The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 346 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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post #10351 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I do the same (switch off noisy stuff before running Audyssey), but here's the question I have. When we listen to our systems, we don't put them off, so should'nt the calibration (Audyssey in this case) should factor in those ambient noises. If not then it's kind of dumb.
I've always wondered the same thing.
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post #10352 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
I do the same (switch off noisy stuff before running Audyssey), but here's the question I have. When we listen to our systems, we don't put them off, so should'nt the calibration (Audyssey in this case) should factor in those ambient noises. If not then it's kind of dumb.

I think you are missing the point of room correction and why it needs to be quiet. The fridge is not the same affect as the couch being in a certain spot, or the shape of the room.
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post #10353 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave_A_Anderson View Post
Anyway, not sure how the compensation works but true noise cancellation requires real-time sampling of that noise and real-time phase adjustment to consistently output the inverse waveform. I suspect Audyssey just does a static boost/cut of various frequencies based on the cal.


Yes.I know it's not watching for noise when you are "watching" the movie.
I am just saying that it has it's signature chirp and it should measure only that, discarding any other junk that came along.
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post #10354 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 06:52 PM
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Chris from Audyssey has said in the past that as long as you don't get an error from ambient noise, the calibration is good. It listens for the sweep in the measurement window and calibrates based on that.

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post #10355 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by jpco View Post
Chris from Audyssey has said in the past that as long as you don't get an error from ambient noise, the calibration is good. It listens for the sweep in the measurement window and calibrates based on that.
This makes more sense. But then why there is a big hoopla about making it quiet while running Audyssey.
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post #10356 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
This makes more sense. But then why there is a big hoopla about making it quiet while running Audyssey.
Partly because there's a difference between constant ambient noise (perhaps a mechanical clock ticking) and noise from things that aren't always on (such as the heat/AC or a refrigerator, which cycle). I try to do calibrations while things that aren't constantly on aren't making noise. And I definitely try to do it when there isn't much traffic out on the street - a loud Harley going by could potentially screw up the calibration.
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post #10357 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
This makes more sense. But then why there is a big hoopla about making it quiet while running Audyssey.
Just a guess...

Because the noise is picked up by the microphone so Audyssey figures the speakers are putting out a stronger sound at that frequency as it sweeps through that area and reduces the gain so its flat relative to that moment in time... except the real signal will now be reduced in that frequency area and it will not be as loud as it should be dependent upon how loud the outside sound was.

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post #10358 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 08:25 PM
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^^ Guys,

Keith Barnes have put together a wonderful FAQ on Audyssey here: "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Ambient noise issues are explained in here: b)2. Why is Audyssey reporting 'Ambient Noise Too High'?
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post #10359 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
Just a guess...

Because the noise is picked up by the microphone so Audyssey figures the speakers are putting out a stronger sound at that frequency as it sweeps through that area and reduces the gain so its flat relative to that moment in time... except the real signal will now be reduced in that frequency area and it will not be as loud as it should be dependent upon how loud the outside sound was.

If I'm wrong one of our experts will correct me.
As I said, it produces and chirp and that's what it looks to measure. Any noise with the same pattern (e.g. you take hammer and beat it on the wood while Audyssey) might cause the issue. But the random noises in our daily life (fridge compressor, HVAC, kids yelling) should never cause any issue to Audyssey. If it does, then there seems a design flaw.. (I don't think Audyssey says anything, it just recommends to keep it at normal and not too noisy. It may be some folks who have fallen for that idea of super quiet calibration). Just my 2 cents.
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post #10360 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 08:52 PM
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I don't think anyone is advocating a "super quiet" calibration. But is seems like common sense to me to go to reasonable efforts to keep the noise levels low while a calibration is in progress. For example, you wouldn't want your kids playing cops and robbers in the same room while you are calibrating. I think we are splitting hairs here, so can we all come to a reasonable agreement and move on?
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post #10361 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I don't think anyone is advocating a "super quiet" calibration. But is seems like common sense to me to go to reasonable efforts to keep the noise levels low while a calibration is in progress. For example, you wouldn't want your kids playing cops and robbers in the same room while you are calibrating. I think we are splitting hairs here, so can we all come to a reasonable agreement and move on?
Yes, Sure. The kids yelling may be extreme in my statement. But putting everything else off in your house was another extreme..
So keep it "normal" during calibration.. is the message..
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post #10362 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 09:30 PM
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I unplug my fridge when doing an Audyssey calibration. ...Even my halogen lights, for good measure.

