The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 370 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Baselworld is only a few weeks away. Getting the latest news is easy, Click Here for info on how to join the Watchuseek.com newsletter list. Follow our team for updates featuring event coverage, new product unveilings, watch industry news & more!


Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #11071 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 01:58 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 22,077
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4077 Post(s)
Liked: 3042
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
1). It is a simple, non scientific test in my HT with a M&K Sound S150II THX Ultra2 Certified setup.
2) Assuming "pre-amp" mode in the Denon means the internal amps are NOT used.
3) Whether or not the Denon's display/manual is being "honest," I can't vouch for.
I don't care which amp is active...I go with what I hear.
4) BD lossless, of course.
OK thanks. Do you have the answers to the 4 questions I asked? I am wondering if you realise the importance of very precise level-matching and instantaneous switching, for example? If those two things alone are ignored, then, unfortunately, there are no meaningful conclusions which can be drawn from the test undertaken. The reason for the former is that it has been proven beyond doubt that unless units are precisely level matched to +/- 0.5dB, the louder unit will always "sound best" subjectively and will be preferred by a majority of listeners, consistently. And the reason the instantaneous switching is important is that human auditory memory only lasts for 3 or 4 seconds at best - so if the switch between units takes longer than that, then no conclusions at all can be drawn simply because the listener has no idea now what the first unit sounded like.

Of course, people do hear differences between units all the time, but this is almost always because of the improper way in which the tests have been set up. The other factor is inescapable human bias - when we know which unit is playing our biases eliminate the possibility of objectivity. Even when we understand human cognitive bias very well, we cannot control it or eliminate it in our minds as it is a subconscious phenomenon.

Normally none of this matters - if someone believes they hear a difference and comes to the conclusion that one unit "sounds better" than another, that is their own personal business. The problem arises if people spend money based on those (false) beliefs or on the 'recommendations' of others who hold those beliefs. It could be, for example, disastrous, if someone exchanged a perfectly good unit for another because he had been led to believe it sounded better when in fact, measured objectively, it doesn't.

As an aside, salesmen have long since known that customers always prefer the louder unit when they do these random, unscientific tests, and so the practice of nudging up the volume on the more expensive unit is commonplace.
kbarnes701 is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #11072 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 02:02 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 22,077
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4077 Post(s)
Liked: 3042
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

The 4520's amps do not produce as dynamic sound as my Emotiva MPS-1.
And, in theory, they shouldn't.
In fact, in theory they should!

Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

It would be amazing if they did.
It would be even more amazing if they didn't
kbarnes701 is online now  
post #11073 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 04:27 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
In fact, in theory they should!



It would be even more amazing if they didn't
I have the schematics of the avr45620's amplifiers that I share here. I have verified that the parts shown in the diagrams are exactly what are in the boards.
In theory, at least, the amplifiers of the avr4520s will not sound better than a pocket radio.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	4520.png
Views:	71
Size:	253.8 KB
ID:	501034  
doognam is offline  
post #11074 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 06:21 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 22,077
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4077 Post(s)
Liked: 3042
Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
I have the schematics of the avr45620's amplifiers that I share here. I have verified that the parts shown in the diagrams are exactly what are in the boards.
In theory, at least, the amplifiers of the avr4520s will not sound better than a pocket radio.
That explains why everyone who has this unit describes the sound as "no better than a pocket radio".
kbarnes701 is online now  
post #11075 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 06:54 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 10,519
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4360 Post(s)
Liked: 1694
Lol ...I bet the that the internal amps in the 7200 sound better than my own pocket r.a.d.i.o.

* The 4520 receiver has nine internal amps (150 Watts x 9), and it weights less than 40 pounds (36.38 lbs).
/// The main transformer is what, 700VA? (780 Watts). ...And the two main caps; 22,000uF each (71 Volts).
...The heat sinks are made of solid aluminum (2 short ones).
- The bench tests are pretty good. ...Over 100 watts x 7 channels simultaneously (8 Ohms | 0.1% THD). ...Quite powerful amps for a 36 pounds receiver.

