The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 421 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #12601 of 13580 Old 07-14-2015, 04:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
The thing with DSX is that it creates the FH/FW channels by creating synthesized reflections of the FR/FL main channels -- the goal being to make the front soundstage sound HUGE like you are in a giant concert hall or theater. It operates on FR/FL channels specifically to avoid extracting dialogue to the FH/FW channels -- in fact it doesn't even let you use DSX if there is no center channel present in the speaker config, because then dialogue is guaranteed to be mixed down to the stereo front channels.

The problem is the assumption that dialogue will be in the CC is not always true -- if dialogue pans to the FR/FL channels, then you will get a weird echo effect with "reflections" of the dialogue coming from wide/high positions. That's what aaronwt is referring to. Doesn't happen most of the time but when you hear it, it's really annoying.
Yes this is what is annoying to me when there is dialog in the FL/FR. It will be in an area that is not near the screen with my Front Heights and doesn't sound right to me.

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post #12602 of 13580 Old 07-15-2015, 06:52 AM
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I use DSX wide because, due to room constraints, I am unable to place my mains far enough apart for optimal soundstage. I'm extremely pleased with the results.

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post #12603 of 13580 Old 07-15-2015, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by paligap View Post
I use DSX wide because, due to room constraints, I am unable to place my mains far enough apart for optimal soundstage. I'm extremely pleased with the results.
I think that's when DSX is at its best -- allowing someone to get the sensation of that "huge" theater experience when constraints would otherwise prevent them from getting that expansive soundstage.

Out of curiosity have you tried using DTS Neo:X for the wides instead? If so what were your thoughts?

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post #12604 of 13580 Old 07-16-2015, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post
I think that's when DSX is at its best -- allowing someone to get the sensation of that "huge" theater experience when constraints would otherwise prevent them from getting that expansive soundstage.

Out of curiosity have you tried using DTS Neo:X for the wides instead? If so what were your thoughts?
I actually use DSX Wide for movies and (gasp!) multi-channel music, basically anything that sends a 5.1 or 7.1 signal. I don't think it applies to the 4.0 music I play.

I haven't used DTS Neo:X for wides. I'll give it a try. When I first set up the receiver, I couldn't figure out how to configure the amps to send MC music to my surround rears instead of my surrounds. I think I might have used one of the DSP modes to accomplish that before I ended up going 9.2 and using DSX Wide. That sends the rear signals in MC music to both sets of surrounds, but that's something I can live with.

That's one thing I miss about the 4310 I had before. It would automatically send music to the rears and movies to the surrounds. But then it couldn't do 7.1.

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post #12605 of 13580 Old 07-18-2015, 09:54 AM
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4520 Zones inop

It started 2 weeks ago first lost left channel to zone 2 at pool deck, then lost all channels to all zones, a deep reset cured it last week bur today back to zones inop again, only listen to network and ipod via analogue input, to outside zone 2 ,any ideas, im thinking its ready for the dreadfull send it in for repairs, any ideas would be appreciated
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post #12606 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 02:11 PM
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Do the internally generated test tones in the 4520CI go through Audyssey equalization? When I use a calibrated SPL meter with the internal tones I don't agree with their level setting on some of the channels, especially the sub.
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post #12607 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Do the internally generated test tones in the 4520CI go through Audyssey equalization? When I use a calibrated SPL meter with the internal tones I don't agree with their level setting on some of the channels, especially the sub.
AFAIK, nope.
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post #12608 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by laulau View Post
AFAIK, nope.
Thanks for the reply. That confirmed my hunch.
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post #12609 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 06:49 PM
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So Audyssey does really strange things... I ran a 3 point Audyssey calibration, turned off dynamic EQ and then checked the SPL levels of the speakers with a calibrated measurement microphone in the same spot as the first point Audyssey was run in. I used REW's Speaker Cal tone via HDMI (7.1 LPCM) audio to deliver the tones to the 4520. All tones should have measured 75dB (Master volume was -18dB for the 7 speakers and -28 for the sub / REW was set to -12dB).

What I measured rounded to the closest half a dB.

Left - 79.0
Center - 79.0
Right - 78.0
Right Side - 78.0
Right Rear - 79.0
Left Rear - 78.5
Left Side - 78.5
Sub - 73.5

Puzzled I decided to try it again with full range test tones from REW...