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post #10363 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 09:32 PM
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Thanks for sharing that, Bob, very useful.
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post #10364 of 13495 Old 11-09-2014, 10:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
^^ Guys,

Keith Barnes have put together a wonderful FAQ on Audyssey here: "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #51779)

Ambient noise issues are explained in here: b)2. Why is Audyssey reporting 'Ambient Noise Too High'?

@steveting99 , your links seem to be broken (probably during the big forum upgrade). Here are the ones that work for me:

Audyssey FAQ

Ambient Noise Too High

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post #10365 of 13495 Old 11-10-2014, 02:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaranddeeman View Post
As I said, it produces and chirp and that's what it looks to measure. Any noise with the same pattern (e.g. you take hammer and beat it on the wood while Audyssey) might cause the issue. But the random noises in our daily life (fridge compressor, HVAC, kids yelling) should never cause any issue to Audyssey. If it does, then there seems a design flaw.. (I don't think Audyssey says anything, it just recommends to keep it at normal and not too noisy. It may be some folks who have fallen for that idea of super quiet calibration). Just my 2 cents.
The following is taken from the Denon 4520 manual on Audyssey calibration:

Make the room as quiet as possible. Background noise can disrupt
the room measurements. Close windows and turn off the power on
electronic devices (TVs, radios, air conditioners, fluorescent lights,
etc.). The measurements could be affected by the sounds emitted
by such devices.
• During the measurement process, place cell phones outside the
listening room. Cell phone signals could disrupt the measurements.

I think I would tend to follow what Denon says about the situation, they even say keep cell phones outside the listening room. Is it that hard to turn off the fridge and furnace? My fridge, btw, is in the same basic space, albeit on a higher split level. The space measures about 14' x 45', including the upper level.

Anyway, got the calibration done, and it really is impressive! It's very dynamic and clear, and the dialogue is very clear compared with the Onkyo it replaced. Color me happy!
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post #10366 of 13495 Old 11-10-2014, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
The following is taken from the Denon 4520 manual on Audyssey calibration:

Make the room as quiet as possible. Background noise can disrupt
the room measurements. Close windows and turn off the power on
electronic devices (TVs, radios, air conditioners, fluorescent lights,
etc.). The measurements could be affected by the sounds emitted
by such devices.
• During the measurement process, place cell phones outside the
listening room. Cell phone signals could disrupt the measurements.

I think I would tend to follow what Denon says about the situation, they even say keep cell phones outside the listening room. Is it that hard to turn off the fridge and furnace? My fridge, btw, is in the same basic space, albeit on a higher split level. The space measures about 14' x 45', including the upper level.

Anyway, got the calibration done, and it really is impressive! It's very dynamic and clear, and the dialogue is very clear compared with the Onkyo it replaced. Color me happy!
I even leave the room during the calibration, and only pop my head in to keep it moving along after each mic position measurement is finished. I also have been please with the results !


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post #10367 of 13495 Old 11-10-2014, 03:40 PM - Thread Starter
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The official Audyssey position is that if you don't get an "Ambient Noise" error, then everything is hunky dory. The reason is repeats the "pings" 10 times is to filter out any spurious noises (e.g. a dog barking outside) and also increase the SNR. If it doesn't hear enough SNR (e.g. if there is a loud constant ambient noise like a 50dB+ HVAC hum) it will repeat the ping for that channel again, but louder, and can do so three times (progressively louder) until it achieves sufficient SNR.

The idea is that, with repeated pings and sufficient SNR, the algorithm can "hear through" any spurious or ambient noises and actually analyze the room acoustics.

Now, of course, it's an automated system, and automated systems can be fooled, so it seems like best practice to reduce potential interferences as much as possible. Audyssey may claim that the MultEQ algorithm is "smart" enough to "hear through" the hum of your HVAC or fridge compressor, but might as well be extra careful. Personally, I used to be more anal about it, unplugging the fridge, the cat fountain, the ticking clock in the kitchen, etc. but nowadays (blame my two small daughters) I'm lazier and just run it. I can't say I can hear any difference.
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post #10368 of 13495 Old 11-10-2014, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Thanks for sharing that, Bob, very useful.
You're very welcome Jerry. ...The fridge's motor is very noisy (older model too).

