The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 353 - AVS Forum
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post #10561 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Vikkster View Post
New question.

The 4520 replaced my onkyo 876 that had the same HDMI and chip failure problem that everybody elses had. so in essence it died, but it's got a great amp section.

It's my understanding that I can go from the pre-outs on Denon to the multi-channel inputs on the Onkyo and use the Onkyo to drive additional speakers in an 11.2 setup?

Where I'm unclear is what do I do with the volume control on the Onkyo? Do I set it to zero? Does it have any function at all?

Thanks for help peoples!
Yes, as long as you are using the speaker outputs of the Onkyo, you have to use it's volume as well. The Denon volume would have no control over the speakers connected to the Onkyo if you are using Denon pre-outs.

Also, I occasionally get a thread where the most current page will not load and I can only load the next-to-last page, even when I click on the most current page number at the top. It links me to the next to most current page. Anybody else getting this. Therefore, though I am responding to the post above, I have no idea how many other people already responded to it. Let's see what happens when I post.
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post #10562 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 09:35 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Also, I occasionally get a thread where the most current page will not load and I can only load the next-to-last page, even when I click on the most current page number at the top. It links me to the next to most current page. Anybody else getting this. Therefore, though I am responding to the post above, I have no idea how many other people already responded to it. Let's see what happens when I post.
Yes, I see this fairly frequently. I suspect we're actually seeing all the posts, but the forum software mistakenly thinks there's another page. You (and I) might want to check the operations forum to see if anyone has reported this.
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post #10563 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Yes, as long as you are using the speaker outputs of the Onkyo, you have to use it's volume as well. The Denon volume would have no control over the speakers connected to the Onkyo if you are using Denon pre-outs.
Are you sure about that? That would mean that every time you changed the volume on the Denon you would have to seperately change the volume on the Onkyo, in a multi channel system there would be no way to keep the speaker levels calibrated.

Also, you use pre-outs when using a powered sub. If changing the volume level on my Denon had no effect when using pre-outs, then everybody's sub would remain at the same level regarding of the volume level of the other speakers. And that doesn't happen.

I'm sure there's something I'm missing here, but the way you've explained it makes no sense to me.
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post #10564 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Yes, I see this fairly frequently. I suspect we're actually seeing all the posts, but the forum software mistakenly thinks there's another page. You (and I) might want to check the operations forum to see if anyone has reported this.
Yep happening to me too. I can see there is another page but cannot get there until just now.
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post #10565 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikkster View Post
Are you sure about that? That would mean that every time you changed the volume on the Denon you would have to seperately change the volume on the Onkyo, in a multi channel system there would be no way to keep the speaker levels calibrated.

Also, you use pre-outs when using a powered sub. If changing the volume level on my Denon had no effect when using pre-outs, then everybody's sub would remain at the same level regarding of the volume level of the other speakers. And that doesn't happen.

I'm sure there's something I'm missing here, but the way you've explained it makes no sense to me.
You're correct that the Denon preamp outputs are going to be affected by the Denon's volume control, just as the subwoofer output is. Assuming you only want to use the Onkyo's amps, you should be able to set the volume level to one setting on the Onkyo, run a calibration on the Denon, and then adjust the volume control only on the Denon from that point on. The problem with using the Onkyo for its amps is that the signal for the channels going through the Onkyo is now going through 2 preamp stages / volume controls (1 in the Denon, 1 in the Onkyo), which isn't ideal from a sound quality perspective. The end result should be better if you used an actual power amp instead for the extra channels, but that's your call. If it sounds good to you, then that's all that really matters.
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post #10566 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 11:25 AM
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Yep happening to me too. I can see there is another page but cannot get there until just now.
I see this all the time, and I suspect others are seeing it as well.

Unless we report these issues here then it won't get fixed. Make sure you report the platform and operating system you are using to access AVS.
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post #10567 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
You're correct that the Denon preamp outputs are going to be affected by the Denon's volume control, just as the subwoofer output is. Assuming you only want to use the Onkyo's amps, you should be able to set the volume level to one setting on the Onkyo, run a calibration on the Denon, and then adjust the volume control only on the Denon from that point on. The problem with using the Onkyo for its amps is that the signal for the channels going through the Onkyo is now going through 2 preamp stages / volume controls (1 in the Denon, 1 in the Onkyo), which isn't ideal from a sound quality perspective. The end result should be better if you used an actual power amp instead for the extra channels, but that's your call. If it sounds good to you, then that's all that really matters.
Thanks that clears it up.

