The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 372 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11131 of 11158 Old 01-29-2015, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by tap View Post
As far as I can tell, the 4520CI can't play multi-channel files from the network. FLAC, AAC, DD, whatever, it won't do it. Stereo only.

Yikes, are you serious? This is not cool, as I already ordered the 4520. Ugh!
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post #11132 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by tap View Post
As far as I can tell, the 4520CI can't play multi-channel files from the network. FLAC, AAC, DD, whatever, it won't do it. Stereo only.

DSD is the format from super audio CDs.
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Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Yikes, are you serious? This is not cool, as I already ordered the 4520. Ugh!
Where do you guys get multichannel FLAC, AAC (what's DD...usually stands for dolby digital?) files?

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #11133 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Where do you guys get multichannel FLAC, AAC (what's DD...usually stands for dolby digital?) files?
I ripped all of my DVD-Audio disks, and more recently I have been ripping the High Fidelity Pure Audio Blu-Ray disks (some are multi-channel, but some are just stereo). I have also ripped Blu-Ray disks with concerts because if they are dts-HD Master Audio then they are also lossless. And finally, I have ripped good old DVD's, some with multi-channel Dolby Digital and some with dts. Sure, they're lossy, but they can still sound great.


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post #11134 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Yikes, are you serious? This is not cool, as I already ordered the 4520. Ugh!
It's a limitation in the network player that it would only do stereo (a bit weird I know)
I honestly don't know many network streamers that would do surround flac files or surround audio unless its baked in with video, this was in fact one of the reasons I got the oppo 103D that plays anything I throw at it.

Before I got the oppo I would have to use a computer hooked into the avr with HDMI (had that for xbmc anyways) but now I only use that for gaming.
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post #11135 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 12:16 PM
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See this thread for a relatively inexpensive solution:

Kodi (XBMC) via Chromebox

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC64ii, SUR: Polk LS F/X x 4, SUB: PSA T-18 x 2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #11136 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Sargent View Post
I ripped all of my DVD-Audio disks, and more recently I have been ripping the High Fidelity Pure Audio Blu-Ray disks (some are multi-channel, but some are just stereo). I have also ripped Blu-Ray disks with concerts because if they are dts-HD Master Audio then they are also lossless. And finally, I have ripped good old DVD's, some with multi-channel Dolby Digital and some with dts. Sure, they're lossy, but they can still sound great.


Mike
Thanks, that I might like to learn how to do one of these days.... although currently I don't have a NAS or any significant storage device, and as the disk is handy to pop in the player not sure that I'll be looking into that for a while.

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #11137 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
It's a limitation in the network player that it would only do stereo (a bit weird I know)



Demon should make this clear! The specs say lossless FLAC is supported. If that support is limited to stereo FLAC, why would they not state that? Streaming FLAC 5.1 was one of my primary reasons for getting a new AVR... XT32 and dual sub support were the other 2.


I appreciate the Kodi suggestion. Ironically though, getting rid of my existing HTPC which is running Kodi was another of the reasons I was getting this new AVR. Too many devices. Too many freeze UPS, error messages, update messages, etc.
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post #11138 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
I honestly don't know many network streamers that would do surround flac files or surround audio

Any idea what the limitation is?
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post #11139 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 05:42 PM
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Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Any idea what the limitation is?
Number of people who even know what it is?

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #11140 of 11158 Old 01-30-2015, 08:27 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Number of people who even know what it is?

I can play FLAC 5.1 files with Windows Media Player. It's not THAT obscure. :-)
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
It takes almost no power at all to reach moderate volumes. Consider a typical 90dB sensitive speaker -- that means it puts out 90dB with ONE WATT of power at one meter distance. Even when you substract some power for distance it's still really, really loud with one watt.

