The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 404 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12091 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 09:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdom58 View Post



I'm just wondering if anyone has tried these variations, I'll give it a go tonight to see if it makes a difference with my room set up, here is the link
I read, and contributed, to that HTS thread. There are hundred and hundreds of posts where people are obsessing about mic placements. I have done at least a hundred Audyssey calibrations over the last several years, both consumer calibrations and Pro calibrations, and have used REW to measure the results. In my opinion, as long as you follow the general guidelines, mic placements don't make a big difference in the calibration results. You are better off not obsessing like so many others have done, and just enjoy your new system.
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post #12092 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 09:47 AM
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Hey folks,


since I have had my 4530 for about a week now I'm still learning and experimenting with mic positions to try and get the best sounds out of my system. I have played with slight variations of the recommended Audyssey placement and ran across an article this morning in search of other options (still think it could improve a bit in my room) over at Home Theater Shack where they tested the effects of different mic placements with varying results. For example the best result for my 101 type of set up was :


Recommended Setup Mic Patterns





101, 101B, 102 - Best Image Clarity and good frequency response coverage. All dimensions are relative to PLP Center (PLPC):
  1. PLP center
  2. 3 inches forward
  3. 3 inches up
  4. 3 up & 3 forward
  5. 3 inches left
  6. 3 inches right
  7. plus points for 2 other LPs (except 6-point MultEQ)
For 101B, first four points are relative to the high seat back "wings," the rest are relative to the seat back


I'm just wondering if anyone has tried these variations, I'll give it a go tonight to see if it makes a difference with my room set up, here is the link to the artice:


http://www.hometheatershack.com/foru...tup-guide.html
Yes the mic placements can make a difference, or at least they do in my room. I had my setup sounding awesome until i had to do a factory reset on my 4520. Once i did the reset i went to load the old settings, and found out the save wasn't good... Now i am having a hard time getting it to sound like i had it before. I am going to be trying a lot of mic placements to get back top where i was before.

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post #12093 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 10:57 AM
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^^^

And, when you do get it sounding right again and do another config save....open it with a hex editor and make sure it's good (not all zeros).

AVR: Denon 4520ci, FL/R: Klipschorn, CC: Klipsch RC-64ii, SUR: Polk LS/FX x4, FH: Klipsch RB-51ii x2, SUB: PSA T-18 x2, DISP: Mitsubishi WD-73740, BluRay: PS3 & BDP-S5100, Remote: URC MX-700
--------------------------------------------------
Getting Started with REW
Audyssey 101
Audyssey FAQ
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post #12094 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Yes the mic placements can make a difference, or at least they do in my room. I had my setup sounding awesome until i had to do a factory reset on my 4520. Once i did the reset i went to load the old settings, and found out the save wasn't good... Now i am having a hard time getting it to sound like i had it before. I am going to be trying a lot of mic placements to get back top where i was before.
Think about what you are saying. You performed a calibration that that resulted in what you describe as awesome sound, but you can't remember the "magic" mic placements. So now you are doomed to keep trying a bunch of placements trying to duplicate your earlier success. Does this sound like a reliable, repeatable technology? And how can you be sure of what that awesome calibration sounded like, unless you have a snapshot in the form of measurements? Our audio memory is notoriously short, and easily very subjective.

As long as you follow the general mic placement guidelines, results should be similar and repeatable, assuming nothing else changes. Otherwise, why bother?
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post #12095 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 12:41 PM
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Question about the scaler in the Denon 4520 (the receiver I use as a pre-pro). When I set the Denon to just pass the native signal (scaler is off) -- for almost all sources my Sony VPL- VW500ES projector operates perfectly and outputs a beautifully upscaled picture (and this is my current standard setting). The only minor quibble is when I am adjusting my Velodyne SMS-1 and using it as a "source" to display the video readout. Then I need to have the receiver actively scale the picture to 1080p before sending the image to the projector. For some reason -- the 500ES refuses to display the image from the SMS-1 feed natively through the Denon. Minor quibble -- not really an issue.