So in essence it sounds like the volume control on the Onkyo winds up functioning much the same as the gain control would on a powered sub.

Simple enough to set up, so i'll try and see what I hear. Never hurts to try.

Any thought on where the volume should be set on the Onkyo, or doesnt it matter?

Last edited by Vikkster; 11-21-2014 at 12:05 PM.
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post #10568 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 12:09 PM - Thread Starter
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While GSR is technically correct I don't think the concern about the two pre-amps stages is really worth worrying about. For nearly any receiver the multich analog inputs bypass the pre-amp stage and are effectively a straight analog passthrough to the amps. Most of the time only the volume control (both the global volume and the individual channel volumes) is in effect and everything else is bypassed. So in practice it's a non concern because you are getting a "pure" analog path to the amp section. The only thing you have to do is reset the receiver so all channel levels/distances are zeroed out and then set the master volume to 0dB and never touch it again, from that point on the Denon is the preamp and will control the global volume and individual channel volumes.

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post #10569 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikkster View Post
So in essence it sounds like the volume control on the Onkyo winds up functioning much the same as the gain control would on a powered sub.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikkster View Post
Any thought on where the volume should be set on the Onkyo, or doesnt it matter?
That will require some experimentation and I would suggest starting on the low side, but the goal should probably be to set it to a level where the calibrated levels for the speakers you're using it for are about the same as the speakers the Denon is powering.
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post #10570 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post
You're correct that the Denon preamp outputs are going to be affected by the Denon's volume control, just as the subwoofer output is. Assuming you only want to use the Onkyo's amps, you should be able to set the volume level to one setting on the Onkyo, run a calibration on the Denon, and then adjust the volume control only on the Denon from that point on. The problem with using the Onkyo for its amps is that the signal for the channels going through the Onkyo is now going through 2 preamp stages / volume controls (1 in the Denon, 1 in the Onkyo), which isn't ideal from a sound quality perspective. The end result should be better if you used an actual power amp instead for the extra channels, but that's your call. If it sounds good to you, then that's all that really matters.
Whoops, thanks all I didn't quite think it through before posting!
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post #10571 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
While GSR is technically correct I don't think the concern about the two pre-amps stages is really worth worrying about. For nearly any receiver the multich analog inputs bypass the pre-amp stage and are effectively a straight analog passthrough to the amps. Most of the time only the volume control (both the global volume and the individual channel volumes) is in effect and everything else is bypassed. So in practice it's a non concern because you are getting a "pure" analog path to the amp section. The only thing you have to do is reset the receiver so all channel levels/distances are zeroed out and then set the master volume to 0dB and never touch it again, from that point on the Denon is the preamp and will control the global volume and individual channel volumes.
thanks!
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post #10572 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 07:08 PM
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4520 NIB Price Cut @A4L

Accessories4Less has the 4520 new for only 1 Franklin more than the refurbished one.
Too late for me, but I thought other folks might be interested.
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post #10573 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 07:28 PM
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Accessories4Less has the 4520 new for only 1 Franklin more than the refurbished one.
Too late for me, but I thought other folks might be interested.
That is where I got my new one.

65" VT50 / BDP-S7200
Denon AVR-4520CI
Klipsch RF82 II and RC62 II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
Directv HR44-200 / HR24-500
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post #10574 of 10586 Old 11-21-2014, 08:25 PM
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Ditto, I'm enjoying Bourne Legacy right now, this is the best my theater has ever sounded.
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Accessories4Less has the 4520 new for only 1 Franklin more than the refurbished one.
Too late for me, but I thought other folks might be interested.
Got mine from there too. I love mine over my 3806. Just got through watching 22 jump street. Not the best movie for sound but still good. Then played with some good demo disks. This AVR really shines.
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I recently purchased a Denon 4520 along with 3 JTR 212HT's. These speakers are extremely efficient (101db, and some think this is underrated) and when I run Audyssey, it sets the trim levels for these at -12. Is there any way to get these within the correct range? I see the 4529 has pre outs and then external in. Could I run the pre outs in to attenuators that will reduce the signal and then back in?

