The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 371 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11101 of 11129 Old 01-26-2015, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
Yes, my 4520 sounds much better since I added an Emotiva XPA - 200 2 channel amp. But only because that let me add 2 more speakers, for a full 11.2 surround system !

Craig, so funny you should say that! One of the reasons I was leaning towards the 4520 is the better amp section. I was actually hoping I might eliminate my Emotive XPA-5. I've got two great powered subs, a fairly small room (10" x 16"), and don't get much opportunity to listen to my music at max volume theses day. I was hoping the sale of the XPA-5 might help partially finance my purchase of the new AVR.


Any thoughts? Will imbed disappointed using the 4520 without an external amp in a 5.2 setup that's used for mostly pop/rock music at moderate volume in a small room?


Thanks!
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post #11102 of 11129 Old 01-26-2015, 04:58 PM - Thread Starter
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It takes almost no power at all to reach moderate volumes. Consider a typical 90dB sensitive speaker -- that means it puts out 90dB with ONE WATT of power at one meter distance. Even when you substract some power for distance it's still really, really loud with one watt.

Because of the exponential nature of power demands (a 10dB increase in SPL requires 10x the power) it takes very little power to reach pretty loud SPL... until, all of a sudden, you need a lot of power. It's those last 10dB that really gets you.
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post #11103 of 11129 Old 01-26-2015, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Craig, so funny you should say that! One of the reasons I was leaning towards the 4520 is the better amp section. I was actually hoping I might eliminate my Emotive XPA-5. I've got two great powered subs, a fairly small room (10" x 16"), and don't get much opportunity to listen to my music at max volume theses day. I was hoping the sale of the XPA-5 might help partially finance my purchase of the new AVR.


Any thoughts? Will imbed disappointed using the 4520 without an external amp in a 5.2 setup that's used for mostly pop/rock music at moderate volume in a small room?


Thanks!
I thought my 4520 with new Martin Logan Motion series speakers in a 23' x 17'6" room sounded excellent - with a good sub ( I have an SVS cylinder sub ) Blu Rays sound outstanding. The only reason I got the amp was to run 11 channels. It can play ridiculously loud, and clean. I can get even my " I like my movies loud " friends to cry Uncle. No hiss or other sound with a volume of 75 and no signal either. So if 9 channels is good enough, you should be happy.

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post #11104 of 11129 Old 01-26-2015, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Craig, so funny you should say that! One of the reasons I was leaning towards the 4520 is the better amp section. I was actually hoping I might eliminate my Emotive XPA-5. I've got two great powered subs, a fairly small room (10" x 16"), and don't get much opportunity to listen to my music at max volume theses day. I was hoping the sale of the XPA-5 might help partially finance my purchase of the new AVR.


Any thoughts? Will imbed disappointed using the 4520 without an external amp in a 5.2 setup that's used for mostly pop/rock music at moderate volume in a small room?


Thanks!
I am happy with my 4520 Amps in a bit larger room (26 x 22) but rarely listen higher than -7.5 db, more typically -20 to -10db. I have NOT, however, compared with an external amp. What is the sensitivity on your speakers? My Triads Silver LCR are 89 on the sensitivity scale.
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post #11105 of 11129 Old 01-26-2015, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I thought my 4520 with new Martin Logan Motion series speakers in a 23' x 17'6" room sounded excellent - with a good sub ( I have an SVS cylinder sub ) Blu Rays sound outstanding. The only reason I got the amp was to run 11 channels. It can play ridiculously loud, and clean. I can get even my " I like my movies loud " friends to cry Uncle. No hiss or other sound with a volume of 75 and no signal either. So if 9 channels is good enough, you should be happy.
Thanks for the reply!

Last edited by elee532; 01-26-2015 at 06:13 PM.
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post #11106 of 11129 Old 01-26-2015, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Craig, so funny you should say that! One of the reasons I was leaning towards the 4520 is the better amp section. I was actually hoping I might eliminate my Emotive XPA-5. I've got two great powered subs, a fairly small room (10" x 16"), and don't get much opportunity to listen to my music at max volume theses day. I was hoping the sale of the XPA-5 might help partially finance my purchase of the new AVR.


Any thoughts? Will imbed disappointed using the 4520 without an external amp in a 5.2 setup that's used for mostly pop/rock music at moderate volume in a small room?


Thanks!

The Denon 4520ci in your described room should blow you away!


