The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 343 - AVS Forum
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post #10261 of 10789 Old 10-30-2014, 09:06 AM
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I had an audyssey pro cal from chad b, before and after graphs were very helpful in that, just like a display cal.

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post #10262 of 10789 Old 10-30-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I had an audyssey pro cal from chad b, before and after graphs were very helpful in that, just like a display cal.
Just to be clear, the Audyssey's Pro "Certificate", which shows before and after graphs, can be a bit misleading. The after graph is an interpolation of the expected response after applying the Audyssey filters, not an actual room measurement. In my experience using actual REW measurements after a calibration, the certificate graphs are revealed to not always be accurate. Besides, the certificates are presented with 1/3 smoothing, which masks most of the room response issues anyway.
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post #10263 of 10789 Old 10-30-2014, 11:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mnc View Post
I don't doubt the benefits of measuring room response to improve sound quality, that wasn't my point. I was simply saying that today's Audyssey equipped receivers already contain the necessary software and hardware to do exactly that. I am just wondering why they don't make the option of a "before Audyssey correction" graph on-screen. It should be very simple to have that capability, especially on the higher-end models that use XT32 such as the 4520.
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Let's make sure you understand the "EQ" charts you are referencing, located in the Audyssey setup area in the menu, sub-section "View Results". These charts provide a rough approximation of the correction being applied by the Audyssey filters. They do NOT represent "after" measurements and, IMO, are marginally useful.
It is worth pointing out that the Audyssey EQ graphs in the "Results Check" section of the GUI are in a way a "before correction" graph. What they literally show is the correction being applied, so (assuming you are looking at the EQ graphs for the "Flat" curve) the "before correction" response should essentially be the inverse of the correction graph.

That said, as Jerry implies these graphs should be taken with caution. For one, the resolution is pretty low. Second, it tends to display wonky things below the crossover freq that seem implausible. That said, above the approximate crossover frequency they are a pretty reasonable approximation of the (upside down) before response.
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post #10264 of 10789 Old 10-31-2014, 07:36 AM
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Playing around more last night.

After running audessey the other day everything sounded great. So the person I am that messes with everything and loves bass decided to play.

My sub setup is:

2 Martycubes up front in each corner with inuke 3000dsp
2 Infinity BU 120 (12 inch)

While playing music and movie clips it sounded like I was getting some frequencies cancelation. So for fun I changed the phase on the rear 2 infinity's (they are stacked right behind MLP) to 180 and holy crap. It was like night and day, I measured and picked up about 10-15 db more. I had to set the channel levels down way more.

Before audessey I did not need to set out of phase so why would it need it now? Do you think by the distanced and delays added by audessey?
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post #10265 of 10789 Old 10-31-2014, 07:37 AM
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post #10266 of 10789 Old 10-31-2014, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluer101 View Post
Playing around more last night.

After running audessey the other day everything sounded great. So the person I am that messes with everything and loves bass decided to play.

My sub setup is:

2 Martycubes up front in each corner with inuke 3000dsp
2 Infinity BU 120 (12 inch)

While playing music and movie clips it sounded like I was getting some frequencies cancelation. So for fun I changed the phase on the rear 2 infinity's (they are stacked right behind MLP) to 180 and holy crap. It was like night and day, I measured and picked up about 10-15 db more. I had to set the channel levels down way more.

Before audessey I did not need to set out of phase so why would it need it now? Do you think by the distanced and delays added by audessey?
Changing the sub distances (delays) has the same effect as changing the phase knob on the sub. Audyssey does not always (usually?) get the phase relationship between the subs and the mains right. This is not surprising because Audyssey never measures the mains and subs playing together, so the delays set for the subs are calculated, not measured.

If you have measuring equipment and software like REW, you may care to take a look at the Sub Distance Tweak Guide linked in my sig.
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post #10267 of 10789 Old 10-31-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Changing the sub distances (delays) has the same effect as changing the phase knob on the sub. Audyssey does not always (usually?) get the phase relationship between the subs and the mains right. This is not surprising because Audyssey never measures the mains and subs playing together, so the delays set for the subs are calculated, not measured.

If you have measuring equipment and software like REW, you may care to take a look at the Sub Distance Tweak Guide linked in my sig.
Thank you for the link. After reading that it makes sense.

Before audessey I was using out of box settings which distances are set at 12 ft for everything.

I run the 2 Martycubes as sub 1 and the 2 12's as sub 2. After audessey it set them almost perfect. Sub 1 at around 11 ft and sub 2 around 3 ft.

So if I'm right it has changed the phase by distance which is one third the distance before audessey.