Left - 76.5
Center - 76.0
Right - 75.5
Right Side - 75.0
Right Rear - 76.0
Left Rear - 76.0
Left Side - 76.0
Sub - 67.0


And for kicks, the internal test tones rounded to the closest half a dB.

Left - 76
Center - 75.0
Right - 75.5
Right Side - 76.0
Right Rear - 76.0
Left Rear - 75.5
Left Side - 76.0
Sub - 69.5

So what is going on?
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post #12610 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 06:53 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
So Audyssey does really strange things... I ran a 3 point Audyssey calibration, turned off dynamic EQ and then checked the SPL levels of the speakers with a calibrated measurement microphone in the same spot as the first point Audyssey was run in. I used REW's Speaker Cal tone via HDMI (7.1 LPCM) audio to deliver the tones to the 4520. All tones should have measured 75dB (Master volume was -18dB for the 7 speakers and -28 for the sub / REW was set to -12dB).

What I measured rounded to the closest half a dB.

Left - 79.0
Center - 79.0
Right - 78.0
Right Side - 78.0
Right Rear - 79.0
Left Rear - 78.5
Left Side - 78.5
Sub - 73.5

Puzzled I decided to try it again with full range test tones from REW...

Left - 76.5
Center - 76.0
Right - 75.5
Right Side - 75.0
Right Rear - 76.0
Left Rear - 76.0
Left Side - 76.0
Sub - 67.0


And for kicks, the internal test tones rounded to the closest half a dB.

Left - 76
Center - 75.0
Right - 75.5
Right Side - 76.0
Right Rear - 76.0
Left Rear - 75.5
Left Side - 76.0
Sub - 69.5

So what is going on?
Why only three mic positions? What were the three spots?
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post #12611 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 07:36 PM
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
Why only three mic positions? What were the three spots?
Because I only sit in one seat. I measured where my head goes and a position a bit to the left and right of that. AFAIK, the SPL levels are set by only the first position. The various positions are averaged for EQ purposes. I've done enough measurements around my seat to know that feeding it 8 points doesn't improve or help anything.
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post #12612 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Because I only sit in one seat. I measured where my head goes and a position a bit to the left and right of that. AFAIK, the SPL levels are set by only the first position. The various positions are averaged for EQ purposes. I've done enough measurements around my seat to know that feeding it 8 points doesn't improve or help anything.
You might find an answer in the REW Guide linked in my sig. Go to page 98, "Using REW to Set or Measure Speaker Levels". Compare the documented procedure to what you are doing.

In my years of using Audyssey on my 4520, the speaker levels as measured by REW were usually very close to being spot-on at 75dB.
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post #12613 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You might find an answer in the REW Guide linked in my sig. Go to page 98, "Using REW to Set or Measure Speaker Levels". Compare the documented procedure to what you are doing.

In my years of using Audyssey on my 4520, the speaker levels as measured by REW were usually very close to being spot-on at 75dB.
If I use the process in your guide Audyssey is setting all 7 channels 3-4dB too loud. The first set of numbers I posted are per the method your guide uses (except the sub measurement).

Why wouldn't you want to use full range pink noise?

Last edited by Stereodude; 07-22-2015 at 08:26 PM.
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post #12614 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 08:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
If I use the process in your guide Audyssey is setting all 7 channels 3-4dB too loud. The first set of numbers I posted are per the method your guide uses (except the sub measurement).

Why wouldn't you want to use full range pink noise?
I read your post, and based on what you described, you are not following the process. AVR MV should be set to unity, and the REW signal should be output at -30dBFS.

Strangely, when you output the internal AVR test tones, they measured very close to 75dB. In my experience, the internal test tones, which are output with the Audyssey filters off, usually measure pretty close to 75dB as well, which seems to be supported by your data.
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post #12615 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
I read your post, and based on what you described, you are not following the process. AVR MV should be set to unity, and the REW signal should be output at -30dBFS.
Same difference... -18dB on the MV with a -12dB test tone is the same as 0dB on the MV with a -30dB test tone.
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post #12616 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 09:04 PM
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Just bought the x7200WA ... I'll have to post when the inevitable questions pop up!
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post #12617 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 09:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Same difference... -18dB on the MV with a -12dB test tone is the same as 0dB on the MV with a -30dB test tone.
Was the sub channel turned off?

