The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 412 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12331 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
IMO, the perception of sound is very complex.
Again, you are moving the goalposts. I am not interested in the perception of sound right now. I am interested in the objective reality of the result of your suggested modification - so what is it? What evidence do you have that removing components from the 4520 makes an audible or measurable difference?

I am sure you can see that nobody is going to open up their 4520 and start desoldering components unless there is some clear, measured evidence that an audible difference will result?
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post #12332 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
Like I said, IMO, the perception of sound is very complex and beyond my expertise. I cannot make definitive conclusions as to how each unique individual perceives sound or sonic signatures.
True - but what we need to see here are the measured results after modification. You did make measurements I assume, given that you are clearly of scientific mind and training? How did the output of the unit change after you made the mods?
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post #12333 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post
I thought it might be something like that. Unfortunately, that moves a bit outside my depth. Any advice on a trigger outlet with a 1/8" trigger designed for home theater? I wish Denon still had the 120v plugs on the back, it'd be a non-issue!

I use a IPOWER AC 6+ triggered from my 3808 (4520 arrives today). Don't know if this is a solution for you, but they are still available on eBay:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NILES-IPOWER...item3cf9559933


HTH


Roger

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post #12334 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 10:22 AM
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post #12335 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 01:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
..
Again, the only reason I asked is because you used the Marantz brand as a comparable..but you never gave examples of which model you were using for your information

Warren
Thank you, @turnne1 , for the opportunity to state my reasons why.

I did not specify the model simply because all Marantz models in the same category as to $Price and/or functionality use buffers. The 8801 model definitely uses HDAMs, the lower models use either HDAMs and/or opamps. In any case, all Marantz models that I subjectively thought worthy of consideration use buffers.

From memory, which I admit is no longer as sharp as before, I think that all the models that I referred to above (except for the 8801 which I no longer have detailed schematics of) go as far as using buffers at both ends, front and back, of the volume control circuitry to ensure that the analog signals do not get corrupted both inside the unit and up to the point the analog signals arrive for amplification in the external amplifiers.

Perhaps, it is safe to conclude that using buffers is in Marantz's DNA.

Regards,
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post #12336 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JChin View Post
Hi Joncat84, you are good to run auto setup with that mic. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
thank you for your help!
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post #12337 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 02:35 PM
 
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Before the goalposts get shifted too far, please let me just try to put them back.

WARNING! This post may require deeper technical knowledge than the norm in this forum.

Unlike the Marantz models, the Denon 4520 does not buffer the analog signals.
In the process of retrofitting buffers into the 4520 I discovered THIS: Parts of the PreOut circuits are back-to-front.

Images and some texts attached.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
What the technical info means in layman's terms is that the 4520 is already struggling with the equivalent of 100 meters of cable even when no cable is connected yet (based on 4.7pf per meter of cable guesstimate).

Not much can be done really except ... get it fixed, live with it, or ...

It is what it is.

Please consult your own experts if you need more details than I have supplied already.
Alternatively, you can politely request for clarifications and I will try to address them.

Thanks,
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post #12338 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 02:52 PM
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I am sooo not going there again.
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post #12339 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 03:16 PM
 
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As to how a herder can home in on the cows "moo" sonic signature to pick it during a double-blind test:

Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Only if said cow had 470pF caps hooked up to each udder.. ;-p


I for one won't be de soldering anything from my 4520.

I haven't hooked up my external amp yet but when I do, I'll listen for any abnormalities then.
I feel very flattered! Thanks @laserjock II for the compliment regardless of how you intended it.

I like the very humorous but constructive spirit that you are taking it.

I really appreciate your post. I hope I see more very intelligent posts like this.

Regards and thanks again,
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post #12340 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
Again, you are moving the goalposts. I am not interested in the perception of sound right now. I am interested in the objective reality of the result of your suggested modification - so what is it? What evidence do you have that removing components from the 4520 makes an audible or measurable difference?