Last edited by NorthSky; 01-25-2015 at 07:53 AM.
NorthSky is offline  
post #11076 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 09:05 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shuloch
Posts: 28,679
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1268 Post(s)
Liked: 1120
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
OK thanks. Do you have the answers to the 4 questions I asked?
I gave you answers, accept or reject is your option.




Quote:
I am wondering if you realise the importance of very precise level-matching and instantaneous switching for example?
No, of course I don't.




Quote:
human auditory memory only lasts for 3 or 4 seconds at best.
And here I thought I could tell the difference between the voices of Ronald Reagan and Rich Little.



Quote:
Of course, people do hear differences between units all the time, but this is almost always because of the improper way in which the tests have been set up. The other factor is inescapable human bias - when we know which unit is playing our biases eliminate the possibility of objectivity. Even when we understand human cognitive bias very well, we cannot control it or eliminate it in our minds as it is a subconscious phenomenon.

Normally none of this matters - if someone believes they hear a difference and comes to the conclusion that one unit "sounds better" than another, that is their own personal business. The problem arises if people spend money based on those (false) beliefs or on the 'recommendations' of others who hold those beliefs. It could be, for example, disastrous, if someone exchanged a perfectly good unit for another because he had been led to believe it sounded better when in fact, measured objectively, it doesn't.

As an aside, salesmen have long since known that customers always prefer the louder unit when they do these random, unscientific tests, and so the practice of nudging up the volume on the more expensive unit is commonplace.
Yes, I know all about this "phenomenon" or theory.
However, it is important to realize NO ONE can interpret sound waves exactly as another does.
Last I checked, we are all unique.


To say someone can or cannot hear a difference in 2 very different amps is, well.....

Only girly-men push The Red Button.
oink is offline  
post #11077 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 10:00 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 22,077
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4077 Post(s)
Liked: 3042
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

And here I thought I could tell the difference between the voices of Ronald Reagan and Rich Little.
Auditory memory isn't what that is about. Google has plenty of information on it - it is a well understood psychological phenomenon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post

Yes, I know all about this "phenomenon" or theory.
However, it is important to realize NO ONE can interpret sound waves exactly as another does.
Last I checked, we are all unique.
It isn’t a theory. It is a fact, generally accepted in scientific circles, with huge amounts of research behind it. Again, google has tons of information on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
To say someone can or cannot hear a difference in 2 very different amps is, well.....
Good job I didn't say that then But your random listening tests, which fly in the face of all accepted science, mean that you cannot hear the differences you believe you hear, other than where any differences exist as a result solely of the flawed nature of the tests.
kbarnes701 is online now  
post #11078 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 10:36 AM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 8,866
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1198 Post(s)
Liked: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
The Denon's amps don't have "issues," per se.
As far as I can tell, they do exactly what they are supposed to do.
What I am talking about is dynamic audio quality, with clarity and expansion of the sound field that high powered amps can deliver.


I repeat, the Denon's amps do what they are supposed to do....seriously, there isn't anything "wrong" with them.
They are just fine for what Denon intended.
But your amps aren't as high powered as the ones I was using so that's not it. Expansion of the sound field? Is that like airier highs and tighter bass and better sex when she sees your sexy blue lights? LOL! Sounds like you just hooked up your old amp and went merrily on your way in amp fantasy world....
Craig Peer and kbarnes701 like this.
lovinthehd is online now  
post #11079 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 11:27 AM
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 40
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
Lol ...I bet the that the internal amps in the 7200 sound better than my own pocket r.a.d.i.o.

* The 4520 receiver has nine internal amps (150 Watts x 9), and it weights less than 40 pounds (36.38 lbs).
/// The main transformer is what, 700VA? (780 Watts). ...And the two main caps; 22,000uF each (71 Volts).
...The heat sinks are made of solid aluminum (2 short ones).
- The bench tests are pretty good. ...Over 100 watts x 7 channels simultaneously (8 Ohms | 0.1% THD). ...Quite powerful amps for a 36 pounds receiver.
THD figures may or may not relate to the sound quality of the avr. Different set of harmonic distortions may produce the same THD figure but will produce noticeably different sound qualities.

