The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 385 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11521 of 12506 Old 03-02-2015, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I think you may have made a mistake in your post. Perhaps you meant to say, "I think its safe to say that HDMI on a Denon 4520 is notoriously quirky for me".

Or perhaps you meant to say, "I think its safe to say that HDMI in general is notoriously quirky".

If you have been following this thread since Day 1, you would see that the 4520 has no more HDMI issues than any other AVR make/model.

no I didn't make a mistake


of the 20 or so AVR's I have owned in the last 5-7 years...the 4520 is the only one that has given me the myriad of issues with wonky HDMI hand shake issues


Experiences that are mirrored with what others have described in this thread


While HDMI could be quirky...especially in the early days of implementation...99% of those issues are no longer there and can many times be simply solved by turning HDMI control "off"


That is not the case with the 4520..and again mirrors issues being described here by others.
Even in cases of older( and in some cases more expensive pieces than the 4520) units I had no such issues


I have been following this thread for more than a year...as I have of the other manufacturers of AVR's and pre/pros that I either owned or was interested in buying


I would disagree with you on the frequency of reported HDMI handshake issues in those threads vs this one


but again...just my experience and the reading of others


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post #11522 of 12506 Old 03-02-2015, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I for one was not impressed with Panurgy's service...but I wont go into that page long ordeal
as for the BB service plan
I have been lucky probably because they knew I was a regular customer at a particular store


if you read the fine print
They are not obligated to give you anything more..value wise...than what you had invested


However...as I said before I have been lucky
I once bought an Onkyo receiver for 65% off retail at Magnolia..it failed a couple of times(HDMI board)
On the third attempt they gave me full MSRP back in store credit towards another AVR....so $700 extra in my favor that I didn't spend in the first place


However...don't count on that as the black and white on the agreement specifies what their obligation is


Warren
Thanks Warren, I really did know what the black & white was but I was hoping for more stories like yours that they matched the MSRP. Thanks for the reply - I don't have my hopes up but hopefully they will get a replacement board.But I'm grateful for the Panurgy feedback also.
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post #11523 of 12506 Old 03-02-2015, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Just so I'm clear - you have your sub connected to Sub1 and the DefTech subs y-split out from Sub2, correct?

If so, this is the best way you could do it - treating both DefTech "subs"* as one. *Although an 8" driver can barely be called a subwoofer.

If I was you, I'd just hook up the mains as full range and forget about trying to use the DefTech "subs" as subs.
Alan, do you think there is any benefit of running the L/R pre-outs to the "LFE" of the Def Techs?
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post #11524 of 12506 Old 03-02-2015, 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post
Alan, do you think there is any benefit of running the L/R pre-outs to the "LFE" of the Def Techs?
What do you know about the ability of the inputs to accept other than a normal LFE signal range? Just playing devil's advocate since I don't consider the 8" woofers in those speakers as LFE worthy let alone as subs...
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post #11525 of 12506 Old 03-02-2015, 10:14 PM
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What do you know about the ability of the inputs to accept other than a normal LFE signal range? Just playing devil's advocate since I don't consider the 8" woofers in those speakers as LFE worthy let alone as subs...
I do notice a change in bass tone when the cable is connected and disconnected or running one connected and the other not, it is deeper. I don't know if the onboard crossovers will separate a full range signal going to the LFE input. I suppose, I could unplug the banana plugs and see what happens? Or is that Inadvisable?

Supposedly, they can go down to 19hz. The driver itself is the same that comes with the ProCinema 800 system. I know this because Def Tech sent me new subs to replace the originals, who's foam was degraded. The specs are here: http://www.definitivetech.com/products/bp2006tl

No, 8" woofers will not perform like a set of 15" woofers, I'm not expecting them to. Nor will the Polk PSW505. As for controls on the speakers themselves, there is just a fan control. Which wouldn't matter, the AVR controls the frequencies.

