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post #12751 of 12770 Old 08-29-2015, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Those fans are pretty cool. I had to move the temp sensor to one side near a fan base because the very middle is cool and doesnt match up with the area over the heat sinks. Just watching some football at normal volume, the fan cuts on for about 1 min 45 secs, then off about 2 mins 30 secs, and then back on. pretty cool.

I assume some heat builds up, they turn on and move the hot air out (can tell it cool with my hand in the air coming off the fan) and then shut back off.
I have my 1 140mm fan in the center right between where you have them. That's right between both sides of the heat sinks. Mine runs all the time when the receiver is on. It make the surface of the receiver at 100 degrees or lower even when watching power hungry movies.
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My Builds--Media console build---- Martycube build---- ADX Bass Shaker Install

Projector & Screen: Benq W1070 Elite Screens 100" Electric Video: Oppo 103d Audio: Denon 4520ci Speakers: Infinity RS5 (LW L C R RW) Infinity RS1 (LH RH) Infinity Beta ES250 (SL SR) Subwoofers: 2 SI18d4 Martycubes with iNuke3000dsp and 2 Infinity BU120 Shakers: 4 ADX shakers with Dayton SA230 amp
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post #12752 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
IMO, reference is 75db at master volume from your speakers with the -30db tone, and 75db from the sub(s) with the -40db tone. If the after Audyssey result does not yield those output numbers at reference volume, then it isn't reference at 0.0 MV
That's not entirely correct depending on your perspective and measurement method. The signal level of REW's test tones are not measured per AES/IEC specs and are 3dB too loud from what you mention (-30dB tone = 75dB from the mains). They should be -33dB and -43dB respectively with the way REW measures them. However, if you want to be really picky, that's not actually correct either. Due to some errors from using non RMS equipment in the past (courtesy of Dolby) being rolled forward a -18dB tone (per AES/IEC measurement method) is expected to read 85dB from the mains, not a -20dB tone.

Additionally, I have found I get different dB readings for the subwoofer measuring with REW when doing an actual sweep at a given dB level vs. using the sub cal signal at the same dB level. There is a several dB discrepancy (the sweep is ~2.5-3.0dB louder than the sub cal) and I'm not sure what is responsible for that. I originally postulated that it was caused by the crest factor of the signal and possible clipping, but subsequent testing showed that wasn't the cause. I'm ultimately not sure which measurement is correct. I suspect it's the sweep, but I can't prove that.
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post #12753 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bluer101 View Post
I have my 1 140mm fan in the center right between where you have them. That's right between both sides of the heat sinks. Mine runs all the time when the receiver is on. It make the surface of the receiver at 100 degrees or lower even when watching power hungry movies.
That big ol fan probably does well, pulling heat off both heat sinks at the same time.

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post #12754 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
That's not entirely correct depending on your perspective and measurement method. The signal level of REW's test tones are not measured per AES/IEC specs and are 3dB too loud from what you mention (-30dB tone = 75dB from the mains). They should be -33dB and -43dB respectively with the way REW measures them. However, if you want to be really picky, that's not actually correct either. Due to some errors from using non RMS equipment in the past (courtesy of Dolby) being rolled forward a -18dB tone (per AES/IEC measurement method) is expected to read 85dB from the mains, not a -20dB tone.

Additionally, I have found I get different dB readings for the subwoofer measuring with REW when doing an actual sweep at a given dB level vs. using the sub cal signal at the same dB level. There is a several dB discrepancy (the sweep is ~2.5-3.0dB louder than the sub cal) and I'm not sure what is responsible for that. I originally postulated that it was caused by the crest factor of the signal and possible clipping, but subsequent testing showed that wasn't the cause. I'm ultimately not sure which measurement is correct. I suspect it's the sweep, but I can't prove that.

I understand REW has some differences, but I chose not to get into that because it can confuse people not as in tune and take away from the main point. Which is, if you have a good test blu-ray and reliable mic or meter, check behind XT32 because it isn't perfect . I always do my level checking with the SPL meter and what i find there translates into my sweeps on REW.

For $130 you can get a verified SPL meter and S&M gen 2 blu-ray. For some though, I can see where that is an unnecessary cost but I suffer from AV OCD at times.