I need to get a mic and rew.
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post #10268 of 10789 Old 10-31-2014, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by bluer101 View Post
Thank you for the link. After reading that it makes sense.

Before audessey I was using out of box settings which distances are set at 12 ft for everything.

I run the 2 Martycubes as sub 1 and the 2 12's as sub 2. After audessey it set them almost perfect. Sub 1 at around 11 ft and sub 2 around 3 ft.

So if I'm right it has changed the phase by distance which is one third the distance before audessey.

I need to get a mic and rew.
Yes - your findings seem logical to me. The main thing is that you have adjusted the phase on one pair of subs and now, it seems, you have all the subs in phase with each other. Your listening tests and SPL readings seem to confirm this.

A suitable mic for REW is about $100 and the software is free. If you decide to go that route, check out AustinJerry's terrific guide to getting set up with REW and how to interpret the results of the measurements. It is the 'bible' for anyone using REW and is a masterly work in itself. It is linked in his sig IIRC.
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post #10269 of 10789 Old 10-31-2014, 08:17 AM
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A Few Questions re 4520 Operation

I have a few questions on a few issues I noticed on how the 4520 operates; I'm thinking that I hopefully missed some setup parameters (or maybe it's just the way it operates):


1. When I turn it on using the red power button on the remote, it seems like all 4 zones are switched on. When I turn it off the front display stays dimly lit reading "Main zone off"; to turn it off completely so that the front display goes dark I need to cycle through the remaining zones and turn them off. Am I doing something wrong?


2. When everything is turned off in my HT (all HDMI connections) setup and I turn on the cable box and the TV using the Comcast remote the receiver turns on too but does now switch to the SAT/CABLE input, so I need to do that too as an extra step. With the 4310 this was working just fine, no switching from whatever HDMI input (or HD/Internet Radio) was previously used to sat/cable was necessary. I have the HDMI CEC turned on (except for power off command).


3. Is the 4520 missing the HDCD decoder (4310 has it, and I think 4311 has it too)?


4. Sometimes it seems like using the TV's remote to send commands like Play, Stop, FF, REW to the DVD/BR player does not work, or it take a few minutes to start working. Did you experience this? (again, the 4310 did not have this problem)


Thanks, F.
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post #10270 of 10789 Old 10-31-2014, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMSone View Post
Just upgraded from the 4310ci to the 4520ci, and boy what an adventure it was. First thing I noticed was the weight, they nearly weighed the same, after removing the 4310ic and installing the 4520ci and running the audyssey calibration I was VERY disappointed by what I was hearing. Here is where the adventure began, because I know that this unit should sound better than my old one. My setup: 7.2 Mirage Speakers with 2 Prestige s10 subs, what the 4520ci MultEQ XT 32 did to my subwoofer levels was laughable, -9 -10?! I knew something was odd when during the setup it asked to level EACH sub at 75db, solution, I used the y adapter and manually leveled both subs to 75db and switched back and forth from the y adapter to the dual outputs until each sub calibrated out to the same level witch ended up being -5/-5. After all of that I was still highly disappointed with the sound, the 4520ci MultEQ XT 32 calibration's midrange response was VERY thin! It was like I was using 7 satellite speakers and the bass was still too low.

Now I am very upset, and started thinking how can I get this receiver to sound like my old one, then I had an epiphany, use the 4310ci as a baseline for the 4520ci. The most important variable in the calibration was the microphones, the old mic (DM-A409) proved to be more sensitive, by about 2db. After recalibrating with the old mic, voilĂ , pristine sound, oh then I adjusted each sub by the +2db difference then added 1 more db for effect (-2db each sub) and I was in heaven! The accuracy is unparalleled, I have to towers on the floor and my center is 5ft off the ground and the L-C-R sweeping effect is seamless, actually all channels are! Be sure to adjust your crossovers to your liking and use LFE+Main if your fronts don't produce enough bass for you.

Interestingly, it looks like I think I'm going through a similar experience.


I first calibrated the 4520 with its own mike, and although at first I liked the tight bass, after more auditioning the sound felt too bright with not enough bass.


Then I tried calibrating using the 4310 mike, and the sound it's much more like I was used from the 4310, except for the tighter bass.


Which makes me actually wonder in the end whether the calibration microphones that come with the 4310 and 4520 are really interchangeable or is one of them faulty (at this point I would suspect the 4520's one).


Did you guys have similar experiences?


