The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 413 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12361 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by txbonds View Post
No, it isn't unfortunately. I bought it as a refurbished unit from accessories4less a few years ago. Refurbished only comes with a 1 year warranty. Has worked flawlessly up until this and still works for everything but sound as the amps are not turning on. Since it wasn't under warranty and I don't have a Denon service center anywhere near me, I just picked up a lower end model locally and have been using it for the past few months. It seems to be serving our needs just fine as the 4520 was way more than I actually needed.

Anyway, thought someone might pop up with a quick "oh yeah, that is a common issue" type response that gave me some direction. If it is a cheap fix, common issue type thing, I might would just sell it as is, but didn't know.
If under two years check to see if the credit card you used extended the 1 year warranty by another year....
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post #12362 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
If under two years check to see if the credit card you used extended the 1 year warranty by another year....
Unfortunately another strike out as I used paypal to pay.
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post #12363 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 01:04 PM
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Unfortunately another strike out as I used paypal to pay.
Why would you do that?
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post #12364 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txbonds View Post
Anyone have an idea of what would cause my 4520 to stop turning on the amps? Everything else works but it doesn't click on the amps any longer for some reason. Almost like a relay or something went out.

I'm trying to decide if its worth fixing or just trying to sell it and let someone else fix it. I already replaced it so I'm not in a hurry but just don't live near a repair facility according to Denon.

Thanks for any tips.
Amps as in external or the one's inside the receiver?
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post #12365 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Amps as in external or the one's inside the receiver?
The ones inside the unit

It normally makes a click sound when you first turn on and then a few seconds later another click as the amps turn on and sound starts coming out. It's that second click that isn't happening and is why I'm saying it seems like a relay is out. I really have no clue but I've tried the reset procedures and it makes no difference. All other features seem to be working though including the video and what not.
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post #12366 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txbonds View Post
No, it isn't unfortunately. I bought it as a refurbished unit from accessories4less a few years ago. Refurbished only comes with a 1 year warranty. Has worked flawlessly up until this and still works for everything but sound as the amps are not turning on. Since it wasn't under warranty and I don't have a Denon service center anywhere near me, I just picked up a lower end model locally and have been using it for the past few months. It seems to be serving our needs just fine as the 4520 was way more than I actually needed.

Anyway, thought someone might pop up with a quick "oh yeah, that is a common issue" type response that gave me some direction. If it is a cheap fix, common issue type thing, I might would just sell it as is, but didn't know.
I supposed if just the amps aren't coming on, it would make a decent pre / pro !

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post #12367 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig Peer View Post
I supposed if just the amps aren't coming on, it would make a decent pre / pro !
Possibly. I don't have any external amps to test with though. I bought a lower level Onkyo TX-NR636 to replace it. Hooked it up to the exact same cables (except power cord) and it works just fine and all functions are normal, so I don't think it was anything wiring related.

I don't know anything about electronic boards like these have in them but would guess it might be an easy fix but who knows. Is there any easy way to double check the pre-outs and any idea what it would be worth at this point without me paying to get it fixed vs if I did get it fixed? I know they aren't going for anything near the $1499 I paid for it last January 7th (looked it up on their website).

Thanks guys.
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post #12368 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txbonds View Post
Possibly. I don't have any external amps to test with though. I bought a lower level Onkyo TX-NR636 to replace it. Hooked it up to the exact same cables (except power cord) and it works just fine and all functions are normal, so I don't think it was anything wiring related.

I don't know anything about electronic boards like these have in them but would guess it might be an easy fix but who knows. Is there any easy way to double check the pre-outs and any idea what it would be worth at this point without me paying to get it fixed vs if I did get it fixed? I know they aren't going for anything near the $1499 I paid for it last January 7th (looked it up on their website).

Thanks guys.
Sure you do, you have another receiver. Take an rca cable or two and hook a pre-out on the 4520 up to an analog input on the 636 to see if it works (not really an ideal way to use but will tell you if the preouts are still functional).
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post #12369 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by txbonds View Post
Possibly. I don't have any external amps to test with though. I bought a lower level Onkyo TX-NR636 to replace it. Hooked it up to the exact same cables (except power cord) and it works just fine and all functions are normal, so I don't think it was anything wiring related.