I am sure you can see that nobody is going to open up their 4520 and start desoldering components unless there is some clear, measured evidence that an audible difference will result?
I think the word is subjective in this context

whenever people start using words/terms like "soundstage" and "sonic signature" those are standard bearers for subjectivity and opinion

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC77 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #12341 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
Unlike the Marantz models, the Denon 4520 does not buffer the analog signals.
,
and here we go with this again....
what specific Marantz models?...or do all of them have said difference?

as I said before...I have the denon 4520 and the Marantz 8801

If I were a betting man...I think I would hard pressed to tell the difference in a double blind in the 8801 and the 4520( with the 4520 used as a preamp)

In fact..if I still had my old Onkyo 5509..I would bet I would fail a double blind discerning the three from each other with Audyssey engaged

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
Rm 3 Samsung 51E8000 Pioneer SC77 Kef 2005.2 speaker system
Rm 4 Panasonic 50ST50 Onkyo 5009 Mirage Omni sat speaker system
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post #12342 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
True - but what we need to see here are the measured results after modification. You did make measurements I assume, given that you are clearly of scientific mind and training? How did the output of the unit change after you made the mods?
I think he has already described what he noted as a subjective improvement in sound

I do agree with him that the perception of sound is very complex
and that has about everything to do( IMO) with the subjectivity of the person listening vs the unit they are listening to

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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post #12343 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
4 days - no response. Their customer service was open at least two of those days in full. (not sure if they were open yesterday - Memorial Day) but they were open Saturday and Today.
let me just say you are a nicer person than I am....

did you receive a response as of yet?
In most cases your credit card will give you a 6 month protection on purchases where "in good faith" you have tried to make it right and they have not cooperated
I would talk to a manager and document you are going the charge back route....then have the chargeback done

amazingly...they "seem " to call you back fairly quickly then
Hopefully you paid sub $1000 for a new in box unit
I have had multiple units replaced by both Denon and Onkyo
In fact the 4520 was in the shop in the first 30 days of ownership...if I had not gotten a "deal" on the unit they would have replaced mine with another new unit for a failure that quickly

Warren

Rm 1 Samsung 64F8500 Marantz 8801 prepro Sherbourn 5/1500A amp B&W CM10s..CM2 center...CM5's.rears
Rm 2 LG 47LE8500 Denon 4520 Celestion 305 speaker system
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post #12344 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 07:53 PM
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Nope. Nada. No update in the support ticket. No phone call. No attempt at communication. I expect my ticket will just be closed like the last one.

I did buy with a credit card, but how does a charge back work through Amazon? It isn't a Amazon problem. It's a Denon problem.

My local authorized repair shop owner said he'd go to bat for me if they don't follow up with me this time, and contact his District rep.
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post #12345 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
WARNING! This post requires deeper technical knowledge.
The info could be interesting for those using external amps.

Unlike the Marantz models, the Denon 4520 does not buffer the analog signals.
In the process of retrofitting buffers into the 4520 I discovered THIS: Parts of the PreOut circuits are back-to-front.

I waited until the model's end-of-life before disclosing this info just to avoid being flamed. I hope the info can be put to good use.
You don't really know why the components are there. Your statements are completely speculative and baseless. They're probably for ESD protection or maybe they're needed for output stability and the resistor is to limit current draw if you were to short the output. You presume the designers had no idea what they were doing when they designed the circuit. That's probably not true.

Last edited by Stereodude; 05-27-2015 at 08:11 PM.
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post #12346 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
It could just mean that no one has the same issue. There are Denon threads for similar product lines you could try. You did do a full microprocessor reset after experiencing this issue?

I have since re set the microprocessor but still have the same problem, anything else you can think that will help me?


The problem for those that didn't see my post.


Ive found that we have very Unreliable IP Control. Sometimes when I turn everything on the 4520 will come on, sometimes not. When I shutdown everything, sometimes the 4520 will shutdown, sometimes not.....
Its all very hit and miss!

Murray Thompson
X Owner RapalloAV
CinemascopE Home Cinema Build & 2014 rebuild

Last edited by RapalloAV; 05-27-2015 at 09:05 PM.
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post #12347 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
I have since doe the microprocessor but still have the same problem, anything else you can think that will help me?
I'm not sure but think @jdsmoothie has recommended 5 such resets consecutively in some cases....maybe he will comment.
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post #12348 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I'm not sure but think @jdsmoothie has recommended 5 such resets consecutively in some cases....maybe he will comment.
OMG if that's the case there must be some major problem surely!
So it looks like Im not the only one then to have this issue?

