The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 400 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #11971 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post
I wish I shared your views. I tried for 2 years to get this thing to sound like anything but a tin box on loud multi channel stereo or any 2 channel music. What an anemic piece, It hurt your ears to listen to it, I now have a Marantz 8801 running through a Outlaw 7500. Its only 60 more watts ,and Marantz is a sister company...But there is absolutely no comparison of the fullness and room filling "thump"..... I hated this thing, sold it on E- Bay to some poor soul...You can pick up a terd and shine it up, but in the end....you still have a terd
On the other hand, it was nice in theater mode. If that's all your concerned with , I can see where people like it.

Im in the process of moving over to a preamp and amp. I have the 7500 here now, and will be getting an AV7702.

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post #11972 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post
I wish I shared your views. I tried for 2 years to get this thing to sound like anything but a tin box on loud multi channel stereo or any 2 channel music. What an anemic piece, It hurt your ears to listen to it, I now have a Marantz 8801 running through a Outlaw 7500. Its only 60 more watts ,and Marantz is a sister company...But there is absolutely no comparison of the fullness and room filling "thump"..... I hated this thing, sold it on E- Bay to some poor soul...You can pick up a terd and shine it up, but in the end....you still have a terd
On the other hand, it was nice in theater mode. If that's all your concerned with , I can see where people like it.
There are always going to be outlier results and those who simply do not like a piece. Then there are units that are faulty in some way, and the way you are describing it either you had some settings incorrect(entirely possible as it's really complex) or you had a faulty unit. Either way, it would suck to struggle with something for 2 years. I had a similar experience with my 2 channel system though the performance/sonics weren't as bad as you describe.
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post #11973 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
There are always going to be outlier results and those who simply do not like a piece. Then there are units that are faulty in some way, and the way you are describing it either you had some settings incorrect(entirely possible as it's really complex) or you had a faulty unit. Either way, it would suck to struggle with something for 2 years. I had a similar experience with my 2 channel system though the performance/sonics weren't as bad as you describe.


I know your right. But the settings are almost identical between the 2 units, and I sent the first one back as I was thinking like you (something has got to be wrong with this AVR)....But I will say, the thing that woke my system up the most, was the purchase of Ascend Raal Towers and Horizon Center. BUT...with my old M&K system, the Denon was just not up to the job. I think it was in the pre-amp section, as I tried the 7500. It was quieter in the quiet passages, but SQ was lethargic with loud music
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post #11974 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts the two Pioneer Elite units (SC-05 / 84TXSi) I measured and the one Onkyo (NR809) I measured were all able to output ~22Vpp at the onset of clipping. Neither clipped with the LFE only tone played at 0dB with the subwoofer trim at 0. They all had at least several extra dB of output headroom. So, based on that, I would say yes, the 4520CI is deficient compared to similarly priced units in this regard. Compared to a pre-pro I don't know. I will see about measuring my Sherbourn pre-pro later.

I used a Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope to examine the waveform and take the measurements of the Denon. I used a Lecroy (don't know the model number) scope on the two Pioneer units. The Onkyo was measured with a trueRMS multimeter and some spreadsheet calculations to determine the onset of clipping.
Devil's advocate would say, when was scope last calibrated?
If you checked those other units with this same scope would you get the same results as you did with a different one?
If it is so, is it just your one sample unit that is defective?
Are all 4520's going to measure the same?

A lot of variables with too few data.

With my modest system, I'm going to enjoy it.
If I find a real world problem in my usage, I'll deal with it.

Thanks for the input and testing.
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post #11975 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 08:52 AM
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Here is my take:

I run my subs 10db hot and have been for a long time (had the 4520 since 10/14), and have heard some great and powerful bass in movies.

I am a little miff'd at the concept of how its clipping though. Shame on Denon if everything is correct.

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post #11976 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Devil's advocate would say, when was scope last calibrated?
It wasn't calibrated. It is however, brand new. It's a $400 scope. I'm a hobbyist and I'm not doing lab grade work. I'm 100% sure when it shows clipping, the signal is clipping. However, if you have a calibrated lab grade scope with a 5 figures price tag you'd like to send me I'll be happy to repeat the measurements.

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If you checked those other units with this same scope would you get the same results as you did with a different one?
I haven't re-checked the other units yet with this scope. However, the key isn't the voltage of the measurements. It's the volume on the 4520CI when clipping starts.

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If it is so, is it just your one sample unit that is defective?
I'm not sure I'd say it's defective. It's design limited. IMHO, the design limit doesn't allow for quite enough real world usage.

Quote:
Are all 4520's going to measure the same?
I would expect they will all clip at the basically same point. I people want to provide me access to more units to measure, I'd be happy to do so.

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A lot of variables with too few data.
I disagree. I provided the data necessary for my assertion. The LFE output clips under some conditions that are realizable in actual use.
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post #11977 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
More importantly lets get back to running 10db hot subs at reference volume!! That means the SW system needs to be capable of 125dB (!!) peaks at the listening position....