However, if I ask the Denon to scale the video to 4K (and do the up-converting) with a source like say Blu Ray (via my PS3 or PS4) or DirecTV (or any other source for that matter), the 500ES will display no picture at all. Why is the 500ES unable to display the 4K scaled image from the Denon 4520?

I am using HDMI 1 on the 500ES if that mattes.

It doesn't really bother me as most all of my content is either 1080p (blu ray, HD-DVD, games) or 720p/1080i (DirecTV) -- and the Sony PJ handles the up-scaling without issue. But I was just wondering how well the Denon could do the upscaling -- and it seems that the Sony and Denon refuse to play nicely when the Denon handles the 4K upscaling.

Is this a known issue?

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post #12096 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Think about what you are saying. You performed a calibration that that resulted in what you describe as awesome sound, but you can't remember the "magic" mic placements. So now you are doomed to keep trying a bunch of placements trying to duplicate your earlier success. Does this sound like a reliable, repeatable technology? And how can you be sure of what that awesome calibration sounded like, unless you have a snapshot in the form of measurements? Our audio memory is notoriously short, and easily very subjective.

As long as you follow the general mic placement guidelines, results should be similar and repeatable, assuming nothing else changes. Otherwise, why bother?
Iif you look at the mic placement info you can see that different placements will give different results. Some recommend 3" apart for each measurement, and others go up to 3' apart. It def makes a difference where they are placed. I even called a place up that does room tunes, and they confirmed the placement will alter the sound. I am trying to get the best possible sound out of my system which is why I am being so picky. I know that some of my friends were happy with the sound 10 (arbitrary number) adjustments ago, but they also commented about how much better it sounded before the reset was done then in the earlier adjustments.

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post #12097 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM
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That's what I was thinking, there is a definite visual difference in the graphs at different positions, the question now is, is there an noticeable audio difference you can actually hear


I'll give the different placements a go over the weekend and drive my wife nuts just for the fun of it and see how it goes, worst that can happen is I'll get a shoe thrown at me or something LOL
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post #12098 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Iif you look at the mic placement info you can see that different placements will give different results. Some recommend 3" apart for each measurement, and others go up to 3' apart. It def makes a difference where they are placed. I even called a place up that does room tunes, and they confirmed the placement will alter the sound. I am trying to get the best possible sound out of my system which is why I am being so picky. I know that some of my friends were happy with the sound 10 (arbitrary number) adjustments ago, but they also commented about how much better it sounded before the reset was done then in the earlier adjustments.
So why are you having difficulty reproducing your previous "awesome" calibration? Did you forget where you placed the mics for that calibration, or is there a randomness to the results regardless of mic placement?
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post #12099 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 01:11 PM
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So why are you having difficulty reproducing your previous "awesome" calibration? Did you forget where you placed the mics for that calibration, or is there a randomness to the results regardless of mic placement?
I forgot where I placed the mics for the calibration.

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post #12100 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 01:23 PM
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I forgot where I placed the mics for the calibration.
Been there before. .
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post #12101 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 04:00 PM
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Think about what you are saying. ...
As long as you follow the general mic placement guidelines, results should be similar and repeatable, assuming nothing else changes. Otherwise, why bother?
Mic placements made a lot of difference in MY set-up, and the results are repeatable.

For a couple of years or so that I have been following/obeying the guidelines, I was never content with the results. I finally gave up on them and decided to experiment until I hear or perceive a more "proper, well balanced, and phase correct" sound from my set-up.

I can now repeatedly produce the desired results that I want - and my mic placements that I used are similar to those recently posted.

Of course, my set-up could be different in that the crossovers of the speakers are different from other speakers. Phase errors from my speakers could be different from others speakers. My room geometry is different, etc.