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post #12755 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
For $130 you can get a verified SPL meter and S&M gen 2 blu-ray. For some though, I can see where that is an unnecessary cost but I suffer from AV OCD at times.
But how do you know the S&M gen 2 Blu-Ray has the right signal levels? This Meyer Sound tech Report (PDF) doesn't paint a pretty picture for many calibration tones. Further, your $130 meter is only really only calibrated at 1kHz. The acceptable accuracy envelope for a Type II meter is pretty wide down in the frequency range of subs. A calibrated mic (w/ a sensitivity measurement) should be more accurate since the entire frequency range is "calibrated", not just 1kHz.
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post #12756 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 08:35 AM
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So what's the easiest way to get the IR signal out so I can close my cabinet door? I've tried a repeater I had that worked on my Yamaha but won't work with this.

Would a Harmony remote be the simplest way?
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post #12757 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
But how do you know the S&M gen 2 Blu-Ray has the right signal levels? This Meyer Sound tech Report (PDF) doesn't paint a pretty picture for many calibration tones. Further, your $130 meter is only really only calibrated at 1kHz. The acceptable accuracy envelope for a Type II meter is pretty wide down in the frequency range of subs. A calibrated mic (w/ a sensitivity measurement) should be more accurate since the entire frequency range is "calibrated", not just 1kHz.
You guys are over-thinking this. The S&M disk is one of the more highly-regarded test disks in the industry. And a CSL-calibrated SPL is going to be pretty accurate. Setting speaker output levels doesn't need to have the accuracy of open-heart surgery. If you set the level correctly at the MLP, the level is going to vary several dB across various spots in the listening room anyway, so I just don't understand the obsession with absolute accuracy.
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post #12758 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You guys are over-thinking this. The S&M disk is one of the more highly-regarded test disks in the industry. And a CSL-calibrated SPL is going to be pretty accurate. Setting speaker output levels doesn't need to have the accuracy of open-heart surgery. If you set the level correctly at the MLP, the level is going to vary several dB across various spots in the listening room anyway, so I just don't understand the obsession with absolute accuracy.
The same argument can be made against EQ'ing your sub...

If you EQ the sub at the MLP, the response is going to vary several dB across various spots in the listening room anyway, so I just don't understand the obsession with EQ'ing your sub.

In my opinion it matters because Audyssey DEQ changes its compensations based on how far from 0dB / "Reference" you are. As such, it stands to reason you should endeavor to set it as correctly as possible. If someone ends up setting their speakers to 78dB where they should be 75, and someone else ends up at 72dB instead of 75dB. The former might listen to a movie at -18dB and the latter at -12dB, Even though the master volume settings and calibration errors end up cancelling out, the DEQ adjustments won't be the same.

Further, the apparent differences in the SPL readings of subs from REW when using the SPL meter function & sub cal tone vs. sweeps at the same -dB level adds another layer of uncertainty and could lead to the subwoofer being too quiet or too loud relative to all the other speakers. I've started a thread about it at HTS and hopefully can get to the bottom of that one.
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post #12759 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post
You guys are over-thinking this. The S&M disk is one of the more highly-regarded test disks in the industry. And a CSL-calibrated SPL is going to be pretty accurate. Setting speaker output levels doesn't need to have the accuracy of open-heart surgery. If you set the level correctly at the MLP, the level is going to vary several dB across various spots in the listening room anyway, so I just don't understand the obsession with absolute accuracy.
That is my opinion Jerry.

What I learned when I got into REW was, you give a result with an SPL meter people say "those arent accurate use the umik 1". When you get the same results with a umik 1 people find issues with it. I have set my XT32 mic in such a way where the resulting sweeps look GREAT, but it sounds like crap. In other words, those sweeps can mean very little. Everyone loves to doubt the SPL meter and assume the CHEAP mic in the box does a better job, I just dont get it. If the Umik 1 and CM140 agree with each other, I am going with those numbers every time.

Anyways, after checking levels with the CM140, and then running a sweep (75db target), I find the subs are around +10db over the other speakers where they should be. I do not see the point to obsessing more than this. You can always spend more for more accuracy, but why?

As far as the spears and munsil 30dbfs and 40dbfs tones go, I spoke with them directly. The reason these tones did not make the first disc was to ensure accuracy. They worked directly with THX to get them correct and that comes from Stacey Spears mouth. He also made note he knew of more than one disc out there with issues.