.
Why would anyone do this?
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post #11978 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 09:06 AM
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You guys do realize that running a sub at 85db, when other speakers in the system are set to 75db, is not abnormal? Been done for a long time...

Some people do +5, some +8, YMMV.

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post #11979 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 09:42 AM
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I need a little persuading. Local bestbuy has the 4520 open box for $689, was in the magnolia room, rep claimed it was in a rack away from the public and claims its pristine. Its only missing the manuals. Does anyone know if Denon's 3 Yr warranty would still be intact even though its an open box? Bestbuy claims all open boxes still carry mfg full warranty.
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post #11980 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by DrewRosenHouse View Post
I need a little persuading. Local bestbuy has the 4520 open box for $689, was in the magnolia room, rep claimed it was in a rack away from the public and claims its pristine. Its only missing the manuals. Does anyone know if Denon's 3 Yr warranty would still be intact even though its an open box? Bestbuy claims all open boxes still carry mfg full warranty.
I'd do it.
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post #11981 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 09:49 AM
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Get something on record from them for the warranty, and get it!

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post #11982 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 10:17 AM
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Jump on it

Yes it will have full warranty. For that kind of money for a flag ship receiver go for it. Hell you cam sell it on e-bay and make money.
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post #11983 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts the two Pioneer Elite units (SC-05 / 84TXSi) I measured and the one Onkyo (NR809) I measured were all able to output ~22Vpp at the onset of clipping. Neither clipped with the LFE only tone played at 0dB with the subwoofer trim at 0. They all had at least several extra dB of output headroom. So, based on that, I would say yes, the 4520CI is deficient compared to similarly priced units in this regard. Compared to a pre-pro I don't know. I will see about measuring my Sherbourn pre-pro later.

I used a Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope to examine the waveform and take the measurements of the Denon. I used a Lecroy (don't know the model number) scope on the two Pioneer units. The Onkyo was measured with a trueRMS multimeter and some spreadsheet calculations to determine the onset of clipping.
How did you hook up the scope, inside the sub?
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post #11984 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 10:56 AM
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You guys do realize that running a sub at 85db, when other speakers in the system are set to 75db, is not abnormal? Been done for a long time...
Well, that depends on your test tones. With a -30dBFS signal the mains should put out 75dB (each) and the sub(s) should put out 85dB. If that's what you're referring to, your subwoofer is not set 10dB hot. It's set correctly.
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post #11985 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
How did you hook up the scope, inside the sub?
No, I connected it to a cut off RCA cable plugged into the SW1 output on the 4520CI.
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post #11986 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Well, that depends on your test tones. With a -30dBFS signal the mains should put out 75dB (each) and the sub(s) should put out 85dB. If that's what you're referring to, your subwoofer is not set 10dB hot. It's set correctly.
Maybe hot is incorrect terminology. It is my understanding XT32 calibrates all to 75db. I set the gain on both subs where trim level is -8.5db at the completion of Audyssey. I then boost trim level to +1.5db.

Seeing as it sets my sub at -8.5db, I would assume they are putting out about 83.5db's when XT32 runs, and it is dialing them back.

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post #11987 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Maybe hot is incorrect terminology. It is my understanding XT32 calibrates all to 75db. I set the gain on both subs where trim level is -8.5db at the completion of Audyssey. I then boost trim level to +1.5db.

Seeing as it sets my sub at -8.5db, I would assume they are putting out about 83.5db's when XT32 runs, and it is dialing them back.
Well, I'm not sure what volume the Denon puts out of the sub during the test tones. But it knows that the subwoofer is supposed to be 10dB higher than the other channels and takes that into account. So, if you turn it up by 10dB after that you are running it 10dB hot.
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post #11988 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Well, I'm not sure what volume the Denon puts out of the sub during the test tones. But it knows that the subwoofer is supposed to be 10dB higher than the other channels and takes that into account. So, if you turn it up by 10dB after that you are running it 10dB hot.
Some models have you set the sub to 75db before you start (sub), so I am pretty sure audyssey calibrates all of it at 75db. So effectively, I am running my sub 10db over that, or 85db. I have seen jdsmoothie comment that if audyssey sets you sub level at -10db, it means with the current gain setting you were at 85db, so it is correcting it down to 75db like the other speakers with the -30 tone. I did a good bit of reading where folks ran subs at 80-85db and their other speakers at 75db (test tones), and Chad B confirmed. So I boost the sub trim 10db after audyssey is done.

The Hsu's handle this fine and it makes movies a blast.

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post #11989 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:27 AM
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I have conducted countless level measurements following an Audyssey calibration using REW. All speaker levels including the sub are at, or very close to, 75dB, measured at the MLP. If you run 10dB hot by increasing the sub trim by 10dB, then you would measure 85dB at the MLP.
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post #11990 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:31 AM
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Thanks, that was my impression. And to be honest, I haven't done measurements in a long time. Any time I run XT32, I follow the same simple process that I have found to work. The +10db change on the subs being one.