I'm trying to maximize what I have.
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post #11526 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 08:06 AM
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Hoping you 4ohm speaker and 4520 owners could chime in. I recently purchased a Marantz 7008, still within the return period. After the purchase I noticed the Marantz does not "officially" support 4ohm speakers which I currently have... Martin Logan 50xt, 40's and 2 pairs for motions 15's. After digging around and reading up on the 4520 (which is still available for about the same price as I paid for the 7008) I am wondering if that is a more optimal receiver for my setup. Thoughts?
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post #11527 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by andreray View Post
Hoping you 4ohm speaker and 4520 owners could chime in. I recently purchased a Marantz 7008, still within the return period. After the purchase I noticed the Marantz does not "officially" support 4ohm speakers which I currently have... Martin Logan 50xt, 40's and 2 pairs for motions 15's. After digging around and reading up on the 4520 (which is still available for about the same price as I paid for the 7008) I am wondering if that is a more optimal receiver for my setup. Thoughts?
While I have no reason to think you will have a problem with your Marantz ( get a cooling fan off Ebay - see back a few pages ), I have 11 Martin Logan Motion series speakers hooked up to my 4520, with a 2 channel Emotiva XPA 200 amp running the front L & R. No problems. With 9 speakers on the 4520 alone - no problems. My room is 23' x 17' 6" x 11' tall, and very dampened sound wise. Plays cleanly to ear damaging levels.
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post #11528 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post
Alan, do you think there is any benefit of running the L/R pre-outs to the "LFE" of the Def Techs?
You can do that *and* keep the speaker connectors active on the AVR? If so, I didn't know that.

I wouldn't try to do anything with those DefTech subs unless you have the ability to measure your response....do you?
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post #11529 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
You can do that *and* keep the speaker connectors active on the AVR? If so, I didn't know that.

I wouldn't try to do anything with those DefTech subs unless you have the ability to measure your response....do you?
I have tried running the Center (80hz) preout to the Def Tech CLR2003 LFE input, unplugged the speaker banana plugs, and the signal to the woofer was VERY faint. I had to turn the gain on the speaker all of the way up to hear anything. So, using the L/R preouts, in this application, is futile.

What's the difference between the LFE signal being sent and the full range signal that makes the full range so quiet? Is the LFE signal a higher voltage? The preout section sends a 2v signal to an external amp, right? I was hoping the internal amp of the Def Techs would treat that signal just like a [stereo] power amp would.
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post #11530 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post
I have tried running the Center (80hz) preout to the Def Tech CLR2003 LFE input, unplugged the speaker banana plugs, and the signal to the woofer was VERY faint. I had to turn the gain on the speaker all of the way up to hear anything. So, using the L/R preouts, in this application, is futile.

What's the difference between the LFE signal being sent and the full range signal that makes the full range so quiet? Is the LFE signal a higher voltage? The preout section sends a 2v signal to an external amp, right? I was hoping the internal amp of the Def Techs would treat that signal just like a [stereo] power amp would.
Depends on the signal you are feeding the center channel. The center channel will receive any low frequency signal that is present in both the left and right channels, assuming you are outputting in something like PLII Cinema mode. By virtue of the 80Hz crossover, the low frequencies are diverted to the sub channel. So the center pre-out really doesn't have any bass to speak of when you take the pre-out signal--it's all going to the sub.

Try switching the center to "Large" and re-run the test. Of course, you would normally not run the center as large, so I don't know what the test would prove.
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post #11531 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 05:44 PM
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Just curious.

Any body found an inexpensive way to add somewhat of an atmos system with the 4520.

Im not making the big jump atleast until 9.2.6... If that even happens. Ok, 7.2 6 then... Not to mention the other 2 formats. Dts:x. I think will be great to have too. So about 2 yrs away maybe. Ive heard atmos a b.b. But damn, I want it now. Just cant dish out that much, so quickly....

And I know anything that got added to the 4520 would'nt be, or could'nt that good. But theres got to be a way to cheat a bit. Maybe not.....
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post #11532 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by harrybnbad View Post
Just curious.

Any body found an inexpensive way to add somewhat of an atmos system with the 4520.

Im not making the big jump atleast until 9.2.6... If that even happens. Ok, 7.2 6 then... Not to mention the other 2 formats. Dts:x. I think will be great to have too. So about 2 yrs away maybe. Ive heard atmos a b.b. But damn, I want it now. Just cant dish out that much, so quickly....