THD figures are usually arrived at using a single frequency. If real music with a mixture of 20hz-20khz content was used then I would imagine that the magnitude of some harmonic and non-harmonic distortions produced by the 4520 would even exceed 100% of the original signal.

Power and THD of amps do not say much about SQ. Most PA amps with more power and even lower THD figures may not be suitable for serious music-listening in the home.

Last edited by doognam; 01-25-2015 at 11:34 AM. Reason: corrected imprecise description of distortion
doognam is offline  
post #11080 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 11:49 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 22,077
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4077 Post(s)
Liked: 3042
Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
THD figures may or may not relate to the sound quality of the avr. Different set of harmonic distortions may produce the same THD figure but will produce noticeably different sound qualities.

THD figures are usually arrived at using a single frequency. If real music with a mixture of 20hz-20khz content was used then I would imagine that the magnitude of some harmonic and non-harmonic distortions produced by the 4520 would even exceed 100% of the original signal.

Power and THD of amps do not say much about SQ. Most PA amps with more power and even lower THD figures may not be suitable for serious music-listening in the home.
I'd love to see the evidence substantiating those claims.
kbarnes701 is online now  
post #11081 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 12:24 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 10,519
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4360 Post(s)
Liked: 1694
Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
THD figures may or may not relate to the sound quality of the avr. Different set of harmonic distortions may produce the same THD figure but will produce noticeably different sound qualities.

THD figures are usually arrived at using a single frequency. If real music with a mixture of 20hz-20khz content was used then I would imagine that the magnitude of some harmonic and non-harmonic distortions produced by the 4520 would even exceed 100% of the original signal.

Power and THD of amps do not say much about SQ. Most PA amps with more power and even lower THD figures may not be suitable for serious music-listening in the home.
Yes, there is more than THD, there are several other type of distortion.

I was simply referring to those very basic lab tests here: http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...ver-test-bench
NorthSky is offline  
post #11082 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 03:28 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shuloch
Posts: 28,679
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1268 Post(s)
Liked: 1120
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
But your amps aren't as high powered as the ones I was using so that's not it. Expansion of the sound field? Is that like airier highs and tighter bass and better sex when she sees your sexy blue lights? LOL!
Those words are a euphemism of mine for fidelity (more life-like) that sounds as though it comes from within the room itself (ie, actually someone talking in the room), rather than from the speakers themselves.
I don't mean an ACTUAL expansion of the sound field.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Auditory memory isn't what that is about. Google has plenty of information on it - it is a well understood psychological phenomenon.

It isn’t a theory. It is a fact, generally accepted in scientific circles, with huge amounts of research behind it. Again, google has tons of information on it.

Good job I didn't say that then But your random listening tests, which fly in the face of all accepted science, mean that you cannot hear the differences you believe you hear, other than where any differences exist as a result solely of the flawed nature of the tests.
I am not getting into argument over exactly what someone may or may not hear.


If you want to speculate the amps in the 4520 sound as good as the MPS-1 amps, you are welcome to it.

Only girly-men push The Red Button.
oink is offline  
post #11083 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 03:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 8,866
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1198 Post(s)
Liked: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
Those words are a euphemism of mine for fidelity (more life-like) that sounds as though it comes from within the room itself (ie, actually someone talking in the room), rather than from the speakers themselves.
I don't mean an ACTUAL expansion of the sound field.




I am not getting into argument over exactly what someone may or may not hear.


If you want to speculate the amps in the 4520 sound as good as the MPS-1 amps, you are welcome to it.
I'm more curious how it is possible for a power amp to do what you describe rather than the preamp/dsp it is being run by....
lovinthehd is online now  
post #11084 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
AustinJerry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 9,491
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2396 Post(s)
Liked: 1220
AustinJerry is offline  
post #11085 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 04:29 PM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,996
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 385 Post(s)
Liked: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Why can't I find the MPS-1 on the Emotiva site?
Possibly because it's an old model that has been discontinued? A quick Google search found reviews from 2005.

