The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 352 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #10531 of 11906 Old 11-18-2014, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Read what he wrote again: 3dB increase = approximately double the POWER. Not double the loudness (which as you correctly note is generally thought of as ~10dB increase in SPL).

So, in other words, if you are using 50 w/ch to power your speakrs to 90dB, it would take about 100 w/ch to raise the volume to 93dB.

The dB scale is logarithmic with respect to power, so a 10dB increase = 10x the power. If you interpolate that exponential function you get the approximate 3dB / 2x the power estimate.
What he wrote in the 3rd paragraph of post #10518 is "Also remember that you need to double the power from the amp to get a 3dB increase in loudness," and thats why I asked for clarification.I am aware that 3dB is a doubling of the POWER and 10dB is on order of magnitude increase, i.e. 10 times. I do remember that much from my working days :-) However I was involved in the microwave and digital/analog control area; Thanks for the note, regarding the SPL relationship.

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post #10532 of 11906 Old 11-18-2014, 03:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the confusion is the imprecise use of the word "loudness". He was intending it to mean "SPL increase" (as implied by the use of the phrase "3dB increase in") and you were thinking of it in the sense of "perceived loudness".

I think we're all sorted now
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post #10533 of 11906 Old 11-18-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluer101 View Post
I listen to blurays right around -15 to -10 on MV.

The question is how many feet are you guys at MLP to front sound stage, LCR?

My L/R are 8 ft from MLP ears and center is 7.5 ft from MPL ears. Right now my room is wide vs long until I build my dedicated room.
Same for me as well, well MV wise, I'm about 8 feet from R\L as well, I however don't have much width in my barely 10m2 room (aprox 30 square feet) so my channel volumes for the fronts are at about -9 and -9.5 (the right and left walls are of different construction, keep forgetting which goes which way.)
I normally stay around -16 -14 for bd's (my old pioneer would shake the house at -18, but didn't handle calibrating for my small room and it's many severe modes)

At those levels I have measured well over 105db at my listening position but that might be with the old receiver, not sure if I have tested that with the denon yet, but just guessing at -14 most bass impulses would easily hit that mark np. Depends of course on the movie\source as much as anything since they are hardly mixed equally.
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post #10534 of 11906 Old 11-18-2014, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I think the confusion is the imprecise use of the word "loudness". He was intending it to mean "SPL increase" (as implied by the use of the phrase "3dB increase in") and you were thinking of it in the sense of "perceived loudness".

I think we're all sorted now
Thanks BP,

Makes more sense now

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post #10535 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 02:52 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Do you like repeating yourself? The issue is whether the 5200 is the ONLY Denon AVR made in Japan. Not that I really care, but you seem pretty interested in these things, so I thought you might know. Or not.
I repeated it because you said you didn’t know if the 5200 was made in Japan after I'd told you it was. It was you who brought up the subject of whether being made in Japan was significant (I don't believe it is). But then you made a comment that the 4520 was the only unit made in Japan, which is not correct. Hope that clarifies things.
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post #10536 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 02:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Matt2026 View Post
Hi Keith,

It has been my long held understanding that in order to get a perceived doubling of loudness, to the human ear, requires a power increase of 10dB, i.e. 10 times more power. Or maybe your 3dB is in reference to SPL, which I am rather ignorant about?

Am I misinformed or interpreting incorrectly what you wrote?

Thanks for all your input on the forum, a true asset
Two different things. Doubling amplification power gives a 3dB increase in SPL. To get a perceived doubling of loudness, you need a 10dB increase.