I don't know why you got the results you did. All I can say is that in my experience, Audyssey usually does a very good job at establishing the proper trims. Perhaps you should measure again to see if you get different results. Otherwise, I can't help any further.
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post #12618 of 13580 Old 07-22-2015, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Was the sub channel turned off?
I tried it with the sub on and off. The numbers I posted are with the speakers set to large / sub off. Turning the sub on and the speakers to small only reduced the output by about like .5dB.

Quote:
I don't know why you got the results you did. All I can say is that in my experience, Audyssey usually does a very good job at establishing the proper trims. Perhaps you should measure again to see if you get different results. Otherwise, I can't help any further.
I did a quick retest of the left channel and only saw about 1.5dB difference between full range and speaker cal which is not quite as much as before. But, the speaker cal tone still measures over 75dB.
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post #12619 of 13580 Old 07-23-2015, 05:03 AM
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Just bought the x7200WA ... I'll have to post when the inevitable questions pop up!
Congrats on your new toy. When you do get around to posting questions, it would probably make a lot more sense to post them in the X7200WA thread as this is the AVR-4520CI thread.
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post #12620 of 13580 Old 07-23-2015, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
Audyssey usually does a very good job at establishing the proper trims. Perhaps you should measure again to see if you get different results. Otherwise, I can't help any further.
This morning I re-ran Audyssey and checked it again and got similar results. Ultimately, I don't really care if the 75dB output is really 76.5dB or 74dB. I'm just trying to make sure to make sure the subwoofer is set correctly against the mains and is not too quiet or too loud. If the speaker cal test tones are the right tones from REW to use for checking the mains, then Audyssey set the subwoofer a little too quiet relative to the mains (using the SPL measured from the subwoofer during a sweep at the absolutely signal level). A sweep of the Left and Right speaker (set to small) up to around 500Hz seems to agree. Using the speaker cal pink noise tone to adjust the channel trims down slightly and repeating the sweep looked more consistent against the subwoofer.

Also, @desertdome posted today in a thread in the DIY forum:
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
-3dBFS is 0dBFS when using the either AES17-1998 or IEC 61606 standards which are used in the recording industry for metering. An oscilloscope will show -3dBFS.
Perhaps that explains why a signal level of -12dBFS when sent over HDMI (LPCM) with a MV of -18dB or -30dBFS signal level with a MV of 0dB measures near 78dB, not 75dB if the decoded formats have an inherent 3dB offset that's missing from LPCM over HDMI from a PC. That's just a shot in the dark though.
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post #12621 of 13580 Old 07-23-2015, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
This morning I re-ran Audyssey and checked it again and got similar results. Ultimately, I don't really care if the 75dB output is really 76.5dB or 74dB. I'm just trying to make sure to make sure the subwoofer is set correctly against the mains and is not too quiet or too loud. If the speaker cal test tones are the right tones from REW to use for checking the mains, then Audyssey set the subwoofer a little too quiet relative to the mains (using the SPL measured from the subwoofer during a sweep at the absolutely signal level). A sweep of the Left and Right speaker (set to small) up to around 500Hz seems to agree. Using the speaker cal pink noise tone to adjust the channel trims down slightly and repeating the sweep looked more consistent against the subwoofer.

Also, @desertdome posted today in a thread in the DIY forum:

Perhaps that explains why a signal level of -12dBFS when sent over HDMI (LPCM) with a MV of -18dB or -30dBFS signal level with a MV of 0dB measures near 78dB, not 75dB if the decoded formats have an inherent 3dB offset that's missing from LPCM over HDMI from a PC. That's just a shot in the dark though.
In the final analysis, what is important is the relative level for the speakers. If they all measure 78dB, vs. 75dB, what is the impact? If the speakers sound too loud, lower MV 3dB. The sub should also measure the same as the other speakers (or louder, if that is what you prefer).