On another note... You guys really ought to lighten up a bit and give oink a break. If he's happy with using his Emotiva amp(s), that's all that really matters. When someone says they did an A/B comparison, it doesn't always mean they followed strict scientific testing. The way he worded the "A&B test" in his post, I took it to mean that he simply tried it both ways. Most people don't have the equipment on hand that would be needed to perform a rigorous scientific A/B test between 2 amps. The follow up posts seem awfully aggressive in telling him that his opinion is wrong and are veering into what really belongs in the Audio Theory forum.
TorTorden likes this.
gsr is offline  
post #11086 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 07:07 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
NorthSky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Canada - West Island: Vancouver, South Direction: Go East
Posts: 10,519
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4360 Post(s)
Liked: 1694
NorthSky is offline  
post #11087 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 07:13 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
oink's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Shuloch
Posts: 28,679
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1268 Post(s)
Liked: 1120
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I'm more curious how it is possible for a power amp to do what you describe rather than the preamp/dsp it is being run by....
No DSP used.
Every output is set in Denon's "Pure Audio" mode.



Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
Possibly because it's an old model that has been discontinued? A quick Google search found reviews from 2005.
Yup, that's the one.


Quote:
On another note... You guys really ought to lighten up a bit and give oink a break. If he's happy with using his Emotiva amp(s), that's all that really matters. When someone says they did an A/B comparison, it doesn't always mean they followed strict scientific testing. The way he worded the "A&B test" in his post, I took it to mean that he simply tried it both ways. Most people don't have the equipment on hand that would be needed to perform a rigorous scientific A/B test between 2 amps. The follow up posts seem awfully aggressive in telling him that his opinion is wrong and are veering into what really belongs in the Audio Theory forum.
Thank you for the kind word.


Please allow me to explain how I did the comparison:
1) Because the 4520 does not have balanced XLR outputs, I used RCAs between the 2.
2) Although my HT room is small, I do have a 7.1 setup, with front speakers 12 ft. away from the listening area.
3) I did not use the Denon's Audyssey room correction software (not opposed to it, someday I'll probably give it try).
4) I used my trusty ol' Radio Shack analog sound meter.
5) I used a BD I am very familiar with (Fellowship of the Ring).
6) I spent an hour switching back and forth between the 2 sets of amps.
7) Afterwards, I asked Ms. Oink to set and listen and tell me which sounded best to her (she is a trained classical musician with perfect pitch).
8) She re-affirmed my impressions.


Guys, I'm not trying to pick a fight....seriously.
There is no need for any panty-bunching.
Just to be clear, I have purchased more Denon equipment in the last 20 years than any other.


I have been a high-fidelity lover for more the 40 years.
I know what my ears tell me.

Only girly-men push The Red Button.
oink is offline  
post #11088 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 07:23 PM
Advanced Member
 
elee532's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 12
I'm trying to decide between the Denon x4000, x4520CI, and x4100W.

  1. Do all three handle playing multi-channel FLAC files from the network?
  2. Does the Denon phone/tablet app work the same for all three models?
  3. The 4100 says it's Windows 8 compatible. The 4520 says Windows 7. Does the mean the 4520 can't play from my Windows 8 HTPC?
  4. What is DSD audio streaming?
Thanks in advance!
elee532 is offline  
post #11089 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 07:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
lovinthehd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: OROR
Posts: 8,866
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1198 Post(s)
Liked: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by oink View Post
No DSP used.
Every output is set in Denon's "Pure Audio" mode.



Yup, that's the one.


Thank you for the kind word.


Please allow me to explain how I did the comparison:
1) Because the 4520 does not have balanced XLR outputs, I used RCAs between the 2.
2) Although my HT room is small, I do have a 7.1 setup, with front speakers 12 ft. away from the listening area.
3) I did not use the Denon's Audyssey room correction software (not opposed to it, someday I'll probably give it try).
4) I used my trusty ol' Radio Shack analog sound meter.
5) I used a BD I am very familiar with (Fellowship of the Ring).
6) I spent an hour switching back and forth between the 2 sets of amps.
7) Afterwards, I asked Ms. Oink to set and listen and tell me which sounded best to her (she is a trained classical musician with perfect pitch).
8) She re-affirmed my impressions.