Because of the exponential nature of power demands (a 10dB increase in SPL requires 10x the power) it takes very little power to reach pretty loud SPL... until, all of a sudden, you need a lot of power. It's those last 10dB that really gets you.
bat pig, You are one of my A/V heros! Always stating facts. As I personally found out on 3 different Denon receivers (AVR-4802, AVR-4810 and my current AVR-4520), sometimes the internal amplifier is not powerful enough. When trying to get those "last 10dB" and the Denon's internal amps start clipping, you Hear that to make it any louder (and remain listenable), you need external help! Thank You for your invaluable advice over the years. You have highly influenced several purchases and have not steered me wrong yet.
Thanks Again.
Blessings, Brian
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post #11142 of 11158 Old Yesterday, 06:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
Any idea what the limitation is?
I have no real knowledge but if I was to guess, I'd say it was a combination with DSP paths and software, something like the network audio software player is only connected to the avr with two channels.

Anyways I'm just theorising wildly at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glock3540 View Post
bat pig, You are one of my A/V heros! Always stating facts. As I personally found out on 3 different Denon receivers (AVR-4802, AVR-4810 and my current AVR-4520), sometimes the internal amplifier is not powerful enough. When trying to get those "last 10dB" and the Denon's internal amps start clipping, you Hear that to make it any louder (and remain listenable), you need external help! Thank You for your invaluable advice over the years. You have highly influenced several purchases and have not steered me wrong yet.
Thanks Again.
Blessings, Brian
Speaker sensitivity is measured with 1khz tone outputs, as the frequency of the sound that is reproduced changes so would the needed power output change. I wonder how loud a 40hz tone would be with one watt of power ?
And that fact alone pretty much invalidates the entire rating for all practical purposes.
Batpig certainly isn't wrong, but he isn't correct either, and this is pretty much why discussions such as these never really go anywhere good.

I bought an emotiva xpa5 while I had my former pioneer elite, cause with my new speakers it started sounding compressed during hectic scenes with lots of explosions at around mv -24.
I did the math then, and power REALLY shouldn't have been a problem (my entire 5 speaker system shouldn't need more than 150 watts at desired levels put together)
But testing out the xpa with that was night and day, I still have my xpa 5 with the denon cause it does sound better with it than without to my own subjective experience and testing, nowhere near the difference as with the pioneer which started sounding like it engaged DRC as things got interesting, but it does eliminate any need or desire for engaging dialog enhancer. A feature I found myself reaching for throughout my week of testing without the emo.

Would it spur me to buy an emo as the pioneer did. No.
Is the difference enough for me to keep the xpa5. Yes.

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post #11143 of 11158 Old Yesterday, 07:42 AM
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This site

http://www.2l.no/hires/

has a bunch of high res FLAC files. In stereo and 5.1. I remember trying some last year with my Sony S6200. But I guess my SOny S6200 decoded them to pcm before being sent to my 4520.

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post #11144 of 11158 Old Yesterday, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
I have no real knowledge but if I was to guess, I'd say it was a combination with DSP paths and software, something like the network audio software player is only connected to the avr with two channels.

Anyways I'm just theorising wildly at this point.



Speaker sensitivity is measured with 1khz tone outputs, as the frequency of the sound that is reproduced changes so would the needed power output change. I wonder how loud a 40hz tone would be with one watt of power ?
And that fact alone pretty much invalidates the entire rating for all practical purposes.
Batpig certainly isn't wrong, but he isn't correct either, and this is pretty much why discussions such as these never really go anywhere good.

I bought an emotiva xpa5 while I had my former pioneer elite, cause with my new speakers it started sounding compressed during hectic scenes with lots of explosions at around mv -24.
I did the math then, and power REALLY shouldn't have been a problem (my entire 5 speaker system shouldn't need more than 150 watts at desired levels put together)
But testing out the xpa with that was night and day, I still have my xpa 5 with the denon cause it does sound better with it than without to my own subjective experience and testing, nowhere near the difference as with the pioneer which started sounding like it engaged DRC as things got interesting, but it does eliminate any need or desire for engaging dialog enhancer. A feature I found myself reaching for throughout my week of testing without the emo.

Would it spur me to buy an emo as the pioneer did. No.
Is the difference enough for me to keep the xpa5. Yes.
Yes, its nicer to have more detailed specs rather than just a guideline. What speakers was your experience above with?

