The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 401 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12001 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by bgoering View Post
I also found +10dB excessive, and I found +5dB over Audyssey setting still a little tiny bit excessive, but +3dB over is just about perfect
That is what I usually tell folks in the Hsu thread. After running audyssey, try 5 around db up, and tinker. End of the day you find 3db worked well for you, and not what Audyssey wanted it to be. That is the whole point here, this is something you can safely tinker with.

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post #12002 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post
Did you go to the poll results?
yes, I voted. The poll shows there is a vast amount of options, with not one being right. I mean 40% are over 3db's. You guys are focusing too much on my 10db setting, there is a wide range between 0 and +10db and you have to try it for yourself. I never said 10db was correct for everyone.

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post #12003 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Mine sound stage is wide open, I just dont have that issue. When I watch crazy action scenes, nothing oversteps the other. I have a big room with high ceilings though, and one side leaks out into the dining and kitchen area. It is not ideal, which was another reason I went to one 15" and then two. The 12" Hsu that wasn't near enough here slams in my friends living room. I think you gotta go with what the room requires, and audyssey isn't the end all be all. it gets you most of the way, but you can still tweak it (levels and xover settings). I think the room correction aspect does a good job.
You just need more/bigger/better subs to compensate for that huge space....
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post #12004 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
So we're all running subs not even at reference if we don't bump up the sub 10dB if doing an Audyssey calibration on this unit? I guess that would explain why many feel it lacks bass
No, that's not the case. Audyssey uses a -40dBFS tone for the sub so they're all 75dB. People using REW aren't sending the receiver a dedicated .1 via a digital connection.

I can assure you from my testing that if you play the same -xx dBFS tone encoded in the left speaker with multi channel audio (DTS 5.1 in this case) and then encoded in the subwoofer, the sub will be 10dB louder than the left speaker. Just like it's supposed to be.
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post #12005 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:27 PM
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...and if you bump up each of the sub channels by 10dB, that would yield approx additional 3-6dB summed response depending on sub placement/room, no?
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post #12006 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
You just need more/bigger/better subs to compensate for that huge space....
LOL, NO.

My wife would kill me, the dual VTF15's take up enough.

I looked back at my notes, Chad actually went +8 db's on the subs. I went to 10 on my own.

We watched Interstellar the other night and they didnt have any issue at 0.0 on the AVR, so they are ok

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post #12007 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
No, that's not the case. Audyssey uses a -40dBFS tone for the sub so they're all 75dB. People using REW aren't sending the receiver a dedicated .1 via a digital connection.

I can assure you from my testing that if you play the same -xx dBFS tone encoded in the left speaker with multi channel audio (DTS 5.1 in this case) and then encoded in the subwoofer, the sub will be 10dB louder than the left speaker. Just like it's supposed to be.
That's always been my understanding, there's a difference between what a test tone is and how that information is used by the avr.
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post #12008 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
yes, I voted. The poll shows there is a vast amount of options, with not one being right. I mean 40% are over 3db's. You guys are focusing too much on my 10db setting, there is a wide range between 0 and +10db and you have to try it for yourself. I never said 10db was correct for everyone.
I completely understand that you may have a preference but the only point I was making is that in that poll there are some serious Bassheads and less than 3% (2 people-evidently you are one of them) raise them that much and the vast majority less than 3 dB.

Again, there is no 'wrong' answer insofar as preference is concerned, but there is also a reason for the status quo... I realize this is OT for this thread and will come back with a link for those wishing to carry on the discussion.

EDIT: Here it is: Klipsch Speakers and Audyssey Setup Discussion

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post #12009 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:32 PM
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One final cool note, since we got on subs . From two very smart guys:

From Audyssey thread:

c)5. What is the LPF of LFE and what should it be set to?