One thing I learned from using REW is you can go overboard with overthinking it, just like with video cal. I used to own my own meters and you can obsess over miniscule things. You'd get great results with a $1000 meter and folks would make note that meter is only accurate to X, and the $5k meter would do better. If one is that obsessed, just hire a pro to come in and cal your system and save yourself the grief.

For me now, I run audyssey, fix my crossovers, level check with the CM140 and go about life. Things sound good. if you second guess too much, you will spend more time tweaking that listening. Realize the steps we take are WAY above the normal owner.

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post #12760 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 11:53 AM
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That is my opinion Jerry.

What I learned when I got into REW was, you give a result with an SPL meter people say "those arent accurate use the umik 1". When you get the same results with a umik 1 people find issues with it. I have set my XT32 mic in such a way where the resulting sweeps look GREAT, but it sounds like crap. In other words, those sweeps can mean very little. Everyone loves to doubt the SPL meter and assume the CHEAP mic in the box does a better job, I just dont get it. If the Umik 1 and CM140 agree with each other, I am going with those numbers every time.

Anyways, after checking levels with the CM140, and then running a sweep (75db target), I find the subs are around +10db over the other speakers where they should be. I do not see the point to obsessing more than this. You can always spend more for more accuracy, but why?

As far as the spears and munsil 30dbfs and 40dbfs tones go, I spoke with them directly. The reason these tones did not make the first disc was to ensure accuracy. They worked directly with THX to get them correct and that comes from Stacey Spears mouth. He also made note he knew of more than one disc out there with issues.

One thing I learned from using REW is you can go overboard with overthinking it, just like with video cal. I used to own my own meters and you can obsess over miniscule things. You'd get great results with a $1000 meter and folks would make note that meter is only accurate to X, and the $5k meter would do better. If one is that obsessed, just hire a pro to come in and cal your system and save yourself the grief.

For me now, I run audyssey, fix my crossovers, level check with the CM140 and go about life. Things sound good. if you second guess too much, you will spend more time tweaking that listening. Realize the steps we take are WAY above the normal owner.
I agree, enjoy the listening experience.
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post #12761 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 04:26 PM
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It's been awhile and trying to remember, what do the Movie (green) and Music(red) buttons do if you have say DD 5.1, DTS Mstr or TrueHD going?

I know for Stereo sources it changes things.

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post #12762 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 06:30 PM
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It's been awhile and trying to remember, what do the Movie (green) and Music(red) buttons do if you have say DD 5.1, DTS Mstr or TrueHD going?

I know for Stereo sources it changes things.
If you briefly press the red/green/etc buttons just indicates current mode, if you long press (like 3 sec) then you can move among available modes.
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post #12763 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 06:34 PM
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Ah, gotcha. Maybe that is why I wasn't seeing anything.

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post #12764 of 12770 Old Yesterday, 11:14 PM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
... just like with video cal. I used to own my own meters and you can obsess over miniscule things. You'd get great results with a $1000 meter and folks would make note that meter is only accurate to X, and the $5k meter would do better. If one is that obsessed, just hire a pro to come in and cal your system and save yourself the grief...
Hi gadgtfreek,

Been wanting to ask you where does a newbie who wants to know how to do video calibration go to learn things ? Don't know much about how to do video, so thought I'd ask.

Did you end up calibrating the video through AVR-4520ci for every source or just the TV using your gear? What video calibration gear is needed?

Thanks.

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post #12765 of 12770 Old Today, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The same argument can be made against EQ'ing your sub...

If you EQ the sub at the MLP, the response is going to vary several dB across various spots in the listening room anyway, so I just don't understand the obsession with EQ'ing your sub.

In my opinion it matters because Audyssey DEQ changes its compensations based on how far from 0dB / "Reference" you are. As such, it stands to reason you should endeavor to set it as correctly as possible. If someone ends up setting their speakers to 78dB where they should be 75, and someone else ends up at 72dB instead of 75dB. The former might listen to a movie at -18dB and the latter at -12dB, Even though the master volume settings and calibration errors end up cancelling out, the DEQ adjustments won't be the same.