I don't know anything about electronic boards like these have in them but would guess it might be an easy fix but who knows. Is there any easy way to double check the pre-outs and any idea what it would be worth at this point without me paying to get it fixed vs if I did get it fixed? I know they aren't going for anything near the $1499 I paid for it last January 7th (looked it up on their website).

Thanks guys.
You can easily check eBay for pricing of used 4520's in working order (take a look at completed auctions - you'll need to sign in to do that). I would guess that one without any problems and in very good cosmetic condition would go for around $800, give or take. One with the amps not working would sell for a LOT less as that's a core function of the AVR. You're going to take a huge beating selling it with problems because a potential buyer isn't going to know if it's as simple as a blown fuse or if there's a major issue and isn't going to be willing to pay much because of that. If I were you, I would send it off to an authorized Denon repair center, get it fixed (or at least get an estimate), and then decide whether to keep it or sell it.
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post #12370 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by CatTerror View Post
But you say there are filters in the preouts of 4520's. Is that what you mean?
Maybe. We're not sure what the R's and C's on the output are for. I've suggested they could be a low pass filter for ESD. However from the perspective of the output from the volume chip they're not a low pass filter.
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post #12371 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 07:32 PM
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It could be a current limiting resistor, or part of a RC low pass filter if there's a resistor before the capacitor between ground and the signal. Perhaps both.
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post #12372 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 07:55 PM
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Again, you are moving the goalposts. I am not interested in the perception of sound right now. I am interested in the objective reality of the result of your suggested modification - so what is it? What evidence do you have that removing components from the 4520 makes an audible or measurable difference?

I am sure you can see that nobody is going to open up their 4520 and start desoldering components unless there is some clear, measured evidence that an audible difference will result?
Fortunately or unfortunately I did not have to open the TWO new units I had to heart how hideous they sounded. My evidence was my offended ears. Simply the worst avr I ever heard, period, without any doubt. I'm amazed anyone could enjoy this lack luster bomb from Denon. A cheap Onkyo would be a major improvement.
I 'm just assuming since this guy posting his mod was repeatedly attacked, from what I read, and who knows whats been removed as now this sight is evidently beholding to manufacturers. So that's my opinion as an owner/former, do I need a receipt to post? I got one, even two. Do I need a science degree for an opinion that don't tow the line ? Or will the sanitization be automatic?
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post #12373 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by txbonds View Post
Possibly. I don't have any external amps to test with though. I bought a lower level Onkyo TX-NR636 to replace it. Hooked it up to the exact same cables (except power cord) and it works just fine and all functions are normal, so I don't think it was anything wiring related.

I don't know anything about electronic boards like these have in them but would guess it might be an easy fix but who knows. Is there any easy way to double check the pre-outs and any idea what it would be worth at this point without me paying to get it fixed vs if I did get it fixed? I know they aren't going for anything near the $1499 I paid for it last January 7th (looked it up on their website).

Thanks guys.
Call Denon and find out where your closest repair shop is. I had one of the surround channels short out (banana plugs came out) and the amp would power on and then click off. The diagnostic fee was only $40. If they fixed it, the $40 went to the repair. I ended up fixing mine because I really like the amp but it will definitely be worth $40 because it may be an easy fix. If you can't find a shop that does that, PM me and I can get the shop here in San Antonio to work with you but this would add shipping costs.