I suggest for newbies to start off with the general guidelines.
But for those with time to spare and more understanding espouse, experimentation might produce results that are way better than what can be achieved with the "general guidelines".
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post #12102 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 04:06 PM
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But for those with time to spare and more understanding espouse, experimentation might produce results that are way better than what can be achieved with the "general guidelines".
Please define "way better" and how this assessment is made.
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post #12103 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 04:33 PM
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Please define "way better" and how this assessment is made.
What is "way better" for me consists, at least, of the following:
1. Kick drums should sound like "real" kickdrums. I should be able to hear/perceive the precise moment when the drum is struck. Audessy can do funny and interesting things to the lower octaves. Try some tone bursts/test tones after calibration. I had difficulty making Audessy produce tone bursts "like kickdrums struck repeatedly" sound correctly. If it gets the timing right in one octave, the other octaves often would not be right.
2. I should not perceive any "boxiness" in Audessy's the lower octaves when A/Bing Audessy On and Off.
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post #12104 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
What is "way better" for me consists, at least, of the following:
1. Kick drums should sound like "real" kickdrums. I should be able to hear/perceive the precise moment when the drum is struck. Audessy can do funny and interesting things to the lower octaves. Try some tone bursts/test tones after calibration. I had difficulty making Audessy produce tone bursts "like kickdrums struck repeatedly" sound correctly. If it gets the timing right in one octave, the other octaves often would not be right.
2. I should not perceive any "boxiness" in Audessy's the lower octaves when A/Bing Audessy On and Off.
I was at that level of tune last time, and it was magical! When you listened before it was like all the veils were stripped right to the bone...now I want those veils away, but I am not sure if i will be lucky enough to get there again. We had a midrange to die for. Would you be willing to share with me your mic placements so i could give it a try? Do you recall what moving a mic say further from the MLP did to the tune? Did you do a close cluster in the end, or was it spread out to each seat? Any help would be appreciated. If you don't want to publish, feel free to PM me.

tia,
Ron

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post #12105 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 05:07 PM
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Just a thought guys as far as mic placement/Audyssey runs. Do you usually perform them at the same time of day so as to yield the same general noise floor?

I usually wait until quite late but we do have trains that roll through town and I try to avoid those (both for whistles and rumbling as I'm up the hill and a half mile from the tracks but the sound travels fairly well altho nothing like being close to them). One night I was fine with avoiding trains but there was a nearby flock of birds making a considerable amount of noise (and haven't heard that before or since), and probably enough for mic pickup. That probably the poorest result I've ever had....maybe it was just how annoyed I was but I did rerun it the next night and I did like the next result much better but didn't measure to evidence any differences. YMMV
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post #12106 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I was at that level of tune last time, and it was magical! When you listened before it was like all the veils were stripped right to the bone...now I want those veils away, but I am not sure if i will be lucky enough to get there again. We had a midrange to die for. Would you be willing to share with me your mic placements so i could give it a try? Do you recall what moving a mic say further from the MLP did to the tune? Did you do a close cluster in the end, or was it spread out to each seat? Any help would be appreciated. If you don't want to publish, feel free to PM me.

tia,
Ron
Hi Ron,
My mic placements may not be applicable to your unique set-up. But experimentation did it for me.

Here is how I did my goal-oriented Audessy calibration experiments to arrive at "my calibration formula" for my set up.

Step 1: Make 2 measurements only on the MLP. Note down the speaker and sub settings.
Do critical listening tests to find out what elements of the sound appear incorrect - such as boxiness, lumpiness, tone bursts timing, airiness, etc.

Now you have a baseline and tangible elements of to the sound you could work with and hopefully fix.

Steps 2 to n: Make other/more measurements, with the 1st at the MLP. Each time, do the critical listening tests to find out what kind of placements gets you closer or farther from your goal.
Do combinations of those early placements that yield positive results. I got very close to my goal with only 4 mic positions, and better at 6. I did 8 just to make Audessy happy I suppose but I did not perceive any more improvements after the 6th.