And I know anything that got added to the 4520 would'nt be, or could'nt that good. But theres got to be a way to cheat a bit. Maybe not.....
Harry, Atmos requires decoding. The 4520 does not have the logic to decode Atmos, so it will never support it.
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post #11533 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Try switching the center to "Large" and re-run the test. Of course, you would normally not run the center as large, so I don't know what the test would prove.
I put the mains & center on "Large", watching a Dolby Digital broadcast (Top Gear), unplugged one of the banana plugs, there definitely was more sound going to the internal powered amp now, voices were very muffled and distant, then there was an explosion right in my ear with the gain at about 2 o'clock!!! I replayed the scene, there was a fair amount of excursion from the "sub". So this tells me that there is an internal crossover.

What do you think about not running Sub 2 to the mains, then setting the mains and center to "small" @ 40hz while running LRC preouts to them? Would I need to run Audyssey again after making these changes? I'm quite happy with the room correction. I'm guessing the SubEQ needs to be processed again.

Last edited by davethestalker; 03-03-2015 at 07:05 PM.
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post #11534 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by davethestalker View Post
I put the mains & center on "Large", watching a Dolby Digital broadcast (Top Gear), unplugged one of the banana plugs, there definitely was more sound going to the internal powered amp now, voices were very muffled and distant, then there was an explosion right in my ear with the gain at about 2 o'clock!!! I replayed the scene, there was a fair amount of excursion from the "sub". So this tells me that there is an internal crossover.

What do you think about not running Sub 2 to the mains, then setting the mains and center to "small" @ 40hz while running LRC preouts to them? Would I need to run Audyssey again after making these changes? I'm quite happy with the room correction. I'm guessing the SubEQ needs to be processed again.

I actually find that I prefer the settings that Audyssey makes....LCR as large and the surrounds as small
I am speaking to the 8801 I have in the main listening room
I am sure the same thing would apply to the 4520 should I move it in that room
But anyway
I hear more detail leaving the LCR speakers at large
I have B&W CM10's as my right left and they definitely benefitted....especially for 2 channel audio listening


Warren

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post #11535 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 07:34 PM
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I actually find that I prefer the settings that Audyssey makes....LCR as large and the surrounds as small
I am speaking to the 8801 I have in the main listening room
I am sure the same thing would apply to the 4520 should I move it in that room
But anyway
I hear more detail leaving the LCR speakers at large
I have B&W CM10's as my right left and they definitely benefitted....especially for 2 channel audio listening


Warren
FWIW while you may get those settings as a result from running Audyssey, if left up to Audyssey, it wouldn't set your mains to large when a sub is present in the system, that's a decision of the avr manufacturer; if it were up to Audyssey they'd always set your speakers to small....at least that's what the Audyssey dude said a while back https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...he-same-thing-
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post #11536 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
FWIW while you may get those settings as a result from running Audyssey, if left up to Audyssey, it wouldn't set your mains to large when a sub is present in the system, that's a decision of the avr manufacturer; if it were up to Audyssey they'd always set your speakers to small....at least that's what the Audyssey dude said a while back https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...he-same-thing-
Not really. Audyssey simply measures your speaker's "F3" value, the frequency at which output is down 3dB, and reports this value to the AVR at the end of the calibration. The AVR then sets the speaker to Large if the F3 value is low enough, or Small with a crossover if it isn't. Most experts recommend changing any speaker to Small regardless of its capabilities.
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post #11537 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 08:06 PM
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Hi, Sorry to pipe in, but I was hoping for some feedback (good please) and hopefully some help.
I have just upgraded my 2800 with a mint cond 4806 (limited on funds to purchase a X4000 or x4100W..or more like cannot slip by the lady). Anyhow, I am looking for the Ethernet Firmware Upgrade file for my 4806.
Can/would anyone help me in finding this file?
Soooooo much gratitude and thanks in advanced!!

Bill
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post #11538 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 08:10 PM
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post #11539 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 08:23 PM
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Austin, I did. No response for a few days. Could be cuz the model number, but also the threads are dated some.
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post #11540 of 12506 Old 03-03-2015, 09:01 PM
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Austin, I did. No response for a few days. Could be cuz the model number, but also the threads are dated some.
Did you try this site: http://firmware.denon.eu/index.php

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Yeah, been there....oddly it does not list the 4806....ugh.. The US site does, but here is the thing. On the US site I can/did download the Audyessey upgrade and the option to purchase the "CI" $500 upgrade, but no option to get/download the Ethernet Firmware upgrade....
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post #11542 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 04:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
FWIW while you may get those settings as a result from running Audyssey, if left up to Audyssey, it wouldn't set your mains to large when a sub is present in the system, that's a decision of the avr manufacturer; if it were up to Audyssey they'd always set your speakers to small....at least that's what the Audyssey dude said a while back https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...he-same-thing-
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Not really. Audyssey simply measures your speaker's "F3" value, the frequency at which output is down 3dB, and reports this value to the AVR at the end of the calibration. The AVR then sets the speaker to Large if the F3 value is low enough, or Small with a crossover if it isn't. Most experts recommend changing any speaker to Small regardless of its capabilities.