Thanks for the kind remarks BTW - appreciated.
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post #10537 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 03:22 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Validity of Japan mattering in build quality is little to none. More like comfort food.
Agreed - what matters is how well a unit is made, not where it was made.
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post #10538 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Myself, I have higher than average efficiency front speakers, but I still use rather big external amps to make sure the have power enough. Aim for me always was to make it to 120dB without clipping... even if it's just a single transient lasting a few milliseconds that needed all that power.
There's certainly some comfort to be gained from knowing you always have at least as much power as you need. But it can be an expensive route to follow, and if resources need to be prioritised then using the internal amps can be a money-saver, with no detriment to system performance, so long as basic principles are understood and implemented. You have paid quite a lot for the comfort of knowing you can hit 120dB, even though you probably do it very rarely, if ever. I see where you are coming from though and am not disagreeing

On the topic of sensitive speakers, I have long since thought that very sensitive speakers often have a terrific dynamism to them and I’d always recommend people give consideration to the sensitivity of their speakers (along with other factors of course).
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post #10539 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 04:33 AM
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I also have an emotiva xpa 5, currently use it as an xpa 3, so channel 2 and 4 is unused (run my sides from the avr direct)
I bought the emo since with my previous pioneer elite lost all dynamism and started sounding loud and shrill in movies at just past -20 mv. The emo was a noticeable immidiate improvement , but with this denon the difference of using the emo or the internals where negligible at best even at say mv -14, I might perceive the center and speach just a touch more legible, but that might just be in my own perception.

I keep it since I wouldn't get much from it (1gen xpa5) and selling would be a hassle (its to heavy to ship normally) and it wouldn't get me much. And having the extra peace of mind in regards to surplus power and wattage is well worth it, and with Atmos coming up having a few extra amplification channels around could be nothing but handy :-D

In my testing I also discovered that for the sound to mesh while switching between the internals and the xpa required a full and complete recalibration, just checking levels did not do it all.
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post #10540 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
You have paid quite a lot for the comfort of knowing you can hit 120dB, even though you probably do it very rarely, if ever. I see where you are coming from though and am not disagreeing

On the topic of sensitive speakers, I have long since thought that very sensitive speakers often have a terrific dynamism to them and I’d always recommend people give consideration to the sensitivity of their speakers (along with other factors of course).
Well, my dB-meter has indicated overload momentarily when playing dynamic music loud, and that's 120, so it's been done and probably will again - but far far far from frequently.

They aren't THAT sensitive, either 92 or 94,don't remember for sure, but I also know they are conservatively spec:ed (they aren't measured at 1m but at 3 and then re-calculated if my memory serves me).
Most importantly is that they are rated to play above 120dB... Not all speakers can take all that power just because you have it at hand.
So at all normal usages, they are more or less idling.

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post #10541 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Nightlord View Post
Well, my dB-meter has indicated overload momentarily when playing dynamic music loud, and that's 120, so it's been done and probably will again - but far far far from frequently.


They aren't THAT sensitive, either 92 or 94,don't remember for sure, but I also know they are conservatively spec:ed (they aren't measured at 1m but at 3 and then re-calculated if my memory serves me).
Most importantly is that they are rated to play above 120dB... Not all speakers can take all that power just because you have it at hand.
So at all normal usages, they are more or less idling.

Reader alert! This post contains the dreaded car analogy.


Idling is good. I haven't been quite as thoroughly scientific about it as you, but my own system can loaf along at -5db on the MV all night and never sounds strained in any way, nor even especially 'loud', so we are probably achieving the same sort of outcome. I am using all-external amps as it happens - mainly because I already have them from when I had difficult-to-drive 'audiophile' speakers of below average sensitivity. In some ways, it's like having a really big engine in your car - you may never go faster than the guy in the Prius, but it's good to know the power is there if you ever need it. A costly way to go about things though, as I said before
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post #10542 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
I also have an emotiva xpa 5, currently use it as an xpa 3, so channel 2 and 4 is unused (run my sides from the avr direct)
I bought the emo since with my previous pioneer elite lost all dynamism and started sounding loud and shrill in movies at just past -20 mv. The emo was a noticeable immidiate improvement , but with this denon the difference of using the emo or the internals where negligible at best even at say mv -14, I might perceive the center and speach just a touch more legible, but that might just be in my own perception.