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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How do you set DSX Wide on this unit? On my 4310, there was a setting to direct it to do DSX Wide whenever it detected a 5.1 signal. I hooked up my wides to the correct terminals on this 4520, selected 9.1, ran Audyssey, but the DSX Wide is greyed out on 5.1 sources. What am I doing wrong?
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Okay, I selected 7.1 in amp assign, and then I was able to select DSX wide. All is good.
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Is there any user adjustment possible on the panel display? Specifically with Pandora the panel reads the song title on top line and then time and % (of internet signal apparently) on the bottom line instead of artist like my last avr did.... Bueller?

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #11148 of 11158 Old Today, 12:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
I have no real knowledge but if I was to guess, I'd say it was a combination with DSP paths and software, something like the network audio software player is only connected to the avr with two channels.

Anyways I'm just theorising wildly at this point.
I think it's just lazy programming. It seems pretty common. I have an Onkyo 626 that won't play multichannel files either. Nor will the media player in my Panasonic tv nor the LG Bluray player. Seem a HTPC setup is basically the only thing that will.

The LG Bluray will play 192kHz FLAC, but if I check the audio info on the 4520 it reports it's receiving 48 kHz PCM. I imagine everything is just downsampled to 48 kHz in the media player app. I can't check the TV's app, since the Denon info button is really lame and doesn't change the info on the front panel display like it does on the Onkyo receiver. And Denon's Andriod app is also kinda lame and doesn't give you audio info.

But it makes me wonder how well >48kHz >16bit >2 channel audio actually works. Even when something can play it, how often does the software just downsample to 48kHz/16bit/2ch audio? Hell, can the 4520's media player really play 192kHz files? Yes, it says it can and it makes sound, but did it just downsample them to 48k?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Yes, its nicer to have more detailed specs rather than just a guideline. What speakers was your experience above with?
(I should probably resize that but it's sunday and I do not intend to leave the couch, sue me.)


Not that well known a brand outside of scandinavia I guess, but running a 5.1 setup consisting of Dali mentor 6 fronts, their Mentor vokal center speakers, all three fronts use the same speaker modules so in total 6x 6.5" drivers with 3 dual dome\ribbon tweeters, rated at 6 ohm's and 89.5 db (90,5 db for the center) sensitivity. considering my room is also smaller than 30 square feet getting them to sound loud is not a problem.

And even though every salesman of this brand loves to say how easy they are to power, my experience says otherwise, I would rather have 100 watts headroom and not need it 99% of the time, but even at lower volumes I get benefits from the external amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tap View Post
I think it's just lazy programming. It seems pretty common. I have an Onkyo 626 that won't play multichannel files either. Nor will the media player in my Panasonic tv nor the LG Bluray player. Seem a HTPC setup is basically the only thing that will.

The LG Bluray will play 192kHz FLAC, but if I check the audio info on the 4520 it reports it's receiving 48 kHz PCM. I imagine everything is just downsampled to 48 kHz in the media player app. I can't check the TV's app, since the Denon info button is really lame and doesn't change the info on the front panel display like it does on the Onkyo receiver. And Denon's Andriod app is also kinda lame and doesn't give you audio info.

But it makes me wonder how well >48kHz >16bit >2 channel audio actually works. Even when something can play it, how often does the software just downsample to 48kHz/16bit/2ch audio? Hell, can the 4520's media player really play 192kHz files? Yes, it
says it can and it makes sound, but did it just downsample them to 48k?
Many good questions, I know for instance the X5200 downsamples to 48khz resolution when audyssey is engaged so certainly not outside the realm of possibillity that the 4520 does this as well.

But as far I can test it and I can tell (two topics highly worthy of debate), it doesn't. The audio info setting reports 192khz when I output it from my pc, and when streaming from the oppo it reports the files native resolution, most of my music happen to be 44,1 aparantly, my mingus is 88khz something I also downloaded a 192khz track from the site linked earlier and playing that over network through my oppo reports 192khz in the denon's audio-info submenu.

The oppo of course also handles surround flac, just to test I tried the denon media player with the same surround flac's but it only outputs stereo (as I would expect) the audio info page when using the media player no longer reports bitrate, it just says "Flac" as if that's what we want to know...