While I appreciate your efforts to explain why the levels are measuring a little high, I don't think it makes a whole lot of difference. Enjoy your system!
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post #12622 of 13580 Old 07-23-2015, 05:43 PM
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I will soon buy an Emotiva XMC-1 preamp (because of its Dirac Live processing) and would like to use my Denon 4520CI simply to amplify the 7 analog outs from the Emotiva.

I thought of using the Denon's EXT INs for that but there is only five of them...

Is there any way I could use seven of the nine Denon's internal amps to amplify the seven analog channels from my Emotiva?

I can't test it right now as I havent received my preamp yet.
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post #12623 of 13580 Old 07-23-2015, 05:48 PM
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I will soon buy an Emotiva XMC-1 preamp (because of its Dirac Live processing) and would like to use my Denon 4520CI simply to amplify the 7 analog outs from the Emotiva.

I thought of using the Denon's EXT INs for that but there is only five of them...

Is there any way I could use seven of the nine Denon's internal amps to amplify the seven analog channels from my Emotiva?

I can't test it right now as I havent received my preamp yet.
I am looking at a picture of the backplane, and it looks like the 4520 has a full 7.1 Ext In set of connections.
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post #12624 of 13580 Old 07-23-2015, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
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I am looking at a picture of the backplane, and it looks like the 4520 has a full 7.1 Ext In set of connections.
Hmmm...you're right...that was too easy

Now, let's say I want to use all the Denon amps (9) in a year or two because I will upgrade to an XMR-1 (supposed to have 16 analog outs)...would that work?
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post #12625 of 13580 Old 07-26-2015, 11:04 AM
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I was recently "gifted" a 4520ci that came back from a client due to their recent home integration upgrade. I was told that audio works, but video is having issues.
Would this piece be worth taking in & getting fixed? Figure $80 for bench fee to troubleshoot, and then most likely a new HDMI board, any idea on cost? Or should I just put it in the ewaste bucket?
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post #12626 of 13580 Old 07-26-2015, 11:07 AM
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I was recently "gifted" a 4520ci that came back from a client due to their recent home integration upgrade. I was told that audio works, but video is having issues.
Would this piece be worth taking in & getting fixed? Figure $80 for bench fee to troubleshoot, and then most likely a new HDMI board, any idea on cost? Or should I just put it in the ewaste bucket?
No idea on the repair cost, but for several hundred dollars, you won't find a better or more full featured AVR. I would certainly think it is worth the bench fee.
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post #12627 of 13580 Old 07-26-2015, 11:11 AM
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No idea on the repair cost, but for several hundred dollars, you won't find a better or more full featured AVR. I would certainly think it is worth the bench fee.
Yes, I'm leaning towards getting it looked at. I currently have a Pio VSX 1120, which I've really enjoyed since 2010, but it would be nice to get something that would update the technology and not break my wallet in the process.
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post #12628 of 13580 Old 07-26-2015, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by christoofar View Post
I was recently "gifted" a 4520ci that came back from a client due to their recent home integration upgrade. I was told that audio works, but video is having issues.
Would this piece be worth taking in & getting fixed? Figure $80 for bench fee to troubleshoot, and then most likely a new HDMI board, any idea on cost? Or should I just put it in the ewaste bucket?
If you're going to throw it away I'll pay the shipping to get it here.
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post #12629 of 13580 Old 07-26-2015, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Lobo44 View Post
If you're going to throw it away I'll pay the shipping to get it here.
Nah, gonna get it looked at first, see if repairing it is within reach of my wallet limit. I've been slowly going thru this long thread to see if any video issues have been reported for these. Mine appears to be a 2013 model, going by 3xxxxxx serial.
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post #12630 of 13580 Old 07-27-2015, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
It's the HDMI-CEC component in a compatible tv that can work with the avr for control....it is the HDMI Control in the 4520 as indicated.

As a NooB with this feature, can someone tell me how it works ? I know my TV supports it, so when I plug something directly into my tv, how does the audio get back in to the 5420 ? Does it need to be set to an input or will it just automatically start playing audio from the TV no matter what input it's on as long as nothing is being played back ?


I have a few consoles that I connect directly to the TV, would love for this to work (input via composite or S-Video)...

-Dave

MCSE 2003
Windows Media Center specialist - MVP and Certified Home Theater specialist

Avid gamer and home theater junkie..
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