The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 411 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12301 of 12314 Old Today, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
how did you discover this and what difference in sound did it make?

also what Marantz model were you using for comparison?

also could this have some bearing on the fact that this unit seems to need its microprocessor reset occasionally?

Warren
Hi Warren,

Q: how did you discover this
A: I actively looked for technical reasons why the 4520 sounded that way it did. So I acquired the model's technical manual.

Q: also what Marantz model were you using for comparison?
A: Most Marantz models use buffers to fortify its relevant analog circuits that can be affected by the external environment (cables, amps, etc). Some models use HDAMs, usually made up of at least 6 discreet bipolar transistors at their core surrounded by a couple more of opamps for error correction , for each channel. Other lesser models use only cheaper opamps.

Q: what difference in sound did it make?
A: it would make the relevant analog circuitry, that could often define the sonic quality, less prone to be affected by external connections.
My fix to the 4520 made the sound, or at least, the sound signature attributable to the 4520, much cleaner than I hoped to achieve with the fix.

Q: also could this have some bearing on the fact that this unit seems to need its microprocessor reset occasionally?
A: I do not think so.
The microprocessor works in the digital circuitry while severe "capacitive loading" happens in the analog circuitry of the 4520.

Regards,

Last edited by doognam; Today at 04:23 PM. Reason: Add answer to which marantz models
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post #12302 of 12314 Old Today, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
More problems in my Denon 4520CI saga.


Now I have intermittent times when my Denon 4520CI just completely loses video output over HDMI 1. Sometimes a power cycle fixes it, last night, and one other time I couldn't get it to come on no matter what I did, so I just left it unplugged overnight and it started working again normally the next day.


I'm requesting that Denon actually replace the unit completely with a different model at this point. In my nine months of ownership of this unit - it has actually been out of my possession for 6 months at the shop. I have had a legitimately working unit for about one moth of that nine.


I don't know if they will help me, but I'm going to file a complaint with the better business bureau if they don't acknowledge the problem and try a little harder to make it right then sending me replacement refurb units that also don't work and then shorting my warranty to 1 year from the original 3 year because I now have a refurb unit with a different serial number.




I opened up yet another problem ticket with this information.


4 days - no response. Their customer service was open at least two of those days in full. (not sure if they were open yesterday - Memorial Day) but they were open Saturday and Today.

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post #12303 of 12314 Old Today, 04:31 PM
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4 days - no response. Their customer service was open at least two of those days in full. (not sure if they were open yesterday - Memorial Day) but they were open Saturday and Today.
Is the warranty department same type of customer service that may deal with the public on Saturdays? That sounds odd unless sales are involved....
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post #12304 of 12314 Old Today, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
4 days - no response. Their customer service was open at least two of those days in full. (not sure if they were open yesterday - Memorial Day) but they were open Saturday and Today.
Don't wait on them calling you back. You have to keep them on their toes.

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post #12305 of 12314 Old Today, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
So you're talking about the electronics box(es) in the room being affected by placement without regard to speakers or is that example rather because most am radios have a built-in speaker?

Sure would be nice if you were clearer about what you allude to as to mods and inherent issues in the 4520 and some info on your credentials....
Q: So you're talking about the electronics box(es) in the room being affected by placement without regard to speakers or is that example rather because most am radios have a built-in speaker?
A: NO. Disregard the previous example if that is the way you relate it to its preceding sentence.
What I am talking about is that everyone's listening set-up and environment, in its entirety, could affect the sound that is perceived in that set-up.
It follows therefore that the fixes to 4520 could be sonically perceived differently in each unique set-up.
But regardless, I would imagine that the results would be "positive".
How positive will be the improvements in your case: Look at what you have. How good are your speakers, how good are your power amps, how effective are your room treatments, etc.
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post #12306 of 12314 Old Today, 05:14 PM
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the black denon mic that came with it has ACM1HB written on it.
Hi Joncat84, you are good to run auto setup with that mic. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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post #12307 of 12314 Old Today, 05:15 PM
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To everyone wanting my credentials, please be advised that I am not applying to become anyone's legal guardian.