Guys, I'm not trying to pick a fight....seriously.
There is no need for any panty-bunching.
Just to be clear, I have purchased more Denon equipment in the last 20 years than any other.


I have been a high-fidelity lover for more the 40 years.
I know what my ears tell me.
Not trying to pick a fight but your previous posts were seriously lacking and while this one offers more it's still leaving me ??? Like first why the heck did you get a 4520 if you're not going to use the dsp nor amps? That's one expensive switch.

What spl levels did you do your tests at? How did you setup without Audyssey? You have the M&K S150 all around for 5 or 7 ch? what for subs? Details man, details! Now that I've seen more info on the MPS1 than I originally found I'd say my amps are more equivalent than more powerful.

You and your wife's ears may be fine or even marvelous, but we're not you let alone know your setup, more details of your comparo, and details about your room, tastes, etc. I've used amps a lot, I just don't find them magically drastically different if they're functioning as intended.
lovinthehd is online now  
post #11090 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 08:40 PM
Senior Member
 
jappleboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 239
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 60 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thumbs down What

What the hell.
jappleboy is offline  
post #11091 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 09:50 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
aaronwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Northern VA(Woodbridge)
Posts: 22,751
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1375 Post(s)
Liked: 929
I checked out Super 8 from my Popcorn Hour Media Player. And it did turn the compression on in my 4520. But once I turned that off and tried playing it again it didn't turn back on. But I guess I need to try it again after I have turned my 4520 back on again after being off.

53TB unRAID2--38TB unRAID3--33TB unRAID1a
LED DLP
XBL/PSN: WormholeXtreme
aaronwt is offline  
post #11092 of 12089 Old 01-25-2015, 10:30 PM
Senior Member
 
jrhooper1963's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 309
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Really tempted to take one of these bad boys for a test run. Hoping to sell my Parasound Halo A52, to offset the cost. Just wondering if I would be underwhelmed? Also have AV 7005 Marantz ,along with Ascend Acoustic Sierra Ones in my system. Velodyne SPL1200R still performing good for 6 years now. Nice subwoofer it has been for me. Also, the AV 7005 has been a stellar performer. I love my Sierra Ones as well.
jrhooper1963 is offline  
post #11093 of 12089 Old 01-26-2015, 05:02 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turnne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 4,547
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1001 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Highly likely unless bias elimination methods were followed. But he said he had done an A/B comparison test, so it's worth pursuing how he did the test I think, just so we can be sure of its validity.
and a couple more questions you did nt ask


what speakers ( and how many) was he driving?


how big was the room?


I could easily see the 4520 not being able to drive the type of possible load that a separate Emotiva amp can




Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC37 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Pioneer SC77 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
turnne1 is offline  
post #11094 of 12089 Old 01-26-2015, 05:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turnne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 4,547
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1001 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
I'm trying to decide between the Denon x4000, x4520CI, and x4100W.

  1. Do all three handle playing multi-channel FLAC files from the network?
  2. Does the Denon phone/tablet app work the same for all three models?
  3. The 4100 says it's Windows 8 compatible. The 4520 says Windows 7. Does the mean the 4520 can't play from my Windows 8 HTPC?
  4. What is DSD audio streaming?
Thanks in advance!

how important is price to you?


you should be able to get the X4000 for about $600( or less)...the 4520 for $900( or less)


I don't know what the market price for the X4100 is...I see magnolia trying to sell them at MSRP...




Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC37 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Pioneer SC77 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
turnne1 is offline  
post #11095 of 12089 Old 01-26-2015, 06:23 AM
Advanced Member
 
elee532's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
how important is price to you?

you should be able to get the X4000 for about $600( or less)...the 4520 for $900( or less)
Price is important, but definitely not the only factor. My usage will involve about 75% music (mostly hi-rez 2 channel and 5.1 channel FLAC streaming from a Windows PC and a NAS) and about 25% movies and concert blu-rays. Assuming all three options are equivalent in the features I listed above and other features related to my usage scenario, I'm leaning towards the 4520.