I am running two subs in the room in question
the only speakers Audyssey sets to small are the surrounds...which are B&W CM5's


I have run it both ways...changing the crossover to 80 and leaving the settings as they are after calibration
No question its better sounding leaving the settings as Audyssey sets them


Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC77 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #11543 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 05:25 AM
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Harry, Atmos requires decoding. The 4520 does not have the logic to decode Atmos, so it will never support it.
I realize that. Hence I said : And I know anything that got added to the 4520 would'nt be, or could'nt that good. But theres got to be a way to cheat a bit. Maybe not.....

Just seems there should be a way to come out hdmi from one of the 4520's outputs. Into something that decodes only the upper sounds. And yes, sure there would be duplicate sounds. yada, yada, yada. While I have no real idea how to make any type of processor. I'm lucky if I spell I right. But, I have some idea what they do. And don't do.


Seems I could come out monitor 2 hdmi. Into a denon 4100, and come up with something. Which I might consider playing around with anyways. I think the 4100 would be great for the bedroom when I do finally upgrade. I plan on using the 4520 for my backyard and pool area.
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post #11544 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harrybnbad View Post
Just curious.

Any body found an inexpensive way to add somewhat of an atmos system with the 4520.

Im not making the big jump atleast until 9.2.6... If that even happens. Ok, 7.2 6 then... Not to mention the other 2 formats. Dts:x. I think will be great to have too. So about 2 yrs away maybe. Ive heard atmos a b.b. But damn, I want it now. Just cant dish out that much, so quickly....

And I know anything that got added to the 4520 would'nt be, or could'nt that good. But theres got to be a way to cheat a bit. Maybe not.....
There are at least two ways I can think of in which you can accomplish your objective, but one is not yet available and the other is only a shallow approximation of the Atmos effect.

The first would be to purchase a Blu-ray player or other external that features the Atmos processor; but by the time such equipment hits the CE market at an affordable price you will probably have already bought your 15-channel-capable Atmos AVR.

The second would be to run a 9- or 11-channel speaker setup on your 4520, but place your surrounds above ear-level and your front heights and surround backs either on the ceiling or wall-mounted at ceiling level. Any Atmos-encoded source material will be processed by your 4520 as Dolby Digital 5.1 or 7.1, but if you engage DTS Neo:X, you will have sounds matrixed to all 11 speakers which will approximate the hemispherical envelopment effect that distinguishes Atmos, but without the salient feature of Atmos's object rendering to any three-dimensional point in space. I doubt that the result will be satisfying--and at least some of the bed-channel sounds you hear above you will seem out of place--but as a temporary "poor man's" measure it might give you a sense of what multidimensional audio feels like in your home.

Or you could just plunk down $900 now for a refurbished X4100 and stop thinking of how you could get your toaster to butter your bread for you!
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post #11545 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 05:29 AM
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Hey, it's a great toaster.
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post #11546 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 06:02 AM
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Well, there's a reason it's being sold off heavily discounted in case this is a surprise to you. I'm not one of those that chases every new bell and whistle, certainly not when so few movies have the Atmos codec. It still remains uncertain whether Atmos becomes the norm down the road, or becomes the betamax of its day. In the meantime, the 4520 is the best sounding avr I've ever owned, has height and wides channel options which I've not even experimented with yet, and cost me so little to boot.
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post #11547 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Well, there's a reason it's being sold off heavily discounted in case this is a surprise to you. I'm not one of those that chases every new bell and whistle, certainly not when so few movies have the Atmos codec. It still remains uncertain whether Atmos becomes the norm down the road, or becomes the betamax of its day. In the meantime, the 4520 is the best sounding avr I've ever owned, has height and wides channel options which I've not even experimented with yet, and cost me so little to boot.
Um, sure, that X4100 is discounted because it's a refurb. The 4520 is even more heavily discounted (new and refurb), but it's a stellar AVR notwithstanding, wouldn't you agree?