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post #11107 of 11129 Old 01-26-2015, 09:29 PM
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I am happy with my 4520 Amps in a bit larger room (26 x 22) but rarely listen higher than -7.5 db, more typically -20 to -10db. I have NOT, however, compared with an external amp. What is the sensitivity on your speakers? My Triads Silver LCR are 89 on the sensitivity scale.
Salk Song Tower, listed as 88db, 4 ohms nominal, 6 ohms average.
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post #11108 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 12:12 AM
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I apologies to oink for my joking comment about his sound opinion,I didn't intend to help fuel such scrutiny
got mine today and did a hookup to the 4 towers without the sub included,a nice change in sound type as compared to my Kenwood,output is ,tighter,punchier bass,fuller mid range and highs more pronounced and better channel separation
stronger amp output and as much likely to the better dac's of the 4520 as compared to the sound signature of the Xonar D2X card
I noticed the flashing remote syndrome already with no sub in the mix
I setup a Onkyo 3008 in the past and see through menu's Denon has is an improvement
gotta get the center speaker from them(eta middle march) but today the sub gets introduced with no room correction yet for a while

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post #11109 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Craig, so funny you should say that! One of the reasons I was leaning towards the 4520 is the better amp section. I was actually hoping I might eliminate my Emotive XPA-5. I've got two great powered subs, a fairly small room (10" x 16"), and don't get much opportunity to listen to my music at max volume theses day. I was hoping the sale of the XPA-5 might help partially finance my purchase of the new AVR.


Any thoughts? Will imbed disappointed using the 4520 without an external amp in a 5.2 setup that's used for mostly pop/rock music at moderate volume in a small room?


Thanks!
The 4520s have 9 relatively slightly more powerful but not better amps. All of them 9 identical amps are of the most basic amplifier design.
I would not buy a 4520 because of its 9 amps.
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post #11110 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 05:30 AM
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You buy it for the preamp first, with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, then for being a receiver (with internal amplification).

But if you want real juice for some serious speakers requiring lots of current and bass power with real verve; then you use serious external amplification for those serious speakers.

The 4520 @ about $1,000 right now is a serious surround sound processor with serious bass management inside. ...And a very serious good deal.
/// The nine amps are free.
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post #11111 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Salk Song Tower, listed as 88db, 4 ohms nominal, 6 ohms average.
IMHO Unless you tend to listen at reference you will be quite happy with the 4520.

Edit: I should qualify the "Unless you tend to listen at reference" part! You might be quite happy also listening at reference but I can't really comment because I have only pushed mine to reference a few times, and only for short periods. I might do that more if I can ever get WAF for some room treatments

The few times I did, it was fine though considering the room.

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post #11112 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 07:43 AM
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reference? If I even came close to reference level I would be half deaf. Even playing a BD at -25 has everything rattling from all the bass in my setup from my svs.. And everything coming from the speakers connected to the 4520 amps is extremely loud. I'm usually around -30 when playing a BD. Up to -19 when watching broadcast because of the high dial norm(-4db to -10db) that is always applied with broadcast DD.

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post #11113 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 10:25 AM
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firmware updates are like torture,I think I'd rather take a beating,like I've been molested and ingested
it completed finally

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post #11114 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by aaronwt View Post
reference? If I even came close to reference level I would be half deaf. Even playing a BD at -25 has everything rattling from all the bass in my setup from my svs.. And everything coming from the speakers connected to the 4520 amps is extremely loud. I'm usually around -30 when playing a BD. Up to -19 when watching broadcast because of the high dial norm(-4db to -10db) that is always applied with broadcast DD.
I watch BD at -10 and only full reference just for quick testing.
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
You buy it for the preamp first, with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, then for being a receiver (with internal amplification).

But if you want real juice for some serious speakers requiring lots of current and bass power with real verve; then you use serious external amplification for those serious speakers.

The 4520 @ about $1,000 right now is a serious surround sound processor with serious bass management inside. ...And a very serious good deal.
/// The nine amps are free.
Agreed. If you want serious power, get a nice 3 channel amp for the front three speakers and have some fun !

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post #11116 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 11:49 AM
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I watch BD at -10 and only full reference just for quick testing.
Generally I'm -5 ( unless the wife complains ). But so much depends on your room. I have 3 acoustic panels, a 14' long sectional sofa, carpeting, heavy velvet drapes. and an odd shaped room ! Your room plays a big part in how things sound - as do your speakers.

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post #11117 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
You buy it for the preamp first, with Audyssey MultEQ XT32, then for being a receiver (with internal amplification).

But if you want real juice for some serious speakers requiring lots of current and bass power with real verve; then you use serious external amplification for those serious speakers.

The 4520 @ about $1,000 right now is a serious surround sound processor with serious bass management inside. ...And a very serious good deal.
/// The nine amps are free.
yep, couldn't have said it better myself. where else can you find all the processing power and bells and whistles even if you don't include the amp section!
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post #11118 of 11129 Old Yesterday, 03:04 PM
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yep, couldn't have said it better myself. where else can you find all the processing power and bells and whistles even if you don't include the amp section!
In another receiver, but a little more expensive (more than twice, street), like the Denon AVR-X7200W for example.
...Or in a separate pre/pro, like the Marantz AV7702 for example, and for roughly $600 (street) more. ...Without 32-bit DACs.

Make no mistake, the 4520 @ its discount price right now is a whole heck lot of a pre/pro.
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Thanks everyone! I ordered the 4520 from an Amazon seller for $888 today. I'll hold onto my XPA-5 for a bit to see if it makes a noticeable difference for me vs. the Denon's amp. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by oink View Post
T

I am not getting into argument over exactly what someone may or may not hear.


If you want to speculate the amps in the 4520 sound as good as the MPS-1 amps, you are welcome to it.
Fair enough. It isn’t speculation though.