Thanks again, F.
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post #10271 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 10:35 AM
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I just watched Transformers - Age of Extinction on my PS3/4520 setup in 9.1 configuration. The Front-Wides sounded quite unnatural, to the point of real distraction (imagine an artificial surround mode like 'Concert Hall', with terrible simulated echo, with the channel volume boosted higher than the other channels). This only happened when someone was speaking off-camera to the LEFT or RIGHT (i.e. the Wide channel was correct to be coming alive, but did not blend).

I have never experienced this type of response from the Wide channels - they have always performed very nicely. I have watched only ~16 movies with this setup (some of those were Stereo - expanded to 9.1) but this is a unique case. This disc has Dolby Atmos, with a TrueHD bed for older setups without Atmos. I wonder if this has anything to do with my experience?

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post #10272 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 10:45 AM
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I have DSX (wides and heights) engaged for all non-music sources, all of the time. As a general rule, the wides are never over-exaggerated. Occasionally, usually on a satellite broadcast, DSX adds a bit more reverberation than I like, so I just switch it off.

What I am saying is that I don't think there is an issue with DSX itself, and when DSX sounds bad, it is usually the content being watched. This assumes, of course, that you have a good calibration. The only way to test that out would be to re-run the calibration and watch the same source material again.
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post #10273 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 05:04 PM
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I recently ordered the 4520 from AC4L, got the A stock clearance price. I'm coming from an Onkyo 906 and really looking forward to this! I've loved the Onkyo, but the 8-10 second HDMI handshake, loud relay clicks and heat management issues(also a slowly moving remote volume compared with Denon) had me ready to make the switch. This is quite a thread, I've got some reading to do.
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post #10274 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I recently ordered the 4520 from AC4L, got the A stock clearance price. I'm coming from an Onkyo 906 and really looking forward to this! I've loved the Onkyo, but the 8-10 second HDMI handshake, loud relay clicks and heat management issues(also a slowly moving remote volume compared with Denon) had me ready to make the switch. This is quite a thread, I've got some reading to do.



I would love to hear your thoughts on the 4520, after you get it set up and dialed in to your liking.
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post #10275 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
It is worth pointing out that the Audyssey EQ graphs in the "Results Check" section of the GUI are in a way a "before correction" graph. What they literally show is the correction being applied, so (assuming you are looking at the EQ graphs for the "Flat" curve) the "before correction" response should essentially be the inverse of the correction graph.

That said, as Jerry implies these graphs should be taken with caution. For one, the resolution is pretty low. Second, it tends to display wonky things below the crossover freq that seem implausible. That said, above the approximate crossover frequency they are a pretty reasonable approximation of the (upside down) before response.
When I look at my Results Check, I can't find the Subwoofer graph?

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post #10276 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 08:14 PM
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Why would Audyssey set the F/R speakers to "LARGE" after I manually set them to "SMALL"?

Since I'm running Subwoofers, the Subwoofer Mode is set to "LFE" with the BASS Crossover Frequency set to 120Hz.

What went wrong with Audyssey?
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post #10277 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by herbg View Post
Why would Audyssey set the F/R speakers to "LARGE" after I manually set them to "SMALL"?

Since I'm running Subwoofers, the Subwoofer Mode is set to "LFE" with the BASS Crossover Frequency set to 120Hz.

What went wrong with Audyssey?
Nothing went wrong. Audyssey ignores any settings prior to calibrating. When the calibration completes, simply reset the speakers to small, set a crossover value, e.g. 80Hz, and you are good to go.
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post #10278 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 08:27 PM
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Great! I did exactly that - set them back to SMALL.

I set the LPF for LFE to 120Hz. I noticed you suggested 80Hz?
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post #10279 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herbg View Post
Great! I did exactly that - set them back to SMALL.

I set the LPF for LFE to 120Hz. I noticed you suggested 80Hz?

The subwoofer crossover setting (Speakers->Manual Setting->Crossovers->Individual->Subwoofer) that AustinJerry was referring to is different from the LPF of LFE setting. To start off with, the subwoofer crossover should be set to 80Hz and the LPF of LFE should be set to 120Hz.

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post #10280 of 10789 Old 11-01-2014, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHATTHEDILEO View Post
I just watched Transformers - Age of Extinction on my PS3/4520 setup in 9.1 configuration. The Front-Wides sounded quite unnatural, to the point of real distraction (imagine an artificial surround mode like 'Concert Hall', with terrible simulated echo, with the channel volume boosted higher than the other channels). This only happened when someone was speaking off-camera to the LEFT or RIGHT (i.e. the Wide channel was correct to be coming alive, but did not blend).