Thanks
Ray
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post #10577 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 07:46 AM
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
I recently purchased a Denon 4520 along with 3 JTR 212HT's. These speakers are extremely efficient (101db, and some think this is underrated) and when I run Audyssey, it sets the trim levels for these at -12. Is there any way to get these within the correct range? I see the 4529 has pre outs and then external in. Could I run the pre outs in to attenuators that will reduce the signal and then back in?

Thanks
Ray
This is covered in the Audyssey FAQ, here:

e)6. What do I do if my trim levels are at the limits of their adjustment ('maxed out')?
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post #10578 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
While GSR is technically correct I don't think the concern about the two pre-amps stages is really worth worrying about. For nearly any receiver the multich analog inputs bypass the pre-amp stage and are effectively a straight analog passthrough to the amps. Most of the time only the volume control (both the global volume and the individual channel volumes) is in effect and everything else is bypassed. So in practice it's a non concern because you are getting a "pure" analog path to the amp section. The only thing you have to do is reset the receiver so all channel levels/distances are zeroed out and then set the master volume to 0dB and never touch it again, from that point on the Denon is the preamp and will control the global volume and individual channel volumes.
If the 'secondary' unit allows for a MV setting to be set at startup, it would also be a good idea to enable this and set it to 0dB, otherwise every time it powers down and then back up, the MV will need to be reset manually to 0dB to ensure it plays the correct calibrated level on the 'main' unit. An alternative on my old Onkyos was to set the 'power on' volume to 0dB, which accomplishes the same thing.
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post #10579 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 07:53 AM
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Agreed - what matters is how well a unit is made, not where it was made.

and many still have a preference for the items made in Japan and will pay more for them


whether or not its a valid reason
So..maybe its just a perception I liken to buying a house in the "right" neighborhood vs one that is perceived as a step down


I have never seen anyone provide any documentable information that showed a superiority one way or another definitively


based on that...unless someone can post verifiable statistics


Its just an assumption to assume the Chinese made models are the same, better, or worse than the models made in Japan..or vice-versa


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Onkyo 5509 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Yamaha A2010 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 906 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #10580 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I see this all the time, and I suspect others are seeing it as well.

Unless we report these issues here then it won't get fixed. Make sure you report the platform and operating system you are using to access AVS.
Jerry - is that link broken or is it me?
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post #10581 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Vikkster View Post
Nope, the connections are all fine. Looks like it's going to have to be sent in for repairs, because it's still happenning.
I think you're right unfortunately. Seems like you have exhausted all the troubleshooting options. Good luck.
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post #10582 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 08:23 AM
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Jerry - is that link broken or is it me?
It's broken - it's missing the colon after http (http// versus http://).
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post #10583 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Thanks!!

I just used the Disney WOW disc. When I played back the test tones with my MV at 0, the JTR's were at 88db and the other speakers were at 84-85. I am guessing the WOW disc has 85db test tones.

So I will adjust the surrounds up 3db and change my reference offset to -3db?
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post #10584 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by raynist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Thanks!!

I just used the Disney WOW disc. When I played back the test tones with my MV at 0, the JTR's were at 88db and the other speakers were at 84-85. I am guessing the WOW disc has 85db test tones.

So I will adjust the surrounds up 3db and change my reference offset to -3db?
The Ref Offset is in 5db increments so I would level all speakers to 90db using the disc and then offset by 5dB. Your new "reference" will be -5dB on the MV scale.

If you need more offset since you are now effectively limited to 10db (eg for non film sources like video games) you can adjust the input source level which allows up to +\- 12db adjustment for each input.
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post #10585 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 01:18 PM
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It's broken - it's missing the colon after http (http// versus http://).
Sorry, don't know how that's happened. If you still have trouble, the thread is in the Forum Operations area.
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post #10586 of 10586 Old Yesterday, 01:30 PM
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Sorry, don't know how that's happened. If you still have trouble, the thread is in the Forum Operations area.
Here's a (hopefully) fixed link for anyone who is interested.
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