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post #11991 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:47 AM
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I have conducted countless level measurements following an Audyssey calibration using REW. All speaker levels including the sub are at, or very close to, 75dB, measured at the MLP. If you run 10dB hot by increasing the sub trim by 10dB, then you would measure 85dB at the MLP.
So we're all running subs not even at reference if we don't bump up the sub 10dB if doing an Audyssey calibration on this unit? I guess that would explain why many feel it lacks bass
You have test material that accounts for the difference in discrete LFE content? How would just adjusting the sub trim by 10dB affect the average level for all speakers to come up to 85dB?
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post #11992 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
No, I connected it to a cut off RCA cable plugged into the SW1 output on the 4520CI.
Ok, just wondered if it was under load or what.
Maybe there's a way to do it hooked up to an actual sub.
Not sure it would make a difference but it could.
I'm all for testing things and I'm not doubting you got what you got but is like to know more before I make any real assumptions.

I consider this a hobby also and although I could do all kinds of measurements (30 yr Field Service Eng in the Medical Laser Industry), it seems more like "work" to me.

Maybe someone with audio design knowledge could chime in or give some insight into if this makes a difference or not.
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post #11993 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:53 AM
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So we're all running subs not even at reference if we don't bump up the sub 10dB if doing an Audyssey calibration on this unit? I guess that would explain why many feel it lacks bass
You have test material that accounts for the difference in discrete LFE content? How would just adjusting the sub trim by 10dB affect the average level for all speakers to come up to 85dB?
I always felt the sub(s) lacked a little after audyssey, but I really do like audyssey overall. I'm still somewhat new to serious audio compared to a lot of folks (5 years or so), so I was unaware running the subs in the 80's was quite normal. Once I started doing that, it really woke them up. I mean I didnt buy dual 15" subs so they could sit there and look pretty !

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post #11994 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I always felt the sub(s) lacked a little after audyssey, but I really do like audyssey overall. I'm still somewhat new to serious audio compared to a lot of folks (5 years or so), so I was unaware running the subs in the 80's was quite normal. Once I started doing that, it really woke them up. I mean I didnt buy dual 15" subs so they could sit there and look pretty !
I think the calibration is likely more accurate than bumping up your subs by 10dB. I think many of us simply like more bass, though. Just for kicks I just set my subs each up 10dB on top of what Audyssey set, for me, that's excessive....
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post #11995 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 12:06 PM
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I am not sure that I agree setting the subs and other speakers to 75db is "accurate". I've found in 2 different homes the sub was too low. I also do not use dynamic EQ, I actually hate it, because when you are watching stuff around -20 to -15, it's boomy. I cut it off every time, and just boost the sub. I also said that not everyone goes 10db, I got that number when Chad B was here and he did the testing. It would likely vary from home to home. Some of my feeling comes from how you feel the bass in a nice cinema, vs the level at home. Since boosting, I experience nice clean bass that I feel is more evident as it should be.

Take a look:

How 'hot' do you run your sub(s) for movie?


Most recommendation I have read is set the subs "80-85db", with speakers set to 75db. But YMMV.

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Last edited by gadgtfreek; 04-19-2015 at 12:10 PM.
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post #11996 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
I am not sure that I agree setting the subs and other speakers to 75db is "accurate". I've found in 2 different homes the sub was too low. I also do not use dynamic EQ, I actually hate it, because when you are watching stuff around -20 to -15, it's boomy. I cut it off every time, and just boost the sub. I also said that not everyone goes 10db, I got that number when Chad B was here and he did the testing. It would likely vary from home to home.

Take a look:

How 'hot' do you run your sub(s) for movie?


Most recommendation I have read is set the subs "80-85db".
Who is Chad B?
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post #11997 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Who is Chad B?

AV calibrator. Displays, Audyssey Pro and REW. I had him do an Audyssey pro cal and room eval about a year ago. May have it done again once I get all the new gear in place. You learn some things about what your gear is doing in that room, and it helps with finding proper settings beyond what Audyssey does.

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post #11998 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I think the calibration is likely more accurate than bumping up your subs by 10dB. I think many of us simply like more bass, though. Just for kicks I just set my subs each up 10dB on top of what Audyssey set, for me, that's excessive....
This was my first thought. 10 dB is a considerable amount and imo and experience think the sub would drown out alot of the other speakers' nuances in other frequencies.
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post #11999 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 12:19 PM
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Mine sound stage is wide open, I just dont have that issue. When I watch crazy action scenes, nothing oversteps the other. I have a big room with high ceilings though, and one side leaks out into the dining and kitchen area. It is not ideal, which was another reason I went to one 15" and then two. The 12" Hsu that wasn't near enough here slams in my friends living room. I think you gotta go with what the room requires, and audyssey isn't the end all be all. it gets you most of the way, but you can still tweak it (levels and xover settings). I think the room correction aspect does a good job.

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post #12000 of 12189 Old 04-19-2015, 12:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I think the calibration is likely more accurate than bumping up your subs by 10dB. I think many of us simply like more bass, though. Just for kicks I just set my subs each up 10dB on top of what Audyssey set, for me, that's excessive....
I also found +10dB excessive, and I found +5dB over Audyssey setting still a little tiny bit excessive, but +3dB over is just about perfect
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