HTH,

Chris

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post #12374 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post
Fortunately or unfortunately I did not have to open the TWO new units I had to heart how hideous they sounded. My evidence was my offended ears. Simply the worst avr I ever heard, period, without any doubt. I'm amazed anyone could enjoy this lack luster bomb from Denon. A cheap Onkyo would be a major improvement.
I 'm just assuming since this guy posting his mod was repeatedly attacked, from what I read, and who knows whats been removed as now this sight is evidently beholding to manufacturers. So that's my opinion as an owner/former, do I need a receipt to post? I got one, even two. Do I need a science degree for an opinion that don't tow the line ? Or will the sanitization be automatic?
Hyperbole bombs like this are always amusing. You're entitled to have and express your opinion of the receiver, but your condescension is uncalled for, and your charges of bias and persecution have no basis. Plenty of posters have criticized this receiver and the company who made it, but others do not share their experiences or opinions. Is asking someone who claims a mod improved the performance of the receiver for scientific evidence of that improvement an attack?
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post #12375 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by csnow View Post
Call Denon and find out where your closest repair shop is. I had one of the surround channels short out (banana plugs came out) and the amp would power on and then click off. The diagnostic fee was only $40. If they fixed it, the $40 went to the repair. I ended up fixing mine because I really like the amp but it will definitely be worth $40 because it may be an easy fix. If you can't find a shop that does that, PM me and I can get the shop here in San Antonio to work with you but this would add shipping costs.

HTH,

Chris
There's a repair shop in SA? Good to know. I thought the closest one is in Austin.

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post #12376 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post
Fortunately or unfortunately I did not have to open the TWO new units I had to heart how hideous they sounded. My evidence was my offended ears. Simply the worst avr I ever heard, period, without any doubt. I'm amazed anyone could enjoy this lack luster bomb from Denon. A cheap Onkyo would be a major improvement.
I 'm just assuming since this guy posting his mod was repeatedly attacked, from what I read, and who knows whats been removed as now this sight is evidently beholding to manufacturers. So that's my opinion as an owner/former, do I need a receipt to post? I got one, even two. Do I need a science degree for an opinion that don't tow the line ? Or will the sanitization be automatic?
Just curious, what receiver do you like? I actually love the Denon sound. I used to love Yamaha but then it sounded too bright. The Denon is laid back to me but others may find it dull. Sound is so perceptual to each individual. It doesnt mean the Denon is bad it just means it is bad to you. But to your point, if it is bad to you I wouldnt expect praises either.

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post #12377 of 12388 Old Yesterday, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by paligap View Post
There's a repair shop in SA? Good to know. I thought the closest one is in Austin.
According to Denon, that is true. Bjorn's Audio-Video Home Theater is listed as a "internal" repair facility only or whatever term Denon calls it. Basically, it means they will only work on units that were sold by them. I called them up and they accepted and repaired my unit. I guess a bad economy has some benefits - they need money and aren't going to turn any customer away.
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post #12378 of 12388 Old Today, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post
Fortunately or unfortunately I did not have to open the TWO new units I had to heart how hideous they sounded. My evidence was my offended ears. Simply the worst avr I ever heard, period, without any doubt. I'm amazed anyone could enjoy this lack luster bomb from Denon. A cheap Onkyo would be a major improvement.
I'm sorry you had such poor experiences from the 4520. It isn’t the experience that most people have had, so it's possible, I guess, that you received two faulty units in a row, which is bad luck and pretty unusual.

Quote:
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I 'm just assuming since this guy posting his mod was repeatedly attacked, from what I read,
If he was "attacked" (which I would dispute) it was because he persistently refused to answer reasonable questions about the proposed modifications, not because he proposed modifying the unit, as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo C View Post
and who knows whats been removed as now this sight is evidently beholding to manufacturers. So that's my opinion as an owner/former, do I need a receipt to post? I got one, even two. Do I need a science degree for an opinion that don't tow the line ? Or will the sanitization be automatic?
I'm pretty sure that the posts which were removed contained personal attacks on other members, which is a violation of AVS rules. Similarly, where you say he was "attacked", it isn't true. His posts were attacked, for sure, but I cannot recall anyone making any personal attacks on the poster himself.