I keep it since I wouldn't get much from it (1gen xpa5) and selling would be a hassle (its to heavy to ship normally) and it wouldn't get me much. And having the extra peace of mind in regards to surplus power and wattage is well worth it, and with Atmos coming up having a few extra amplification channels around could be nothing but handy :-D

In my testing I also discovered that for the sound to mesh while switching between the internals and the xpa required a full and complete recalibration, just checking levels did not do it all.
This has been my experience as well, going from an Outlaw 7125 and the 4520's amp section. I'm not missing any dynamics, and the imaging is better. That may be the XT32. Aside from those 2 items, movie soundtracks are now much better over the MultEQ XT in the Onkyo. Big improvement, and the sub is integrated much better as well. The Denon 4520 is really quite a receiver!
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post #10543 of 11906 Old 11-19-2014, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Reader alert! This post contains the dreaded car analogy.


Idling is good. I haven't been quite as thoroughly scientific about it as you, but my own system can loaf along at -5db on the MV all night and never sounds strained in any way, nor even especially 'loud', so we are probably achieving the same sort of outcome. I am using all-external amps as it happens - mainly because I already have them from when I had difficult-to-drive 'audiophile' speakers of below average sensitivity. In some ways, it's like having a really big engine in your car - you may never go faster than the guy in the Prius, but it's good to know the power is there if you ever need it. A costly way to go about things though, as I said before
Yeah, jam the accelerator to the floor.... YeHaaaaa



Honest officer I was only doing 105SPL
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post #10544 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 10:53 AM
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Quick question about network switch.

Does the receiver have to be on for this to work.
I know it's probably been answered but I'm on the cell phone and can't search easily.

Thanks
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post #10545 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 10:57 AM
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Hi guys,

Am I right reading in the first few post that my AVR 4520 can't utilise the separate 2 channel setup without having a completly separate set of front speakers? Who would have two different sets of floor standers in the average front room anyway?
Both Denon customer support and myself having been tring to understand why the option is grey'd out on mine since Septemebr and there it is in writing in the "differences post"???
I upgraded from a AVR 3808 and now I find out that it's taking a back set here!?

I run a 5.2 setup and was quit capable of having separate 2 channel settings for music on my 3808 why can't my 4520 do what must be a simple thing (firmware wise)

I have Jonny from Denon UK stumped as well and he's even spoken to Denon in Germany about this and they don't even seem to be aware of this issue which is clearly written at the beginning of this thread.
Confused?

James
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post #10546 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Quick question about network switch.

Does the receiver have to be on for this to work.
I know it's probably been answered but I'm on the cell phone and can't search easily.

Thanks
You need to leave network control on in the menu. This uses a little more power but still in standby.
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post #10547 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by jameswtaylor View Post
Hi guys,

Am I right reading in the first few post that my AVR 4520 can't utilise the separate 2 channel setup without having a completly separate set of front speakers? Who would have two different sets of floor standers in the average front room anyway?
Both Denon customer support and myself having been tring to understand why the option is grey'd out on mine since Septemebr and there it is in writing in the "differences post"???
I upgraded from a AVR 3808 and now I find out that it's taking a back set here!?

I run a 5.2 setup and was quit capable of having separate 2 channel settings for music on my 3808 why can't my 4520 do what must be a simple thing (firmware wise)

I have Jonny from Denon UK stumped as well and he's even spoken to Denon in Germany about this and they don't even seem to be aware of this issue which is clearly written at the beginning of this thread.
Confused?

James
Yup. It's true. Designed for those using a separate set of FL/FR speakers or music listening only. In fact a couple of steps back from your 3808 to include loss of PCM 2.0 via optical/digital coax to Zones 2/3. Both features are expected to return to the new flagship X7200W.
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post #10548 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by jameswtaylor View Post
Hi guys,

Am I right reading in the first few post that my AVR 4520 can't utilise the separate 2 channel setup without having a completly separate set of front speakers? Who would have two different sets of floor standers in the average front room anyway?
Both Denon customer support and myself having been tring to understand why the option is grey'd out on mine since Septemebr and there it is in writing in the "differences post"???
I upgraded from a AVR 3808 and now I find out that it's taking a back set here!?