Murray Thompson
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post #12349 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
OMG if that's the case there must be some major problem surely!
So it looks like Im not the only one then to have this issue?
I can't say your particular issue has been experienced by others but you could go through this thread and see. You might want to go into detail about what you're doing on the IP control thing so people can check your setup/procedure out....
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post #12350 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
As to how a herder can home in on the cows "moo" sonic signature to pick it during a double-blind test:


I feel very flattered! Thanks @laserjock II for the compliment regardless of how you intended it.

I like the very humorous but constructive spirit that you are taking it.

I really appreciate your post. I hope I see more very intelligent posts like this.

Regards and thanks again,
Did you find a way around the sub output clipping that you discovered?

I haven't heard any problems with mine but maybe I just haven't played it loud enough.
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post #12351 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I can't say your particular issue has been experienced by others but you could go through this thread and see. You might want to go into detail about what you're doing on the IP control thing so people can check your setup/procedure out....

See if this helps?


Denon is hardwired to lan and set to a static ip address and the control system establishes a TCP/IP connection over IP and maintains the connection. IP commands are then sent via wifi from the iPad to the AVR.

Murray Thompson
X Owner RapalloAV
CinemascopE Home Cinema Build & 2014 rebuild
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post #12352 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 09:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
You don't really know why the components are there. Your statements are completely speculative and baseless. They're probably for ESD protection or maybe they're needed for output stability and the resistor is to limit current draw if you were to short the output. You presume the designers had no idea what they were doing when they designed the circuit. That's probably not true.
True, I really do not know why they are there.

But I surely know what effect those would have on the volume control amp circuitry. It is very well-known among amplifier builders and designers. The undesirable effect is called "capacitive loading".

An expert's opinion as to the undesirability of the effect was attached in my original post.

Your point about ESD is valid. It is true that the 470pF can help protect the volume control circuitry IF THEY WERE CONNECTED WHERE THEY SHOULD BE. That is, after the 220Ohms resistors. In that place, the 220Ohm resistors would have had also insulated the volume control amps from the negative effects of severe capacitive loading due to the 470pF capacitors.

Again with regards to ESD:
I tried to get a datasheet for the component used for the electronic volume control used in 4520s but failed. It is well-known, again among electronics builders and designers, that only those components using fet technology are prone to ESD failure - not those using bipolar technology. If they were made of fets, I will think that the 470pF are placed there for this purpose.

As to " limiting current draw "
Notice that the capacitors are connected to the signal and ground traces. The capacitors will short the outputs to ground at higher frequencies without the benefit of any current limiting resistors. That is another negative side effect of them being placed in the wrong part of the circuit.

Apologies
I am a bit tired now, so please allow me to stop with my explanations here. I have been teaching for a while and wish to rest from that activity today if I may.

I really do not know why they are there, but I speculate.
Based on the collective experiences of people in the industry that I have had the opportunity to observe and/or share with, these faults typically result not from the design but from the execution/manufacture. The board where the faults are is called the "input board". The board layout team/staff may have had simply cut and pasted an input circuitry because they looked very similar then laid them all out nicely like peas in a pod for the external connectors taking no notice that some are for output, not all are for input. There they remained unnoticed until now.

But that is just speculation.

Next Steps
Please assist by finding out from Denon why they put those there.

Thanks,

Last edited by doognam; 05-27-2015 at 11:57 PM. Reason: address current limiting suggestion
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post #12353 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 10:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Did you find a way around the sub output clipping that you discovered?

I haven't heard any problems with mine but maybe I just haven't played it loud enough.
Oh NO it wasn't me who discovered that.


But the way I remember it described was that the sub channels' PREOUTS clip when the 4520 is fed with 0db full scale input.

The sad thing about this issue, if proven to be true for all unmodified 4520s, is that with some cinematic materials/progams, even amps with large enough headroom will output distortion simply because they would have been fed distorted signals from the 4520s.