It could also be just lazy programming, but then again, the network features on these avr's are pretty much only for music, and we all must agree that surround\multi channel music never went big, or is common place.
So adding support for it would be costly since there probably is no "off the shelf", when they can also in my opinion rather safely assume that their customers who do care\want multi channel audio have and or prefer using different units for playing that music that already have all these capabilities I can see why they do it. I would still keep and use my Oppo 103d rather than use the network features in the denon, it is simply better, and it can go get the files themselves instead of relying on buggy DLNA servers.

The oppo of course also handles surround flac, just to test I tried the denon media player with the same surround flac's but it only outputs stereo (as I would expect)
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post #11150 of 11158 Old Today, 08:34 AM
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Last night I decided to look through all my settings and remembered about Loudness Management. It was on when playing True HD. So I set it to off along with my oppo 103d. I think this is the correct setting I read about a few pages back.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
I'll be interested to hear your comparison thoughts. Make sure to use a dB meter.
For what it's worth... I played the speaker test tone unadjusted using the internal amps of the 4520ci and got a reading of between 77dB and 79dB for the front three speakers. When doing so with the Emotiva XPA-5, it ranged from 80dB to 81dB.


If anyone has a suggestion for another approach that isn't too complicated, let me know. :-)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
For what it's worth... I played the speaker test tone unadjusted using the internal amps of the 4520ci and got a reading of between 77dB and 79dB for the front three speakers. When doing so with the Emotiva XPA-5, it ranged from 80dB to 81dB.


If anyone has a suggestion for another approach that isn't too complicated, let me know. :-)
The difference in output levels is expected when switching to the XPA-5. I don't know why you were interested in comparing the internal amps vs. the XPA-5, but differing output levels doesn't tell you anything meaningful.
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post #11153 of 11158 Old Today, 12:12 PM
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The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
For what it's worth... I played the speaker test tone unadjusted using the internal amps of the 4520ci and got a reading of between 77dB and 79dB for the front three speakers. When doing so with the Emotiva XPA-5, it ranged from 80dB to 81dB.


If anyone has a suggestion for another approach that isn't too complicated, let me know. :-)
Right. All that means is that the input sensitivity is likely higher on the Emotiva. Or the preoutput is higher on the 4520 than to its internal amp.

The volume number on the Denon is meaningless. The only thing that matters is what that dB meter says.

When you do a listening test to determine what sounds "better", the volume MUST be perfectly equal. The louder item in the comparison will always be perceived as "better." This is why volume matching is so very important.

Run the test tone again. Figure out what volume setting you have to have the 4520 on for each configuration (4520 alone or with Emotiva) to make the test tone equal, and use those settings for your "A/B" comparison.

I have a feeling once you do the volume matching you will detect no perceivable difference in sound quality. but I will be very interested to hear your honest opinion.

Try the test tone at a "normal" volume and a "loud" volume so you have a couple points to compare when listening to movies....and make sure they are at correct volumes when comparing!
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post #11154 of 11158 Old Today, 12:32 PM
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I don't know why you were interested in comparing the internal amps vs. the XPA-5

I'm trying to determine whether I would miss the XPA-5 if I got rid of it (I was previously using it with a Denon AVR990). I could use the $ from selling the XPA-5, and I'm also a little short on space. As I mentioned, it's a pretty small room (9.5' x 16.5'), I've got two powered Rythmik subs, my Salk Sound Towers are listed as 88dB sensitivity, and I'm playing mostly pop/rock music.


I'll try some meaningful testing as Dreamliner suggests above. :-)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
(I should probably resize that but it's sunday and I do not intend to leave the couch, sue me.)


Not that well known a brand outside of scandinavia I guess, but running a 5.1 setup consisting of Dali mentor 6 fronts, their Mentor vokal center speakers, all three fronts use the same speaker modules so in total 6x 6.5" drivers with 3 dual dome\ribbon tweeters, rated at 6 ohm's and 89.5 db (90,5 db for the center) sensitivity. considering my room is also smaller than 30 square feet getting them to sound loud is not a problem.