My fridge is only ten feet from the MLP. ...A full size fridge. When I unplug it I got silence (good for Audyssey).

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Last edited by NorthSky; 11-10-2014 at 07:30 PM.
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post #10369 of 13495 Old 11-10-2014, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The official Audyssey position is that if you don't get an "Ambient Noise" error, then everything is hunky dory. The reason is repeats the "pings" 10 times is to filter out any spurious noises (e.g. a dog barking outside) and also increase the SNR. If it doesn't hear enough SNR (e.g. if there is a loud constant ambient noise like a 50dB+ HVAC hum) it will repeat the ping for that channel again, but louder, and can do so three times (progressively louder) until it achieves sufficient SNR.

The idea is that, with repeated pings and sufficient SNR, the algorithm can "hear through" any spurious or ambient noises and actually analyze the room acoustics.

Now, of course, it's an automated system, and automated systems can be fooled, so it seems like best practice to reduce potential interferences as much as possible. Audyssey may claim that the MultEQ algorithm is "smart" enough to "hear through" the hum of your HVAC or fridge compressor, but might as well be extra careful. Personally, I used to be more anal about it, unplugging the fridge, the cat fountain, the ticking clock in the kitchen, etc. but nowadays (blame my two small daughters) I'm lazier and just run it. I can't say I can hear any difference.
Thank you. This is what is expected from a decent software... (Having said that I do follow what everyone says here.. even leaving the room.. )
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post #10370 of 13495 Old 11-10-2014, 07:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
The following is taken from the Denon 4520 manual on Audyssey calibration:

Make the room as quiet as possible. Background noise can disrupt
the room measurements. Close windows and turn off the power on
electronic devices (TVs, radios, air conditioners, fluorescent lights,
etc.). The measurements could be affected by the sounds emitted
by such devices.
• During the measurement process, place cell phones outside the
listening room. Cell phone signals could disrupt the measurements.


I think I would tend to follow what Denon says about the situation, they even say keep cell phones outside the listening room. Is it that hard to turn off the fridge and furnace? My fridge, btw, is in the same basic space, albeit on a higher split level. The space measures about 14' x 45', including the upper level.
Excellent, and Denon is right, and Chris is right too. ...Just take an SPL measurement of your fridge when its motor kicks in and is running. ...You'll see how loud it is.

And don't leave your cell phone on your coffee table when making Audyssey measurements.
Put it in another room, and shut it down (power Off).

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post #10371 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Excellent, and Denon is right, and Chris is right too. ...Just take an SPL measurement of your fridge when its motor kicks in and is running. ...You'll see how loud it is.

And don't leave your cell phone on your coffee table when making Audyssey measurements.
Put it in another room, and shut it down (power Off).
I have measured my fridge, and that is why I cut it off

Also, cell phone is always on silent and I stand off to the side when running measurements.

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post #10372 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 07:06 AM
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4520 Audio Issue

Recently, I have started experiencing an occasional, intermittent issue with the center channel audio on my 4520. The audio fades in and out. So you can understand what I am talking about, I made this short audio clip while I was experiencing the problem: Center channel audio

I am usually pretty good at using the process of elimination to isolate root cause. Here are the steps I have taken:

- Tried a deep processor reset (even multiple times, as JD often recommends).
- Tried a different speaker cable.
- Tried a different audio cable between the 4520's pre-out and my XPA-3 power amp.
- Checked all connections closely to rule out a bad connection or a corroded terminal.
- Switched center channel cable on the XPA-3 to a different channel to rule out a bad amp on the XPA-3.

If you listen to the audio clip, it doesn't sound like the speaker itself is going bad. A failing speaker normally would not fade in and out. And I don't think it is a source component.

I can resolve the problem by simply power-cycling the 4520 and XPA-3, and the center channel audio remains solid for several days before the problem re-occurs. So while annoying, it's not the end of the world (yet).

Anyone else ever experience a similar problem, or does anyone have any other creative trouble-shooting suggestions?