First of all, Audyssey doesn't touch this setting. Neither is it a Crossover, although you will often see it described as such. It stands for Low Pass Filter of the LowFrequency Effects Channel. The Low Frequency Effects (LFE) channel is the .1 in a 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 audio track and it carries special content put there by the content mixer. The Low Pass Filter is the filter that is applied to that content. The content is authored up to 120Hz so the only setting that is correct for this is 120Hz. If you set it to anything below 120Hz then any content between 120Hz and whatever you set it to is lost. It is not redirected anywhere - it is simply discarded. This filter has nothing to do with any speaker Crossovers etc and it is not set by Audyssey. The only reason it is in the FAQ is that people often think that Audyssey has set it and they confuse it with their speaker Crossovers. Just set it at 120Hz and leave it there.

UPDATED VIEWPOINT: The paragraph above represents the conventional Audyssey thinking on this issue. However, Roger Dressler (formerly of Dolby Labs and the guy who helped them develop many of their technologies, including bass management) and Mark Seaton (founder and owner of Seaton Sound, makers of the legendary Submersive subwoofers) have both recently put forward an alternative view. Mark explains it like this in this post:

"I personally tend to set the low pass on the LFE channel at 80Hz in most systems by preference. I think many forget that the difference between a 120Hz low pass and an 80Hz low pass is nothing more than a shelving filter. If the low pass is 4th order, the 80Hz filter is about 7dB lower at 100Hz and about 4dB at 80Hz. A 100Hz low pass setting would have about 1/2 that difference. The adjustment has more effect on shaping the LFE track's response than it does on cutting off content. If you're running the subs with a rising response on the low end which blends with the main speakers, experimenting with 80, 100 vs. 120Hz is basically a means to taper the top end of the LFE channel. Setting this lower than 120Hz is not hacking off content any more than setting your sub a few dB hot would destroy a soundtrack."

What this means in effect is that you do NOT lose the content between 80Hz and 120Hz if you set the LPF of LFE to 80Hz - you simply alter the way it is presented, because the filter is not a brickwall but a shelving filter. Setting it to 80Hz simply allows you to 'shape' the LFE track's response.

Roger goes on to elaborate more in a separate post (my bolding below):

"Back when DTS was making their name with Jurassic Park and Apollo 13 on 35mm film, the LFE bandwidth was 80 Hz. The Dolby Digital codec has a bandlimited LFE channel, and it has a brickwall filter at 120 Hz as a means to protect the LFE channel from higher frequencies (which can still be present even with a 4th-order LPF at 80 Hz). It seems that when films moved from optical to digital delivery, the LFE bandwidth crept up to 120 Hz or maybe even higher (the PCM LFE channel has no inherent response limitation). I suppose it helps less than magnificent subwoofers in "regular" cinemas provide more whomp. But I find that LFE in the 100-120 Hz region is just a lot of boominess that unfortunately too often clouds the deeper bass in the bottom 2 octaves. Setting the LFE filter to 80 Hz does a dandy job of dealing with that boominess IMHO.

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post #12010 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:33 PM
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After talking with a few people, i was surprised to see how many were already doing that (running the LPF at 80hz and not 120).

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post #12011 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:34 PM
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Speakers measuring 75dB after the calibration is Reference. Raising the sub level higher is Preference, and there is certainly nothing wrong with doing so. Many studies have shown that most listeners prefer a gentle rise in the bass frequencies, which you have all heard referred to as a "house curve". How aggressive you are with your house curve is purely preference--what ever sounds best to you is the right answer.
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post #12012 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
One final cool note, since we got on subs . From two very smart guys:

From Audyssey thread:.

...Setting this lower than 120Hz is not hacking off content any more than setting your sub a few dB hot would destroy a soundtrack."

.
Those are great sources.

I have no comment on lowering the LPF but wondered how much you can raise the gain on the sub before it does "destroy a soundtrack"

As mentioned, a few dBs is one thing--Anthing approaching 10 dBs seems like it could affect the sound track. Granted, tactile sensation may be rewarding, but at what cost insofar as what the directer/sound engineer wanted you to hear.