Further, the apparent differences in the SPL readings of subs from REW when using the SPL meter function & sub cal tone vs. sweeps at the same -dB level adds another layer of uncertainty and could lead to the subwoofer being too quiet or too loud relative to all the other speakers. I've started a thread about it at HTS and hopefully can get to the bottom of that one.
That's what Jerry said: you guys are overthinking it
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post #12766 of 12770 Old Today, 02:30 AM
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Hi gadgtfreek,

Been wanting to ask you where does a newbie who wants to know how to do video calibration go to learn things ?
Start with the tutorials on the Spectracal website:

http://calman.spectracal.com/tech-tips.html

http://calman.spectracal.com/user-guides.html
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post #12767 of 12770 Old Today, 05:12 AM
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Hi gadgtfreek,

Been wanting to ask you where does a newbie who wants to know how to do video calibration go to learn things ? Don't know much about how to do video, so thought I'd ask.

Did you end up calibrating the video through AVR-4520ci for every source or just the TV using your gear? What video calibration gear is needed?

Thanks.

Reading and asking questions in the cal forum here helps
The tutorials for Calman were posted
The other software is Chromapure which I preferred. Smaller company, Tom is a nice guy, posts here and you can get him pretty easily. There was a time where Calman's customer service SUCKED, but they have fixed that issue. Still, I swapped to Chromapure and did not look back.

Once you pick the software version you want to use, then look into their meters. I like this one for the beginner:
http://www.chromapure.com/products-d3pro.asp

I actually had a pro come into my house a few times and picked their brain with questions before I got into it, so that helped in the learning curve. It is intimidating at first, but it get's easier. Be prepared to spend a few long evening staring at your display and ending with poor results , but it pays off when you can go to a relatives house and make their display noticeably better.

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Is there a way to use a separate amp along with the internal 4520 amp to bi amp the LCR? I want to add a midbass module to my Left, Center, and Right. I want to power the midbass modules with separate amps and let the 4520 avr power the LCR mains... Is this possible? How would would I connect all this up?

Thanks
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post #12769 of 12770 Unread Today, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Is there a way to use a separate amp along with the internal 4520 amp to bi amp the LCR? I want to add a midbass module to my Left, Center, and Right. I want to power the midbass modules with separate amps and let the 4520 avr power the LCR mains... Is this possible? How would would I connect all this up?

Thanks
That's going to be a tricky thing to get right. IMO if you are going to pursue this route you should do it all as an "active bi-amp" setup with an external crossover and external amps to manage those three channels. The problem is that the Denon can't filter the signal out from the LCR channels, so both the signal going to the LCR mains and the signal going to the MBMs will be full range. So the speakers and MBMs will "overlap" in the mid bass frequencies.

So what I'd suggest instead is to feed the pre-out for each channel into an active digital crossover, which splits the signal cleanly for the MBMs vs the LCRs, all of which are powered by external amps (so 6 channels total of external amplification).

In theory you CAN use both the speaker outputs and pre-outs, but the internal amps and external will have different gain structures so you have to be careful matching them up. Plus the issue I noted above with non-filtered full range signals to both outputs.

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post #12770 of 12770 Unread Today, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post
That's going to be a tricky thing to get right. IMO if you are going to pursue this route you should do it all as an "active bi-amp" setup with an external crossover and external amps to manage those three channels. The problem is that the Denon can't filter the signal out from the LCR channels, so both the signal going to the LCR mains and the signal going to the MBMs will be full range. So the speakers and MBMs will "overlap" in the mid bass frequencies.

So what I'd suggest instead is to feed the pre-out for each channel into an active digital crossover, which splits the signal cleanly for the MBMs vs the LCRs, all of which are powered by external amps (so 6 channels total of external amplification).

In theory you CAN use both the speaker outputs and pre-outs, but the internal amps and external will have different gain structures so you have to be careful matching them up. Plus the issue I noted above with non-filtered full range signals to both outputs.
Thanks for the reply! I forgot to mention that the amps for the MBM's have built in DSPs... So I was wanting the AVR to run the LCR mains as "small" with a 60hz crossover but send full range signal to the amps (with built in DSP) to the MBM's... i just didnt know if it was possible? I would like my LCR mains to remain being powered by the AVR amp.
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