It was suggested that the cause could have been related to issues with "rail voltages".
The relevant data that I can contribute is that of the actual rail voltages used in the 4520 pre's which are +-7v (or 14v magnitude).

The guy appears to know what he was talking about so I leave it to him to work it out.

If insufficient rail voltages are found to be the culprit then again there is not much anyone can do.
Using +-15v (30v magnitude) rail voltages was one of the first tweaks I did to mine so I may never have to worry about that issue.

Last edited by doognam; 05-27-2015 at 11:06 PM. Reason: expound on impact of clipping at the preouts
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post #12354 of 12648 Old 05-27-2015, 11:18 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RapalloAV View Post
See if this helps?


Denon is hardwired to lan and set to a static ip address and the control system establishes a TCP/IP connection over IP and maintains the connection. IP commands are then sent via wifi from the iPad to the AVR.
I thought so, too.

But I remember noticing that my unit's IP address changes. I have, since checked as to why and I noticed that the configuration (avr's network setting) specifies "dynamic" assignment or an acronym to that effect.
Have you checked the network settings of your AVR?

Just sharing my 2cents worth. I am sorry if this has been suggested before.
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post #12355 of 12648 Old 05-28-2015, 03:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doognam View Post
Your point about ESD is valid. It is true that the 470pF can help protect the volume control circuitry IF THEY WERE CONNECTED WHERE THEY SHOULD BE. That is, after the 220Ohms resistors. In that place, the 220Ohm resistors would have had also insulated the volume control amps from the negative effects of severe capacitive loading due to the 470pF capacitors.

Again with regards to ESD:
I tried to get a datasheet for the component used for the electronic volume control used in 4520s but failed. It is well-known, again among electronics builders and designers, that only those components using fet technology are prone to ESD failure - not those using bipolar technology. If they were made of fets, I will think that the 470pF are placed there for this purpose.

As to " limiting current draw "
Notice that the capacitors are connected to the signal and ground traces. The capacitors will short the outputs to ground at higher frequencies without the benefit of any current limiting resistors. That is another negative side effect of them being placed in the wrong part of the circuit.
ESD would come in the output as if it were an input. The ESD wouldn't come from the volume control chip. So the capacitor is not on the wrong side of the resistor. If it were a low pass filter on the output the capacitor would be on the wrong side of the resistor.

Further you've just said it all. You don't have the datasheet for the volume control. As such you can't make any definitive statement as to whether they're supposed to be there, or if they're placed wrong. It's not like they're using a 2nd order sallen-key op amp filter and the use is obvious.
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post #12356 of 12648 Old 05-28-2015, 05:41 AM
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Reset

How do you do a full (microprocessor) reset?
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post #12357 of 12648 Old 05-28-2015, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talmadge View Post
How do you do a full (microprocessor) reset?



Here you go!

Courtesy of jdsmoothie's post #3 of this thread.


Various resets for the 4520CI: press/hold the following buttons on the front panel while powering on the AVR

Full/Deep Reset - resets the network card (NIC) and the microprocessor: UP/DOWN arrow buttons

Network Reset - resets the network card (NIC) only: DIMMER/INFO

Microprocessor Reset - resets the microprocessor only: INFO/BACK


...Glenn
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post #12358 of 12648 Old 05-28-2015, 05:58 AM
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Thanks!
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Anyone have an idea of what would cause my 4520 to stop turning on the amps? Everything else works but it doesn't click on the amps any longer for some reason. Almost like a relay or something went out.

I'm trying to decide if its worth fixing or just trying to sell it and let someone else fix it. I already replaced it so I'm not in a hurry but just don't live near a repair facility according to Denon.

Thanks for any tips.
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post #12360 of 12648 Old 05-28-2015, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txbonds View Post
Anyone have an idea of what would cause my 4520 to stop turning on the amps? Everything else works but it doesn't click on the amps any longer for some reason. Almost like a relay or something went out.

I'm trying to decide if its worth fixing or just trying to sell it and let someone else fix it. I already replaced it so I'm not in a hurry but just don't live near a repair facility according to Denon.

Thanks for any tips.

Is it still under warranty ? If so, I'd send it in.

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