Everyone will have different opinions about the sound they hear from whatever hardware they are using, in whatever room they are using it. But modern electronics really don't contribute vast differences to the sound one hears (assuming they aren't broken and tone controls. EQ etc are disabled). What contributes the big differences in sound is the room itself, where untreated rooms can exhibit frequency response swings of 20-30dB routinely. That is the real distortion to the sound and that is where the big differences come from, and that is where the attention (and cash) needs to be deployed if one wishes to achieve the very best sound quality possible.
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post #12379 of 12388 Old Today, 03:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CatTerror View Post
I been from a science community of chemists, physicists, etc, from way back so I believe I am qualified to add my 2cents worth.

Asking someone for a scientific evidence is not scientific in itself. The scientific process involves finding out the answers thru experimentation.

Doognam's claims are:

1. Severe capacitive loading due to 470pF. What exactly does he mean?
I searched the internet and found out that he could be right. But that does not mean that he is right because I lack the maths needed to solve them myself. Maybe, it is not important so we go to the bottom line (next claim).

2. Improved 4520 sound after removing the 470pF. This is easy to verify with just a couple of units and decent amplifiers and speakers.

So a simple experiment is required to find out whether or not his claims are true without need to attack anyone.

Does anyone volunteer to perform the needed experiment/s to answer the question or questions that were raised due to @doognam 's mods?

How much is an unmodified 4520 nowadays - maybe all those that are interested to know the answers can chip in - or those selling them to contribute for science and goodwill.
In the scientific communities you have worked in, when someone makes a claim, are they not expected to provide evidence to substantiate the claim? Or do they simply present the claim and then expect others to provide the evidence? If on a project to evaluate the makeup of the moon I say it is made of green cheese, would that be taken on face value without corroborating evidence, or would I simply say it and, when questioned as to how I had come to that conclusion, would I simply say "well it's up to you guys now to find the evidence that I am right or wrong - my work here is done."?

BTW, it is far far from 'easy' to evaluate the sonic differences between one unit and another and most certainly the worst way to do it is the way you describe. Proper blind ABX testing would be needed, and as you will know from your involvement with scientific communities, it is far from trivial to set these up in a way which will ensure valid results.

But listening tests are not needed in this case. The claim was that the introduction of certain components, in a certain place, could lead to (ill defined) audible problems with the Denon 4520. It was claimed that the removal of these components would result in "superior sound". Given that everything audible can be measured, the easiest and most reliable way to verify, or disprove, the claim would be to measure a unit with the components in place, and then to measure it again with the components removed. If the two sets of measurements were identical then there can clearly be no difference in the resulting sound. If the two sets of measurements were different, then one would need to analyse the differences and determine if they would result in audible differentiation between the units. For example, if the differences only existed at >20kHz, then no audible differences would result. However if the differences existed at 5kHz-8kHz, then it is possible, likely even, that audible differences would result.

The above is the kind of scientific rigor that a science forum might demand of members who post controversial and important claims. If no such evidence is forthcoming, then the proper way to proceed is to ignore the claim being made, just as my claim as to the composition of the moon would, rightly, be ignored.
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post #12380 of 12388 Old Today, 05:17 AM
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Am I the only one who is wondering if Doognam and CatTerror are the same poster?

It's a shame what has become of this thread over the past week.
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post #12381 of 12388 Old Today, 05:26 AM
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there was a member removed for multi ID posting: he will not be back so please move on

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle

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post #12382 of 12388 Old Today, 06:09 AM
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Anyone else just enjoying the sound from the 4520?

I like mine and still learning and experimenting with different modes.

Have a DIY sub I bought and a Crown pro amp to drive it.
That's my next update project.
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post #12383 of 12388 Old Today, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Anyone else just enjoying the sound from the 4520?

I like mine and still learning and experimenting with different modes.

Have a DIY sub I bought and a Crown pro amp to drive it.
That's my next update project.
I like the 4520ci over the x5200w that I purchased to replace it. Outside of Atmos suport, the 4520ci is superior in every way to the newer model (my opinion). I also got hoodwinked by Denon marketing. I made an assumption the 5200 was the replacement model for the 4520ci because of the numerical values are inline with each other. Sadly, that error cost me. The 7200 is the replacement model for the 4520ci. Maybe I would have liked that one better.