If you need specific help with my technical posts, please ask politely and it I will endeavour to respond in kind.


Alternatively, you can consult anyone that you know and trust more than someone you do not know like myself.
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post #12308 of 12314 Old Today, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by doognam View Post
Q: So you're talking about the electronics box(es) in the room being affected by placement without regard to speakers or is that example rather because most am radios have a built-in speaker?
A: NO. Disregard the previous example if that is the way you relate it to its preceding sentence.
What I am talking about is that everyone's listening set-up and environment, in its entirety, could affect the sound that is perceived in that set-up.
It follows therefore that the fixes to 4520 could be sonically perceived differently in each unique set-up.
But regardless, I would imagine that the results would be "positive".
How positive will be the improvements in your case: Look at what you have. How good are your speakers, how good are your power amps, how effective are your room treatments, etc.
Speaker placement can indeed affect the perceived sound quality as does the room itself, but your sentence made it sound as if the box placement was key as if it were subject to emf or something (thought after I posted maybe you meant reception quality with the am radio thing).

Still in the dark as to what your tweak was...or how it was done. PM me?
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post #12309 of 12314 Old Today, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Squirrel! View Post
Don't wait on them calling you back. You have to keep them on their toes.
Absolutely agree - get the name of the person managing your request - if no satisfactory resolution, escalate the request - ask to speak with a manager, supervisor, etc. - whatever they call the next rung up the ladder of the managerial hierarchy - get their name, phone # and/or email and establish time frames, i.e. they will get back to you in x hours, days, etc - and monitor these time frames and call, email the contact person as often as it takes to keep them on track. The "squeaky wheel gets attention" is part of any customer service organization - you have to provide the squeaks, otherwise your request will fade into obscurity.
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post #12310 of 12314 Old Today, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
..
Still in the dark as to what your tweak was...or how it was done. PM me?
There a few tweaks that I put into mine but the one single tweak that gave the most mileage is the removal of that severe capacitive loading due to the misplacement of the 470pf capacitors.
I suggest you start with that.

Just remove the 470pf capacitors. Those belong in the input circuitry of external amps - that is why I described their inclusion in the 4520 preouts as back-to-front. Resoldering those capacitors after the 220Ohms resistors would be superfluous. The 4520s do not need them there, neither do most decent external amps as they have their own.

But remember, do it at your own risk.
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post #12311 of 12314 Old Today, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
Hi Warren,

Q: how did you discover this
A: I actively looked for technical reasons why the 4520 sounded that way it did. So I acquired the model's technical manual.

Q: also what Marantz model were you using for comparison?
A: Most Marantz models use buffers to fortify its relevant analog circuits that can be affected by the external environment (cables, amps, etc). Some models use HDAMs, usually made up of at least 6 discreet bipolar transistors at their core surrounded by a couple more of opamps for error correction , for each channel. Other lesser models use only cheaper opamps.

Q: what difference in sound did it make?
A: it would make the relevant analog circuitry, that could often define the sonic quality, less prone to be affected by external connections.
My fix to the 4520 made the sound, or at least, the sound signature attributable to the 4520, much cleaner than I hoped to achieve with the fix.

Q: also could this have some bearing on the fact that this unit seems to need its microprocessor reset occasionally?
A: I do not think so.
The microprocessor works in the digital circuitry while severe "capacitive loading" happens in the analog circuitry of the 4520.

Regards,
a few questions

were you not satisfied with the sound of the 4520?

you sounded like you had a Marantz model in mind when you did a comparison...but you didnt state what it was?
I have a 4520 and a Marantz 8801 in my main listening area

something tell me in a double blind test I would not be able to tell the two apart( with the 4520 run asa preamp)

what do you mean by the " sound signature" of the 4520?