Why would you want amps that have a 'sound' of their own anyway? An amp should take the input signal and pass it to the output entirely unchanged other than in amplitude. Pretty much all half-decent amps these days can do this, those in the 4520 being no exception. If your amp is contributing its own 'sound' then it is acting as a tone control. Is that what you really want - someone else deciding to introduce a tone control of their own choosing into your system?
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Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Thanks everyone! I ordered the 4520 from an Amazon seller for $888 today. I'll hold onto my XPA-5 for a bit to see if it makes a noticeable difference for me vs. the Denon's amp. Thanks!
I'll be interested to hear your comparison thoughts. Make sure to use a dB meter.
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Thanks everyone! I ordered the 4520 from an Amazon seller for $888 today. I'll hold onto my XPA-5 for a bit to see if it makes a noticeable difference for me vs. the Denon's amp. Thanks!
In case it's important to you, did you confirm that the seller is an authorized dealer so that you'll have a warranty on it? With Amazon, unless Amazon is actually the seller, most other sellers aren't authorized Denon dealers.
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In case it's important to you, did you confirm that the seller is an authorized dealer so that you'll have a warranty on it? With Amazon, unless Amazon is actually the seller, most other sellers aren't authorized Denon dealers.
I'm pretty sure he got it from A4L on Amazon, which is an authorized reseller. If he had purchased directly from A4L he could have gotten free shipping to boot.
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Fair enough. It isn’t speculation though.

Why would you want amps that have a 'sound' of their own anyway? An amp should take the input signal and pass it to the output entirely unchanged other than in amplitude. Pretty much all half-decent amps these days can do this, those in the 4520 being no exception. If your amp is contributing its own 'sound' then it is acting as a tone control. Is that what you really want - someone else deciding to introduce a tone control of their own choosing into your system?
Basic science could save a lot of people a lot of money....
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post #11125 of 11129 Unread Today, 10:03 AM
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Basic science could save a lot of people a lot of money....
Indeed. The basic science is a stretch too far for many though - and as ever, there are plenty of charlatans who will leap in and part people from their cash by convincing them that AV is more about 'magic' than it is about science. The entire 'exotic' cable industry is the most obvious example. People who sell useless interconnects for hundreds of dollars, claiming 'magic' properties for them should be tried for fraud IMO. Sadly, the same sort of suspension of intellect has crept into the world of amplifiers too, with ludicrous claims being made which have no basis in fact and which are denied by simple measurements.

Ordinarily, I'd say "so what? If people want to spend $10,000 where $1,000 would serve as well, let them get on with it". And if people really do understand the issues and still decide to spend $$$ on a "high end" amp, then all power to them (no pun intended). But so often you see people just wasting their money and that is a shame. All those dollars could have been spent on stuff that will really make a difference to sound quality: speakers, subs, acoustic treatments for example.

It is amusing though to see people exclaim dramatically about the 'night and day' differences that the vanishingly small differences between modern electronics make, while happily ignoring 20-30dB swings in frequency response in their speakers and subs just because of room issues that have not been effectively dealt with.

Such people are a marketing man's wet dream.
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post #11127 of 11129 Unread Today, 04:22 PM
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The volume reference level is all relative to the speaker efficiency you have. Some people are stating they listen at -5 and some at -20. The person at -20 might actually be at a louder dB in room then the -5 person. It all depends on what you are driving.

I listen between -18dB and -30 on the receiver with out it being adjust by Audyssey or anything else yet. My speakers are 98 dB / Watt though. If you have 83 dB / watt speakers you are needing to drive them at -5 on your receiver at a minimum to keep up and likely have to push harder than that.

Just keep those things in mind when you mention what level you set your receiver. It makes all the difference.

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post #11128 of 11129 Unread Today, 04:41 PM
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The volume reference level is all relative to the speaker efficiency you have.
This is incorrect if both systems are calibrated correctly....which yours is not.

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post #11129 of 11129 Unread Today, 11:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Jeff in Canada View Post
The volume reference level is all relative to the speaker efficiency you have. Some people are stating they listen at -5 and some at -20. The person at -20 might actually be at a louder dB in room then the -5 person.
Not on a calibrated system. That's sort of the point of calibration.

Rather, the differences are likely due to perceptual psychoacoustic phenomena that vary by room size, room acoustics, speaker quality, and personal preference. Distortion sounds louder. Small rooms sound louder. A "live" room sounds louder. If you have a very well damped room, and/or extremely low distortion (amp and/or speakers), you can play louder without it "sounding" louder.

Plus, there are variables related to source content and receiver settings. We just had a discussion of how DRC can be unknowingly engaged when watching Blu-rays, and compression of dynamic range will make the soundtrack sound "louder" because the soft parts are raised. If you use Audyssey Dynamic Volume it will have a dramatic impact on volume levels -- I can listen at night comfortably at -50dB with DV set to Medium, whereas if it was daytime and nobody was home I could happily watch a movie at -20dB with DV off. That's a big variance.

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Denon Avr 4520ci Receiver
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