I have never experienced this type of response from the Wide channels - they have always performed very nicely. I have watched only ~16 movies with this setup (some of those were Stereo - expanded to 9.1) but this is a unique case. This disc has Dolby Atmos, with a TrueHD bed for older setups without Atmos. I wonder if this has anything to do with my experience?
Just got thru watching this in 3D. I'm running 7.4 with wides right now. I noticed only a few areas where the dialog was to far apart but nothing bad. The whole movie sounded great. This was our first full movie with the 4520ci. The LFE soundtrack is very heavy with this film but great. I keep playing with the subs trim to get a happy medium with 4 subs.
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post #10281 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHATTHEDILEO View Post
I just watched Transformers - Age of Extinction on my PS3/4520 setup in 9.1 configuration. The Front-Wides sounded quite unnatural, to the point of real distraction (imagine an artificial surround mode like 'Concert Hall', with terrible simulated echo, with the channel volume boosted higher than the other channels). This only happened when someone was speaking off-camera to the LEFT or RIGHT (i.e. the Wide channel was correct to be coming alive, but did not blend).

I have never experienced this type of response from the Wide channels - they have always performed very nicely. I have watched only ~16 movies with this setup (some of those were Stereo - expanded to 9.1) but this is a unique case. This disc has Dolby Atmos, with a TrueHD bed for older setups without Atmos. I wonder if this has anything to do with my experience?
I can never use DSX with my WIDES as I find it unnatural. Its a shocker if you ever play any older films that say were shot in 70MM or early CinemascopE, the dialog is played outside of the screen, sooo wrong.....


I will only use NeoX with Denon or THX with Onkyo/Integra, playing this way the WIDES never have any dialog in them. This way they are much more subtle than when played in DSX and that's the way I prefer. I believe Keith (big ears) also prefers not using DSX, for what reasons I'm not sure.
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post #10282 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It's useful to see what Audyssey actually had to contend with.
Hence why I own a minidsp UMIK-1 for REW.
It gives you this and so much more.
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post #10283 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WHATTHEDILEO View Post
I just watched Transformers - Age of Extinction on my PS3/4520 setup in 9.1 configuration. The Front-Wides sounded quite unnatural, to the point of real distraction (imagine an artificial surround mode like 'Concert Hall', with terrible simulated echo, with the channel volume boosted higher than the other channels). This only happened when someone was speaking off-camera to the LEFT or RIGHT (i.e. the Wide channel was correct to be coming alive, but did not blend).

I have never experienced this type of response from the Wide channels - they have always performed very nicely. I have watched only ~16 movies with this setup (some of those were Stereo - expanded to 9.1) but this is a unique case. This disc has Dolby Atmos, with a TrueHD bed for older setups without Atmos. I wonder if this has anything to do with my experience?
I need to switch to PLIIz for tracks like that. With A-DSX that is one thing I don't like with it putting the voices in the heights. I use heights and not wides. Although with BDs and games I can typically run A-DSX without issues. It's TV content that I need to use PLIIz otherwise with A-DSX it can be pretty bad with voices coming from the Heights.

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post #10284 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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If he has the 4520 he can also try Neo:X. PLIIz would keep the wides silent.

He didn't even indicate what surround mode he was using, although given his discription it's safe to say it was DSX as it's the only one that would create that "echo" effect in the wides with dialogue off screen to the left/right.

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post #10285 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 11:26 AM
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Glad to know it wasn't just me.

UPDATE:

The mic provided with the 4310ci (DM-A409) does in fact produce a more accurate calculation. After 2 weeks of tweaking and re-calibrating the mic provided with the 4520ci (ACM1HB) registers a 3db to 4db spike in treble frequencies in the 10khz to 20khz range which would explain the lack of mid-range response I was getting, it also actually had lower mid-range results in the 200hz range. It took a "perfect calibration" to achieve my desired results. I used the mic placement diagram and instructions provided on the Audyssey website http://www.audyssey.com/technologies/multeq/how-to, not the one that is displayed on the 4520ci's initial setup menu. I then used 2 thin wooden planks with holes drilled in them to screw the mic in at the recommended 2ft from the center on both sides, leveled on an ironing board behind the couch. The planks resembled a crucifix where the horizontal plank can be unscrewed and remounted 2ft forward and 1ft back as instructed. After all this was setup, that initial mic position is what determines the speaker distances, figuring that this is basically a numerical calculation, I adjusted the mic slightly until I achieved a TRUE numerical center, L/R fronts (exact same number), L/R surrounds (exact same number), surround backs (exact same number). Now you have to know that this was my intent when mounting my speakers initially, most people choose random spots or have odd shaped rooms.