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post #12384 of 12388 Old Today, 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by csnow View Post
I like the 4520ci over the x5200w that I purchased to replace it. Outside of Atmos suport, the 4520ci is superior in every way to the newer model (my opinion). I also got hoodwinked by Denon marketing. I made an assumption the 5200 was the replacement model for the 4520ci because of the numerical values are inline with each other. Sadly, that error cost me. The 7200 is the replacement model for the 4520ci. Maybe I would have liked that one better.
Did you get rid of the 4520?
Are you doing the new surround sound format now?
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post #12385 of 12388 Old Today, 06:32 AM
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No, I still have it. I am going to sell the x5200w and keep the 4520ci. I wasnt wowed enough by Atmos to continue down that road. Maybe when there is more content but right now I put it in the "kinda neat" category vs "gotta have this" category. Speaking of the 4520, I have to go pick it up from the repair facility today.

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post #12386 of 12388 Unread Today, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by CatTerror View Post
Thanks, @kbarnes701 for asking. I sense that this issue is important to you so I will try my best to keep my answers full but short. I am not very good at that so I apologise in advance if I do not succeed at both.

OK, here it goes;

One can always ask for the evidences/artefacts like frequency sweeps, phase sweeps, etc. But a bigger scientific problem arises because any and all evidence that comes from @doognam still need to be tested for veracity, ad infinitum. No one arrives at a scientific answer this way.

In the specific case of @doog man's claim of him "perceiving improvement/s due to the removal of 470pF":
He has presented a subjective observation which he claimed was the result of an experiment. That is, of removing the 470pF. His observation is his evidence. It needs to be verified.
I disagree. His observation is simply that: an observation. Observations are not evidence and he has presented no evidence to support the claim he made. Therefore, the most sensible course is to ignore his claim/observation until such time as he presents corroborating evidence. Similarly, it is the responsibility of those making claims to provide the evidence to support them, not the responsibility of others. Once his evidence has been presented, then peers can review that evidence and draw conclusions, or indeed present contrary evidence of their own. But the latter does not preclude the presentation of corroborative evidence contemporaneous with the claim being made.

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Originally Posted by CatTerror View Post
I have already mentioned that the method that will definitely arrive at an answer is to verify the evidence by replicating his experiment.
What evidence is there to verify? No evidence has been presented. A claim is not "evidence".

Quote:
Originally Posted by CatTerror View Post
If anyone else can make the same observation after modifying another 4520 then we can scientifically conclude that for at least two people and two 4520s improvements were observed. If on the third iteration, a different result arises - then the reasons for the difference need to be found out thru another round of experiments. That is how science has always done and probably will do in the near future.
Again, I disagree. It is not how scientific progress is made in normal situations. Normally when a claim is made, evidence is provided to support the claim, and then the round of peer reviews, additional experiments, the provision of supporting or contrary evidence etc can begin. In this case all we have is a vague claim: the claim is that removing certain compentents "improves sound quality". That is a subjective statement which is evidentially worthless.
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For the record, my 4520 doesn't need any modifications that I can tell - with 11 Martin Logan Motion series speakers and two SVS cylinder subwoofers, it's producing excellent sound. Interstellar ( among others ) sounded great!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laserjock II View Post
Anyone else just enjoying the sound from the 4520?

I like mine and still learning and experimenting with different modes.

Have a DIY sub I bought and a Crown pro amp to drive it.
That's my next update project.

Yes, I am enjoying my 4520 a great deal and, as a matter of fact, it is the best receiver or pre/pro I have ever owned. I moved from high-end separates on whim to try to determine if separates really are that much better. I found that I liked the 4520 more than my Parasound A21 / A51 & Integra 80.3 setup. I think it is laughable that some here are trying to assert that Denon design / industrial engineers didn't know what they were doing. It would be my belief that Denon has some of the best minds in the world in this area. My bet is that they knew exactly what they were doing and the proof is in the sound. It sounds absolutely great...
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