The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 370 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11071 of 11078 Old Today, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I'd also like to hear how Oink came to that conclusion and with what particular Emotiva amp, which speakers and how he did the a/b. When I hooked the 4520 up yesterday I didn't use my power amps and the Denon doesn't seem to have any amp issues so far, but I haven't really cranked it up on familiar materials yet either. I will also be trying the power amps soon to see if there's any difference but I'm doubting it so far.
The Denon's amps don't have "issues," per se.
As far as I can tell, they do exactly what they are supposed to do.
What I am talking about is dynamic audio quality, with clarity and expansion of the sound field that high powered amps can deliver.


I repeat, the Denon's amps do what they are supposed to do....seriously, there isn't anything "wrong" with them.
They are just fine for what Denon intended.

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post #11072 of 11078 Old Today, 02:58 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post
1). It is a simple, non scientific test in my HT with a M&K Sound S150II THX Ultra2 Certified setup.
2) Assuming "pre-amp" mode in the Denon means the internal amps are NOT used.
3) Whether or not the Denon's display/manual is being "honest," I can't vouch for.
I don't care which amp is active...I go with what I hear.
4) BD lossless, of course.
OK thanks. Do you have the answers to the 4 questions I asked? I am wondering if you realise the importance of very precise level-matching and instantaneous switching, for example? If those two things alone are ignored, then, unfortunately, there are no meaningful conclusions which can be drawn from the test undertaken. The reason for the former is that it has been proven beyond doubt that unless units are precisely level matched to +/- 0.5dB, the louder unit will always "sound best" subjectively and will be preferred by a majority of listeners, consistently. And the reason the instantaneous switching is important is that human auditory memory only lasts for 3 or 4 seconds at best - so if the switch between units takes longer than that, then no conclusions at all can be drawn simply because the listener has no idea now what the first unit sounded like.

Of course, people do hear differences between units all the time, but this is almost always because of the improper way in which the tests have been set up. The other factor is inescapable human bias - when we know which unit is playing our biases eliminate the possibility of objectivity. Even when we understand human cognitive bias very well, we cannot control it or eliminate it in our minds as it is a subconscious phenomenon.

Normally none of this matters - if someone believes they hear a difference and comes to the conclusion that one unit "sounds better" than another, that is their own personal business. The problem arises if people spend money based on those (false) beliefs or on the 'recommendations' of others who hold those beliefs. It could be, for example, disastrous, if someone exchanged a perfectly good unit for another because he had been led to believe it sounded better when in fact, measured objectively, it doesn't.

As an aside, salesmen have long since known that customers always prefer the louder unit when they do these random, unscientific tests, and so the practice of nudging up the volume on the more expensive unit is commonplace.
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post #11073 of 11078 Old Today, 03:02 AM
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Originally Posted by oink View Post

The 4520's amps do not produce as dynamic sound as my Emotiva MPS-1.
And, in theory, they shouldn't.
In fact, in theory they should!

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It would be amazing if they did.
It would be even more amazing if they didn't
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post #11074 of 11078 Old Today, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
In fact, in theory they should!



It would be even more amazing if they didn't
I have the schematics of the avr45620's amplifiers that I share here. I have verified that the parts shown in the diagrams are exactly what are in the boards.
In theory, at least, the amplifiers of the avr4520s will not sound better than a pocket radio.
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post #11075 of 11078 Old Today, 07:21 AM
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I have the schematics of the avr45620's amplifiers that I share here. I have verified that the parts shown in the diagrams are exactly what are in the boards.
In theory, at least, the amplifiers of the avr4520s will not sound better than a pocket radio.
That explains why everyone who has this unit describes the sound as "no better than a pocket radio".
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post #11076 of 11078 Old Today, 07:54 AM
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Lol ...I bet the that the internal amps in the 7200 sound better than my own pocket r.a.d.i.o.

* The 4520 receiver has nine internal amps (150 Watts x 9), and it weights less than 40 pounds (36.38 lbs).
/// The main transformer is what, 700VA? (780 Watts). ...And the two main caps; 22,000uF each (71 Volts).
...The heat sinks are made of solid aluminum (2 short ones).
- The bench tests are pretty good. ...Over 100 watts x 7 channels simultaneously (8 Ohms | 0.1% THD). ...Quite powerful amps for a 36 pounds receiver.

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post #11077 of 11078 Old Today, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
OK thanks. Do you have the answers to the 4 questions I asked?
I gave you answers, accept or reject is your option.




Quote:
I am wondering if you realise the importance of very precise level-matching and instantaneous switching for example?
No, of course I don't.




Quote:
human auditory memory only lasts for 3 or 4 seconds at best.
And here I thought I could tell the difference between the voices of Ronald Reagan and Rich Little.



Quote:
Of course, people do hear differences between units all the time, but this is almost always because of the improper way in which the tests have been set up. The other factor is inescapable human bias - when we know which unit is playing our biases eliminate the possibility of objectivity. Even when we understand human cognitive bias very well, we cannot control it or eliminate it in our minds as it is a subconscious phenomenon.

Normally none of this matters - if someone believes they hear a difference and comes to the conclusion that one unit "sounds better" than another, that is their own personal business. The problem arises if people spend money based on those (false) beliefs or on the 'recommendations' of others who hold those beliefs. It could be, for example, disastrous, if someone exchanged a perfectly good unit for another because he had been led to believe it sounded better when in fact, measured objectively, it doesn't.

As an aside, salesmen have long since known that customers always prefer the louder unit when they do these random, unscientific tests, and so the practice of nudging up the volume on the more expensive unit is commonplace.
Yes, I know all about this "phenomenon" or theory.
However, it is important to realize NO ONE can interpret sound waves exactly as another does.
Last I checked, we are all unique.


To say someone can or cannot hear a difference in 2 very different amps is, well.....

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