And even though every salesman of this brand loves to say how easy they are to power, my experience says otherwise, I would rather have 100 watts headroom and not need it 99% of the time, but even at lower volumes I get benefits from the external amp.
Dali speakers I know of. So this is more a case of what you anticipate in terms of overhead rather than an actual experience? Seems like you'd rarely need that 2dB overhead advantage with the XPA5 since you've got subs and only 5 speakers. Although at first I thought certainly you have more than 30 sq ft, but the way those speakers are crammed together....mebbe not

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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post #11156 of 11158 Old Today, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
...it (OPPO 103) can go get the files themselves instead of relying on buggy DLNA servers.
TorTorden, can you elaborate on this a little bit? I have some FLAC 5.1 files that are shared on a Windows PC and some that are shared on Western Digital My Book Live. Would the OPPO be able to play my 5.1 FLAC files from these two sources without relying on DLNA (correct me if I am wrong, but DLNA is the limitation in streaming 5.1 FLAC)? -Thanks!
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Dali speakers I know of. So this is more a case of what you anticipate in terms of overhead rather than an actual experience? Seems like you'd rarely need that 2dB overhead advantage with the XPA5 since you've got subs and only 5 speakers. Although at first I thought certainly you have more than 30 sq ft, but the way those speakers are crammed together....mebbe not
2.7m*3.8m so just over 10m sqaured, so 33.6 feet :P
Well I would be the first to admit it's not logical or rational to think I would need more power, but I neither hurt animals or molested children getting the power amp and I prefer the sound with it than without, so the rest of the world can take their opinions and suck it

And yes, headroom is nice, very nice, and went past the point of being rational in this hobby many many $ ago :P

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Originally Posted by elee532 View Post
TorTorden, can you elaborate on this a little bit? I have some FLAC 5.1 files that are shared on a Windows PC and some that are shared on Western Digital My Book Live. Would the OPPO be able to play my 5.1 FLAC files from these two sources without relying on DLNA (correct me if I am wrong, but DLNA is the limitation in streaming 5.1 FLAC)? -Thanks!
Yes the oppo can use regular windows (SMB) network shares or native *nix (NFS, used by linux or apple etc)
It might take a little more setting up but I would wind up doing that anyways since we are a house full of nerds and that's basically what I do.
If the My Book has a NAS feature it should work too, and considering it has DLNA support I would be very suprised if it doesn't.

I did just now test a little using xbmc and "ps3media server" as UPNP\DLNA servers and (once I got the files playing)
It did report 192khz playback in the denon's audio-info.

Might also mention I personally have no luck when it comes to DLNA, it just goes screwy on me for no good reason, and just trying to play 3-4 files today made to oppo freeze up just as many times, while using my regular windows shares it's been rock solid for months.

Oppo also still consider the networking features to be in beta or something so they won't offer any support on those features, but that's where the internet and this forums oppo threads can come in and every problem I have had network access wise with my oppo has been traced down to some issue in the network or my server config etc.

It's a pricy BD player, so honestly unless you REALLY need or want a few features I can't truly recommend it.
That said, I am feeling a little ripped off after buying a ps4, but I consider the oppo a steal at twice the price of the ps4 :s
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Originally Posted by TorTorden View Post
2.7m*3.8m so just over 10m sqaured, so 33.6 feet :P
Well I would be the first to admit it's not logical or rational to think I would need more power, but I neither hurt animals or molested children getting the power amp and I prefer the sound with it than without, so the rest of the world can take their opinions and suck it

And yes, headroom is nice, very nice, and went past the point of being rational in this hobby many many $ ago :P
Linear meter to foot is x3.28 but square meter to square feet is x10.76 so you have 110 sq ft. Just wondering how you came to the amp thing. No worries, I've used amps for years but only right now with the 4520 am only using its 7 internal ch amps and don't seem to be missing anything but haven't plugged my amps back in to see if there's anything to it. suum quique

"I realize that somebody playing free music isn't as commercial as a hamburger stand. But is it because you can eat a hamburger and hold it in your hand and you can't do that with music? Is it too free to control?" - Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart) discussing commercial success in the music biz


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