Btw, sorry for the thread crapping but this piqued my interest...If someone has an external link to what the professionals say it would be greatly appreciated.

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post #12013 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 01:02 PM
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No clue, I did not post that to continue the "hot subs" talk, that was just to help anyone setting audyssey up, that maybe 120 LPF settings aren't always perfect and there is a good argument for 80.

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post #12014 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 02:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
So we're all running subs not even at reference if we don't bump up the sub 10dB if doing an Audyssey calibration on this unit? I guess that would explain why many feel it lacks bass
No, that's not the case. Audyssey uses a -40dBFS tone for the sub so they're all 75dB. People using REW aren't sending the receiver a dedicated .1 via a digital connection.

I can assure you from my testing that if you play the same -xx dBFS tone encoded in the left speaker with multi channel audio (DTS 5.1 in this case) and then encoded in the subwoofer, the sub will be 10dB louder than the left speaker. Just like it's supposed to be.
Guys there are some concepts being confused here. People are conflating the standard 10db LFE boost with the SW channel level.

All speakers are set to 75db with a -30dbfs tone. This is reference. The sub is NOT supposed to be calibrated 10db hot. Rather, the LFE channel has a built in 10db boost applied in the processor. Calibrating to 75db is correct and then LFE material has 10db more headroom (115db peaks instead of 105db for the other channels).

If then ALSO boost your subs by 10db you are running 10db hot and that is a preference setting. That means LFE peaks will be 125db (!!) at the listening position at full scale and the sub will probably be louder due to redirected bass from other channels. Not a lot of subs can do that.

A lot of people do argue for sub boost because Audyssey flattening the sub is effectively erasing room gain, which many people find pleasing. Thus the preference of many people to boost the subs a bit (or a lot).

And obviously if you don't use DEQ and then listen at below reference volume you will definitely want to boost the subs by necessity or bass will sound anemic.
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post #12015 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 02:04 PM
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Thanks.

I always thought even the sub was set to 75db, but I also had read at reference the speaker channel was set to hit 105db, while sub was allotted peaks to 115db.

They overlap and can confuse things.

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post #12016 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 03:05 PM
 
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Remember, this is one unit sample.
...
If you're in the warranty period and it is of concern, send it in. Maybe there's a component or other problem that is repairable
If it is a hardware design issue related to low rail voltages then I would imagine that the issue would be common to all units of the same model, ie, 4520.

The rail voltages that go to the 2 e-volume chips, renesas r2a15220fp, are +-7volts only. I am not motivated enough to look for the datasheets for these chips but I would imagine that max pp outputs would be around a couple of volts off or just around 12v.
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post #12017 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 03:59 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Well, I'm not sure what volume the Denon puts out of the sub during the test tones. But it knows that the subwoofer is supposed to be 10dB higher than the other channels and takes that into account. So, if you turn it up by 10dB after that you are running it 10dB hot.
I think the avr4520 is designed to use TWO (2) subs if potential clipping is to be avoided.
I would think that running 2 subs instead of one (1) would mitigate against clipping.
Attached is a section of the DACS that show the gain structure of the various channels.
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post #12018 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
A lot of people do argue for sub boost because Audyssey flattening the sub is effectively erasing room gain, which many people find pleasing. Thus the preference of many people to boost the subs a bit (or a lot).

And obviously if you don't use DEQ and then listen at below reference volume you will definitely want to boost the subs by necessity or bass will sound anemic.
FWIW, in my room with my calibrated mic (at the MLP) measurements say that Audyssey calibrated the subs about 5dB too quiet.
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post #12019 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by doognam View Post
I think the avr4520 is designed to use TWO (2) subs if potential clipping is to be avoided.
I would think that running 2 subs instead of one (1) would mitigate against clipping.
Attached is a section of the DACS that show the gain structure of the various channels.
Interesting. I'll admit I have no idea what I am looking at in that image, and I'll add Ive not "heard" any issues with my dual subs cranked.