And just for the record, I've got an X5200 and I still use DTS Neo:X 11.1 as my default mode for music sources. So in this regard, I would be just as well served with the 4520.

But, the availability of Atmos-encoded movies aside, the Dolby Surround Upmixer (DSU) is a fantastic feature and well worth the price of admission IMO while we wait for more than a trickle of Atmos BRD's to hit the market. I have had my X5200 for over 5 months and have yet to listen to a single movie in Dolby Atmos; but I have listened to countless movies in Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD MA with DSU engaged and the results are phenomenal. YMMV of course, but while I deplore the absence of a single worthwhile Atmos BRD to this point, yet I am thrilled with my purchase and not at all sorry to be an early adopter. Two years from now I may well have moved on to the next big thing, but in the meantime I am enjoying my A/V system more than ever before.
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post #11548 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by chi_guy50 View Post
Or you could just plunk down $900 now for a refurbished X4100 and stop thinking of how you could get your toaster to butter your bread for you!
@harrybnbad - Buying that refurbished X4100 and selling your AVR-4520CI on eBay / AVS Classifieds, would probably make for a very inexpensive way to get Atmos now rather than trying to cobble something together that's going to be a poor approximation of it at best. If you really want to stick with your 4520, your best option is to consider adding height or width channels, but stick with the recommended speaker placements. I wouldn't recommend trying alternative speaker placements to try to make the 4520 pretend that it's doing Atmos when it isn't as the results aren't likely to be very good.

My room layout isn't Atmos friendly (the room has a vaulted ceiling so the Atmos modules that sit on top of existing speakers won't work and there's pretty much no chance that I'm going to get "permission" to mount speakers on the ceiling). I would, however, like to hear a good Atmos demonstration sometime to see (er, hear) what all the fuss is about.
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post #11549 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 10:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by harrybnbad View Post
I realize that. Hence I said : And I know anything that got added to the 4520 would'nt be, or could'nt that good. But theres got to be a way to cheat a bit. Maybe not.....

Just seems there should be a way to come out hdmi from one of the 4520's outputs. Into something that decodes only the upper sounds. And yes, sure there would be duplicate sounds. yada, yada, yada. While I have no real idea how to make any type of processor. I'm lucky if I spell I right. But, I have some idea what they do. And don't do.

Seems I could come out monitor 2 hdmi. Into a denon 4100, and come up with something. Which I might consider playing around with anyways. I think the 4100 would be great for the bedroom when I do finally upgrade. I plan on using the 4520 for my backyard and pool area.
There is absolutely no way, zip, zero that you could get anything resembling true, discrete Atmos decoding with an older AVR that doesn't support object audio.

However, if you really want to experiment with more overhead ambiance / envelopment, you MAY be able to get an approximation of DSU upmix. Chi_guy had an idea above about mounting both Front Height and Surround Back well overhead, but I would do it a bit different so as not to screw up the "bed" surround information (your base 7.1 layer).

What I would do instead is SPLIT the Front Height output into an overhead array (e.g. a pair of FH speaker mounted high up front and a second pair of overheads above, maybe a bit behind you). It will probably sound like garbage with DSX but with Neo:X upmixing, which is really just pulling decorrelated ambient info up above, it should be pretty unobtrusive and extend that elevated ambience overhead.

Then when you upgrade in the future to an object audio decoding processor, you have your overhead speakers already in place!

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post #11550 of 12506 Old 03-04-2015, 01:11 PM
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Not really. Audyssey simply measures your speaker's "F3" value, the frequency at which output is down 3dB, and reports this value to the AVR at the end of the calibration. The AVR then sets the speaker to Large if the F3 value is low enough, or Small with a crossover if it isn't. Most experts recommend changing any speaker to Small regardless of its capabilities.
Not to my understanding, strictly a decision the avr manufacturer made based on the info Audyssey gathered; Audyssey would still not set speakers to large if it had been left up to them. Not a big deal but not the intent of Audyssey "Small and Large is one of the greatest disservices the industry has brought to the consumer" https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries...w-mic-results-

But since it has been incorporated into the avr routine labeled "Audyssey" and the avr manufacturer not going with this Audyssey recommendation....
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