Another important note was I made sure it was DEAD SILENT, I'm talking about turning the HVAC off, ceiling fan, directv receiver, any eletronic device that was audible. This was also done in the AM hours of the morning where there were no natural or people noises either. I couldn't hear anything but the natural high pitch feedback from my own eardrums. And lastly made sure that both subs reported the same db level. After calibrating the 4520ci this time, I was hearing sounds and effects in movies that I have never heard before, it was very well balanced. I always adjust the bass settings and crossovers to get that big screen effect for movies by enabling LFE+mains and re-adjusting the front and center crossovers to about 80hz. Last thing was increasing the sub level a little and I can't see how I can get it to sound any better. Some movies do have high squealing treble, for those movies i enable the cinema eq in the audio menu. The only occasional adjustment I make is when listening to music, I increase the center channel crossover a little to get a more natural thump from the bass drum (almost any Michael Jackson song excels in this, Man in the Mirror), 100hz usually does the trick.

In conclusion, I feel it took way too much effort to get the sound I was looking for, I had already started an ebay listing to sell this thing, but i think I'm going to stick with it for a while. While I give the sound about a 8.5 out of 10, the features are it's saving grace. Later i'm going to re-calibrate my 4310ci with the 4520ci's mic and hear what that sounds like, because although the bass on the 4520ci is more accurate, the 4310ci still has that classic boom in the bass/subs.
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post #10286 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Nothing went wrong. Audyssey ignores any settings prior to calibrating. When the calibration completes, simply reset the speakers to small, set a crossover value, e.g. 80Hz, and you are good to go.
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Originally Posted by laulau View Post
The subwoofer crossover setting (Speakers->Manual Setting->Crossovers->Individual->Subwoofer) that AustinJerry was referring to is different from the LPF of LFE setting. To start off with, the subwoofer crossover should be set to 80Hz and the LPF of LFE should be set to 120Hz.
Hmmm ... when I go to (Speakers->Manual Setting->Crossovers->Individual), I only see Front @ 40Hz, Center @ 60Hz, Surround @ 40Hz, and Front Height @ 150Hz. No listing for Subwoofer.

When I check (Speakers->Manual Setting->Speaker Config.), I see Front@Small, Center@Small, Subwoofer@1spkr, Surround@Small, Front Height@Small.

Why no crossover setting for the Subwoofer?
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post #10287 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 02:35 PM
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^^
everything crosses TO the subwoofer. I think maybe the LPF (low pass filter) for LFE limits the high frequencies that can go to to the subwoofer, but the LFE channel doesn't generally contain content that would have to crossover to the other speakers.
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post #10288 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 02:36 PM
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Subwoofer mode and the LPF for LFE setting is separate from the normal crossover settings for speakers, and in its own sub menu labeled bass.

It is in:
Menu-> speakers -> manual -> bass
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post #10289 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 03:01 PM
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Subwoofer mode and the LPF for LFE setting is separate from the normal crossover settings for speakers, and in its own sub menu labeled bass.

It is in:
Menu-> speakers -> manual -> bass
TorTorden, you are only confusing things. The LPF for LFE is a low pass filter that affects only the LFE channel, and restricts what frequencies that are in the LFE channel from being passed to the sub.

In addition to LFE signals, the subs receive re-directed bass from all channels set to "small". The frequency at which this re-direction occurs is the crossover identified in the AVR as Front, Center, Surround, etc. IOW, a Front crossover of 80Hz is a crossover between the Front speakers and the sub. That is why you don't see a crossover for the sub, because what nonsense would a sub to sub crossover be?

The AVR manufacturers have done their customers a huge injustice by including the LPF for LFE setting, because it is the most misunderstood setting.
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post #10290 of 10789 Old 11-02-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
TorTorden, you are only confusing things. The LPF for LFE is a low pass filter that affects only the LFE channel, and restricts what frequencies that are in the LFE channel from being passed to the sub.

In addition to LFE signals, the subs receive re-directed bass from all channels set to "small". The frequency at which this re-direction occurs is the crossover identified in the AVR as Front, Center, Surround, etc. IOW, a Front crossover of 80Hz is a crossover between the Front speakers and the sub. That is why you don't see a crossover for the sub, because what nonsense would a sub to sub crossover be?

The AVR manufacturers have done their customers a huge injustice by including the LPF for LFE setting, because it is the most misunderstood setting.
OK ... now that we've established that there is no Subwoofer Crossover setting, should the Individual Speaker Selection Crossovers remain at the current settings? Or, should I switch to "ALL" and select the 80Hz setting.

BTW, I lowered the LPF for LFE to 100Hz (there seems to be some merit in seeking something between 120Hz and 80Hz).
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