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post #12020 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
Guys there are some concepts being confused here. People are conflating the standard 10db LFE boost with the SW channel level.

All speakers are set to 75db with a -30dbfs tone. This is reference. The sub is NOT supposed to be calibrated 10db hot. Rather, the LFE channel has a built in 10db boost applied in the processor. Calibrating to 75db is correct and then LFE material has 10db more headroom (115db peaks instead of 105db for the other channels).

If then ALSO boost your subs by 10db you are running 10db hot and that is a preference setting. That means LFE peaks will be 125db (!!) at the listening position at full scale and the sub will probably be louder due to redirected bass from other channels. Not a lot of subs can do that.

A lot of people do argue for sub boost because Audyssey flattening the sub is effectively erasing room gain, which many people find pleasing. Thus the preference of many people to boost the subs a bit (or a lot).

And obviously if you don't use DEQ and then listen at below reference volume you will definitely want to boost the subs by necessity or bass will sound anemic.
Tons of misinformation/confusion lately.
not to mention very few home theaters can actually hit 125dB of bass.


very few...








-----


The AVR should be not clipping the signal at 0 main volume and the sub channel set to 0 trim. But if it starts at -.5dB or whatever --- that's not really that big of a deal at all.
That said - it's never really ideal to run your sub trim into the positive on any AVR if you plan to take the main volume to 0. I've been told by some major players in the industry to try to run your sub trim no hotter than -3dB to give you a little cushion. If you go above reference on your volume trim then you should lower your sub trim further. The two play together. IE if you put your subs at -5dB trim, then your MLV (main listening volume) should be able to go to +5dB. If you turn your subs to -10dB you should be able to go to +10dB on the MLV without encountering clipping. I usually have my sub trim at -9dB which is about 6dB hot on my subs. That way I have quite a bit of flexibility to turn my subs up louder than 6dB hot, or can turn them down to true reference levels ---- but I'm not in any danger of clipping. I have no interest in dropping subs below reference levels. BTW - this is on my Onkyo 5508 which has a subwoofer range of -15 to +15dB instead of -12dB to + 12dB. So to do the same thing with the Denon IIRC which has -12 through +12dB range on subwoofer thim (that is -- to be able to play both at true reference by backing the subs off, and run 6dB hot typically -- yet still have some room to play I'd match the sub test tone to 75dB at -6dB on the subwoofer channel trim. You do this adjustment by adjusting the input attenuators (gain knob) on your subwoofer amplifier.

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post #12021 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 04:55 PM
 
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Interesting. I'll admit I have no idea what I am looking at in that image, and I'll add Ive not "heard" any issues with my dual subs cranked.
I am so sorry. But anyway, the circuits show that each of the sub channels is boosted 7db - but there are two of them so, imho, there should be enough to avoid clipping.

So if one wishes to listen loud and/or has a big listening room then two (2) subs is mandatory.
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post #12022 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 04:55 PM
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I have always felt Audyssey set my sub levels too low. I boost it at least 10dB.
With movies it is great but it sounds a little bass heavy with some music.
I have Eight 18" Sealed Subs with a ton of power but I have never had any issues with
"clipping" or at least I have not heard any. I do know that on bass heavy scenes (for example
I just watched a scene from Terminator Salvation and it literally shook the house) it is incredible!
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post #12023 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Glock3540 View Post
I have always felt Audyssey set my sub levels too low. I boost it at least 10dB.
With movies it is great but it sounds a little bass heavy with some music.
I have Eight 18" Sealed Subs with a ton of power but I have never had any issues with
"clipping" or at least I have not heard any. I do know that on bass heavy scenes (for example
I just watched a scene from Terminator Salvation and it literally shook the house) it is incredible!
Blessings,
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Where's your MV set when you watch? Like for that demo of Terminator?
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post #12024 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 06:08 PM
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Dangerous Noise Levels...

http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/edu...-hearing-loss/

Another link to a chart and some notes regarding hearing loss in musicians: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

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post #12025 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 06:10 PM
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LOL, thanks mom.