I run a 5.2 setup and was quit capable of having separate 2 channel settings for music on my 3808 why can't my 4520 do what must be a simple thing (firmware wise)

I have Jonny from Denon UK stumped as well and he's even spoken to Denon in Germany about this and they don't even seem to be aware of this issue which is clearly written at the beginning of this thread.
Confused?

James

If I want to listen to stereo I use direct or pure direct.
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post #10549 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 11:07 AM
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Problem being if I listen in Direct/Pure Direct I get no Sub..
I have the bass managment set to LFE as I find the LFE+main wooly when listening to multichannel SACD/Films etc.
Wood like to set the 2 channel section up so when I'm listening to junk on Spotify I can have it set to LFE+main but then when a film or HQ cd is on it'll keep to the LFE setting?

Does this even make sense?

James
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post #10550 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by bluer101 View Post
You need to leave network control on in the menu. This uses a little more power but still in standby.
Doesn't the 4520 also have an Ethernet Hub instead of a switch? I haven't used an Ethernet hub in seventeen years.
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post #10551 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by jameswtaylor View Post
Problem being if I listen in Direct/Pure Direct I get no Sub..
I have the bass managment set to LFE as I find the LFE+main wooly when listening to multichannel SACD/Films etc.
Wood like to set the 2 channel section up so when I'm listening to junk on Spotify I can have it set to LFE+main but then when a film or HQ cd is on it'll keep to the LFE setting?

Does this even make sense?

James
Have you tried using a separate Quick Select button for each listening mode?
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post #10552 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by bluer101 View Post
You need to leave network control on in the menu. This uses a little more power but still in standby.
Perfect. Thanks
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post #10553 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 12:40 PM
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Doesn't the 4520 also have an Ethernet Hub instead of a switch? I haven't used an Ethernet hub in seventeen years.
Not sure what the difference is. The important point is that if you have other devices plugged into the switch/hub, they will lose their network connectivity if you don't set the AVR network setting to "always on".
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post #10554 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 01:16 PM
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Have you tried using a separate Quick Select button for each listening mode?
Thanks for the suggestion,
Would this save the differance with LFE?
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post #10555 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 01:44 PM
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^^
Not sure, but worth a try.

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post #10556 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 02:38 PM
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Not sure what the difference is. The important point is that if you have other devices plugged into the switch/hub, they will lose their network connectivity if you don't set the AVR network setting to "always on".
An Ethernet hub can't dynamically adjust the bandwidth to each port like an Ethernet switch does.

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post #10557 of 11906 Old 11-20-2014, 04:00 PM
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An Ethernet hub can't dynamically adjust the bandwidth to each port like an Ethernet switch does.
I only run my Oppo 103d from the back of the Denon. I have all my other devices plugged directly to a belkin power line switch.
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post #10558 of 11906 Old 11-21-2014, 06:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
For 5.1 lossless, mine is usally -2.0 to 0.0. For 7.1 lossless, sometimes I have to go to +2.0.

I start each movie around -6.0. I then slowly crank up after a few minutes until I get normal speech at the level I want.
That's exactly where I start and what I do.

Good info from everyone, thanks.
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post #10559 of 11906 Old 11-21-2014, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
It's possible. You might expect a picture glitch if the cable is loose as well as a sound glitch but with HDMI anything is possible. My No 1 rule before doing anything else is always to check cables, and replace the possible culprits too. Speaker cable is less likely a problem as the issue you are having seems to be in the digital area of the unit. But still worth checking just to be sure all is OK.
Nope, the connections are all fine. Looks like it's going to have to be sent in for repairs, because it's still happenning.
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post #10560 of 11906 Old 11-21-2014, 07:51 AM
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New question.

The 4520 replaced my onkyo 876 that had the same HDMI and chip failure problem that everybody elses had. so in essence it died, but it's got a great amp section.

It's my understanding that I can go from the pre-outs on Denon to the multi-channel inputs on the Onkyo and use the Onkyo to drive additional speakers in an 11.2 setup?

Where I'm unclear is what do I do with the volume control on the Onkyo? Do I set it to zero? Does it have any function at all?

Thanks for help peoples!
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