Any thoughts? Thanks!
elee532 is offline  
post #11096 of 12089 Old 01-26-2015, 06:24 AM
Advanced Member
 
laserjock II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Texas Coast
Posts: 806
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 211 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Price is important, but definitely not the only factor. My usage will involve about 75% music (mostly hi-rez 2 channel and 5.1 channel FLAC streaming from a Windows PC and a NAS) and about 25% movies and concert blu-rays. Assuming all three options are equivalent in the features I listed above and other features related to my usage scenario, I'm leaning towards the 4520.


Any thoughts? Thanks!
Get the 4520 and don't look back.
laserjock II is offline  
post #11097 of 12089 Old 01-26-2015, 06:51 AM
AVS Special Member
 
turnne1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 4,547
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1001 Post(s)
Liked: 227
Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Price is important, but definitely not the only factor. My usage will involve about 75% music (mostly hi-rez 2 channel and 5.1 channel FLAC streaming from a Windows PC and a NAS) and about 25% movies and concert blu-rays. Assuming all three options are equivalent in the features I listed above and other features related to my usage scenario, I'm leaning towards the 4520.


Any thoughts? Thanks!

I don't have a desire for Atmos...so the 4520 would be my pick from that group


aside from some freakish HDMI handshake issues some of us have had...including me...the unit seems solid and sound good as well


The X4000 in my "feel" of the unit is a definite step down
While there may be no sonic difference in the two..I thought it worth the extra $200 for the 4520


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC37 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Pioneer SC77 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
turnne1 is offline  
post #11098 of 12089 Old 01-26-2015, 09:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing, cycling or kayaking ) - Sacramento CA area
Posts: 6,460
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 763 Post(s)
Liked: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
and a couple more questions you did nt ask


what speakers ( and how many) was he driving?


how big was the room?


I could easily see the 4520 not being able to drive the type of possible load that a separate Emotiva amp can


Warren

Yes, my 4520 sounds much better since I added an Emotiva XPA - 200 2 channel amp. But only because that let me add 2 more speakers, for a full 11.2 surround system !


Checked out the new DTS:X audio disk given away at CES this weekend. DTS:X sounded excellent on my 4520 with 11.2 channel ( set to DTS NEO:X ).

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Call me on my direct line - 585-671-2972, 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday
Email me at craig@avscience.com http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SIM2, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, and many more!
Craig Peer is offline  
post #11099 of 12089 Old 01-26-2015, 03:50 PM
Advanced Member
 
elee532's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 586
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 28 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Yes, my 4520 sounds much better since I added an Emotiva XPA - 200 2 channel amp. But only because that let me add 2 more speakers, for a full 11.2 surround system !

Craig, so funny you should say that! One of the reasons I was leaning towards the 4520 is the better amp section. I was actually hoping I might eliminate my Emotive XPA-5. I've got two great powered subs, a fairly small room (10" x 16"), and don't get much opportunity to listen to my music at max volume theses day. I was hoping the sale of the XPA-5 might help partially finance my purchase of the new AVR.


Any thoughts? Will imbed disappointed using the 4520 without an external amp in a 5.2 setup that's used for mostly pop/rock music at moderate volume in a small room?


Thanks!
elee532 is offline  
post #11100 of 12089 Old 01-26-2015, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Addicted Member
 
batpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 25,647
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1633 Post(s)
Liked: 1890
It takes almost no power at all to reach moderate volumes. Consider a typical 90dB sensitive speaker -- that means it puts out 90dB with ONE WATT of power at one meter distance. Even when you substract some power for distance it's still really, really loud with one watt.

Because of the exponential nature of power demands (a 10dB increase in SPL requires 10x the power) it takes very little power to reach pretty loud SPL... until, all of a sudden, you need a lot of power. It's those last 10dB that really gets you.
kbarnes701 likes this.

batpig's "Denon-to-English Dictionary"
Setup Guide and FAQ
http://batpigworld.com/

Become a fan "batpigworld.com" on Facebook!
batpig is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver
Gear in this thread - 4520ci by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off