LAST: I found that Audessy consistently failed with tone bursts in my set up - so I manually adjusted the distances of the subs until I got better results. Instead of those calculated by Audessy I found the tone bursts are better with the distances measured with a tape measure. Experiment.


Regards,
Good man


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post #12107 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM
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Finally setup the 4520 and ran Audyssey (only did 5 mic positions, as I know this is a temporary setup and I might have to move furniture around...).

First impression? VERY pleased! I watched the fog/battle scene of Master and Commander and, having watched that scene countless times on my Yammy with YPAO, I could hear nuances that I did not with the Yamaha. I am impressed with what XT32 did, and I haven't fully done the whole 8 positions - and I was a bit careless with mic positions.

One thing that surprised me is that I watched this scene with MV at 0. With the Yamaha, I would only go to -10, -5 tops! It seems like I need to turn up the volume a bit more when watching movies.
Interesting enough, I'm watching the Red Sox at -37 MV and it sounds about the same as I did with the Yamaha. Odd.

Also, my OCD is kicking in with the "Multi Ch In" displaying. I read batpig's page about it and learned a bit more. Regardless, it bugs me a bit.

One big negative of this unit is the heat coming from it, even though it is on top of my TV stand, with more air flow than if I had in one of the shelves. My Yamaha would run super cool, even after watching an extended edition of one the Lord of the Rings movies. I might buy a cooling fan and place on top of it. That should be good when it's winter... But I'm kind of bummed, really, specially since summer is almost upon us.

Anyway, I'll watch a few movies over the weekend. Overall, I'm happy with it.

Yippee-ki-yay...
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post #12108 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
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Finally setup the 4520 and ran Audyssey (only did 5 mic positions, as I know this is a temporary setup and I might have to move furniture around...).

First impression? VERY pleased! I watched the fog/battle scene of Master and Commander and, having watched that scene countless times on my Yammy with YPAO, I could hear nuances that I did not with the Yamaha. I am impressed with what XT32 did, and I haven't fully done the whole 8 positions - and I was a bit careless with mic positions.

One thing that surprised me is that I watched this scene with MV at 0. With the Yamaha, I would only go to -10, -5 tops! It seems like I need to turn up the volume a bit more when watching movies.
Interesting enough, I'm watching the Red Sox at -37 MV and it sounds about the same as I did with the Yamaha. Odd.

Also, my OCD is kicking in with the "Multi Ch In" displaying. I read batpig's page about it and learned a bit more. Regardless, it bugs me a bit.

One big negative of this unit is the heat coming from it, even though it is on top of my TV stand, with more air flow than if I had in one of the shelves. My Yamaha would run super cool, even after watching an extended edition of one the Lord of the Rings movies. I might buy a cooling fan and place on top of it. That should be good when it's winter... But I'm kind of bummed, really, specially since summer is almost upon us.

Anyway, I'll watch a few movies over the weekend. Overall, I'm happy with it.
+1 on the cooling fan.
You should be fine but I like to keep it cool
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post #12109 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 08:51 PM
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+1 on the cooling fan.
You should be fine but I like to keep it cool
Ordered one from Amazon. Two fans from one USB or outlet source. Hope it's enough... Thanks!
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post #12110 of 12112 Old Yesterday, 08:54 PM
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Strange... Mine has never run hot enough for a fan. I have clearance on all sides, and the top it just gets luke warm, and it is on for at least 12 hours a day. Are yours getting warmer than that?

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post #12111 of 12112 Old Today, 01:59 AM
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Image 101 is pretty much close to what I do, but I really only have the one seat, I can squeeze more in, but it's hardly ideal for anyone :S
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post #12112 of 12112 Old Today, 07:08 AM
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Just got around to doing measurements for the first time and discovered a huge peak around 60Hz! I thought Audyssey was supposed to fix big peaks. Should I just try it again with slightly different mic placements? I don't exactly have a boom mic, I'm using a stand from my drum set that is similar to a boom mic. It allows me to set the stand on the floor just behind my sofa and extends out to where my head would be. Any suggestions?

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