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post #12026 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 06:27 PM
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Wait a minute, so I get busy for a weekend and 70+ posts all of a sudden about how a Denon flagship (ok, prior flagship) is all messed up on the sub gain and clipping and ?
Post 11921

Really?

I had 2 families over last night - 12 people in the HT, did a few demo clips and we watched The Hobbit 5 armies and all sounded good/great.

Remarks;
I have the volume limiter set to 0db MV - I've never ever felt the need to go above MV, and this way when my kids use the HT when i'm not around they don't damage their ears.
When I do my calibration for each sub I'm about 73db which combined shows 75db, and the audyssey trim comes in around -2db overall based on where I've set the amp gain (attenuation knob ) of the EP2500 (IB subs) and iNuke6000 (2 more subs, sealed). I then run the subs just slightly "hot", like 1.5db more, in the combined sub trim setting ....
Am I experiencing LFE clipping? Honestly I've never measured to see, but I don't think so.

We usually watch at -12db MV, depends on the movie mix..... So I'm below the threshold that was measured?

Last edited by mtbdudex; 04-19-2015 at 06:31 PM.
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post #12027 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mtbdudex View Post
Wait a minute, so I get busy for a weekend and 70+ posts all of a sudden about how a Denon flagship (ok, prior flagship) is all messed up on the sub gain and clipping and ?
Post 11921

Really?

I had 2 families over last night - 12 people in the HT, did a few demo clips and we watched The Hobbit 5 armies and all sounded good/great.

Remarks;
I have the volume limiter set to 0db MV - I've never ever felt the need to go above MV, and this way when my kids use the HT when i'm not around they don't damage their ears.
When I do my calibration for each sub I'm about 73db which combined shows 75db, and the audyssey trim comes in around -2db overall based on where I've set the amp gain (attenuation knob ) of the EP2500 (IB subs) and iNuke6000 (2 more subs, sealed). I then run the subs just slightly "hot", like 1.5db more, in the combined sub trim setting ....
Am I experiencing LFE clipping? Honestly I've never measured to see, but I don't think so.

We usually watch at -12db MV, depends on the movie mix..... So I'm below the threshold that was measured?
If I read you right Audyssey comes in at -2 and you change it to -0.5dB which, if you have confidence in stereodude's measurements AND you are listening at reference, will put you right on the edge. If however, you are like me and generally listen at -10dB MV you are fine.

Personally with the measurements to this point being based on a 4520CI sample size of one unit, I am not worried at all about it. I expect any number of things (other than a design deficiency) could cause this measurement on a single unit...
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post #12028 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bgoering View Post
If I read you right Audyssey comes in at -2 and you change it to -0.5dB which, if you have confidence in stereodude's measurements AND you are listening at reference, will put you right on the edge. If however, you are like me and generally listen at -10dB MV you are fine.

Personally with the measurements to this point being based on a 4520CI sample size of one unit, I am not worried at all about it. I expect any number of things (other than a design deficiency) could cause this measurement on a single unit...
I'm just glad none of the movies I own or have watched are uncoupled 40Hz test tones...

;-p
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post #12029 of 12745 Old 04-19-2015, 09:23 PM
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Does this clipping happen to all the other RCA multichannel pre-outs?
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post #12030 of 12745 Old 04-20-2015, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
Does this clipping happen to all the other RCA multichannel pre-outs?
Most likely... If you had the channel trim at +10dB it would likely clip at Reference with a 0dBFS signal or if you have the channel trim at 0dB it would likely clip at +10dB above Reference. However, most people run their speakers small and most of the energy tends to be low frequency, so that doesn't seem too likely to actually happen but it would be possible.
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