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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post #12312 of 12314 Old Today, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
a few questions

were you not satisfied with the sound of the 4520?

you sounded like you had a Marantz model in mind when you did a comparison...but you didnt state what it was?
I have a 4520 and a Marantz 8801 in my main listening area

something tell me in a double blind test I would not be able to tell the two apart( with the 4520 run asa preamp)

what do you mean by the " sound signature" of the 4520?

Warren
IMO, the perception of sound is very complex.
Some inherently know sound signatures, some appear to struggle with the concept.
Some say all amps sound they same to them as long as their THD is below a certain threshold. I am still baffled as to why my amplifiers sound differently even if I make them measure exactly the same way electronically.
Tiny distortions, even from commercial digital radio broadcasts that should have been cleared by professional sound technicians give me headache so I have to find other and hopefully better audio feeds if I really want to watch/listen to the program.


Q: something tell me in a double blind test I would not be able to tell the two apart( with the 4520 run asa preamp)
A: Some cannot tell the differences between siblings.
Provided that your 8801 does not have the same fault as the 4520, your amps and speakers are decent enough then I suggest;
1. you get 6 people with a more acute perception of how a good live sound system should be; eg, a pianist, a composer, a singer, etc
2. As music can be very complex, let them bring their own test pieces and acclimatise them SIGHTED how their test pieces sound in each system (4520 and 8801) until they claim to be able to identify the differences.
3. Finally, do your double blind.

Why the need for step 2: because it will be easier to pick things once one has identified the targets' signatures. Do the double blind only after the subject knows precisely what to hear for. Otherwise, it would be like asking them to identify which herd a random cow came from.

I imagine that the subjects would be able to pick correctly more than statistically required.
My wife picks it correctly 100% of the time and she cannot tell the difference between a preamp and a power amplifier.

Last edited by doognam; Today at 07:23 PM. Reason: add my own blind tests with my wife
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post #12313 of 12314 Old Today, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
IMO, the perception of sound is very complex.
Some inherently know sound signatures, some appear to struggle with the concept.
Some say all amps sound they same to them as long as their THD is below a certain threshold. I am still baffled as to why my amplifiers sound differently even if I make them measure exactly the same way electronically.
Tiny distortions, even from commercial digital radio broadcasts that should have been cleared by professional sound technicians give me headache so I have to find other and hopefully better audio feeds if I really want to watch/listen to the program.


Q: something tell me in a double blind test I would not be able to tell the two apart( with the 4520 run asa preamp)
A: Some cannot tell the differences between siblings.
Provided that your 8801 does not have the same fault as the 4520, your amps and speakers are decent enough then I suggest;
1. you get 6 people with a more acute perception of how a good live sound system should be; eg, a pianist, a composer, a singer, etc
2. As music can be very complex, let them bring their own test pieces and acclimatise them SIGHTED how their test pieces sound in each system (4520 and 8801) until they claim to be able to identify the differences.
3. Finally, do your double blind.

Why the need for step 2: because it will be easier to pick things once one has identified the targets' signatures. Do the double blind only after the subject knows precisely what to hear for. Otherwise, it would be like identifying a cow.
you had mentioned that a Marantz product( or products) dont have the same fault as the 4520

what Marantz model was in question?

I dont agree completely with your points on the double blind
while your steps certainly can't hurt
I hear time and time again here in AVS how a piece has a certain definite sonic signature that is definable by the person posting

IF that is the case...then that sonic signature should be easily determined in a double blind test

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC77 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #12314 of 12314 Old Today, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
you had mentioned that a Marantz product( or products) dont have the same fault as the 4520

what Marantz model was in question?

I dont agree completely with your points on the double blind
while your steps certainly can't hurt
I hear time and time again here in AVS how a piece has a certain definite sonic signature that is definable by the person posting

IF that is the case...then that sonic signature should be easily determined in a double blind test

Warren
Like I said, IMO, the perception of sound is very complex and beyond my expertise. I cannot make definitive conclusions as to how each unique individual perceives sound or sonic signatures.

Double-blind tests, of course, do it but make sure that your set-up is valid that takes into consideration that each subject might perceive sonics differently from each other - so the need for step 2.
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