Last edited by AustinJerry; 11-11-2014 at 07:10 AM.
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post #10373 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 09:37 AM
 
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That's an odd one. Another idea might be to use the Denon's internal amp for the center channel to see if the issue still occurs. Perhaps lightly wiggling the center channel RCA cable connector on the Denon side?
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post #10374 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
That's an odd one. Another idea might be to use the Denon's internal amp for the center channel to see if the issue still occurs. Perhaps lightly wiggling the center channel RCA cable connector on the Denon side?
I thought about doing that, to rule out the XPA-3 as the root cause. But I switched the center channel to the right channel's amp, and the problem didn't go away, so I am reasonably sure the issue is with the 4520. And yes, I wiggled the cable, un-plugged and re-seated it, and even replaced it. At this point, I am inclined to think I may have a cold solder connection on the internal board that send the signal to the center channel. The audio fade usually happens soon after I have powered the system on, which may indicate that the connection may improve as the unit heats up.

I think I may call Denon support to see what they say. Thanks for your suggestions!
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post #10375 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 10:33 AM
 
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Yes, I'm pretty sure its with the Denon too, I'm simply wondering if using the Denon's internal amp would bypass the issue.
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post #10376 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
4520 Audio Issue

Recently, I have started experiencing an occasional, intermittent issue with the center channel audio on my 4520. The audio fades in and out. So you can understand what I am talking about, I made this short audio clip while I was experiencing the problem: Center channel audio

I am usually pretty good at using the process of elimination to isolate root cause. Here are the steps I have taken:

- Tried a deep processor reset (even multiple times, as JD often recommends).
- Tried a different speaker cable.
- Tried a different audio cable between the 4520's pre-out and my XPA-3 power amp.
- Checked all connections closely to rule out a bad connection or a corroded terminal.
- Switched center channel cable on the XPA-3 to a different channel to rule out a bad amp on the XPA-3.

If you listen to the audio clip, it doesn't sound like the speaker itself is going bad. A failing speaker normally would not fade in and out. And I don't think it is a source component.

I can resolve the problem by simply power-cycling the 4520 and XPA-3, and the center channel audio remains solid for several days before the problem re-occurs. So while annoying, it's not the end of the world (yet).

Anyone else ever experience a similar problem, or does anyone have any other creative trouble-shooting suggestions?

I've never heard of that happening. You might want to catch up on some silent movies while waiting for Denon to figure this out .

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post #10377 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Yes, I'm pretty sure its with the Denon too, I'm simply wondering if using the Denon's internal amp would bypass the issue.
You have a good point. Using the internal amp will bypass the pre-out circuitry, which is where the problem may be. I opened a case with Denon. Depending on their response, I think the test you are proposing may be worthwhile.
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post #10378 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 12:28 PM
 
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I just spent about an hour listening to some old school jazz as well as some Harry Connick and Diana Krall, in various modes. I'm really impressed, with my Onkyo 876 and Outlaw 7125 music was a treat. But with XT32 and the 4520, the results are simply better! The amp section of the 4520 seems as dynamic as the 7125, though the Onkyo's pre section might have had something to say about that. Anyway, what I noticed about the 7125 was better imaging than the Onkyo's amps. But this Denon is in another league altogether.

I was initially put off a little by the lighter weight of the Denon, but now hearing it is all I needed to do. This thing is really impressive.
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post #10379 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I just spent about an hour listening to some old school jazz as well as some Harry Connick and Diana Krall, in various modes. I'm really impressed, with my Onkyo 876 and Outlaw 7125 music was a treat. But with XT32 and the 4520, the results are simply better! The amp section of the 4520 seems as dynamic as the 7125, though the Onkyo's pre section might have had something to say about that. Anyway, what I noticed about the 7125 was better imaging than the Onkyo's amps. But this Denon is in another league altogether.

I was initially put off a little by the lighter weight of the Denon, but now hearing it is all I needed to do. This thing is really impressive.
Are you still using the Outlaw 7125 or did you replace it with the 4520?
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post #10380 of 13495 Old 11-11-2014, 12:45 PM
 
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It's the 4520 only, no 7125. I would say that my speakers are not a tough load, all 8 ohm and all fairly efficient. Paradigm monitors and Totem Lynks in a 7.1 configuration. When I calibrated, the Denon told me to turn down the volume on the sub before starting and the sub is really well integrated now, better than before certainly.
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