The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 43 - AVS Forum
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post #1261 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 05:00 AM
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Understood ... your issue is different as you have noted ... replacing likely soon to die 5508.

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post #1262 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Understood ... your issue is different as you have noted ... replacing likely soon to die 5508.

I apologize if I went on too long.
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post #1263 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 05:15 AM
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Not at all ... rather simply agreeing with you that you are not making the change for upgrade purposes. smile.gif

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post #1264 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 05:23 AM
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I am using the 4520 in my living room with a 7.1 configuration (2 front, center speaker, 2 surround, 2 surround back speakers and a subwoofer. )

I am currently using zone 2 to go to my Pioneer wireless headphones.

I was thinking of running zone 3 to my bedroom for audio/visual spotify and pandora, to be in sync with my living area.

I ran some temporary cables to see whether it would be worth running cables under the carpet, and did not get audio, but did get video.

I am assuming my amp assignment does not allow stereo audio out, because I have assigned 7.1 and zone 2.

Is there an option to use 2 RCA Y splitter adapters to split the zone 2 pre outs, with 1 going to my headphones and 1 going to the second room? Will this work?

Are there better options?

Will I lose much quality with the splitters?

Any other thoughts appreciated.
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post #1265 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 05:42 AM
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@jd...

yes, although i did no "real" testing (and thus have no "valid" results), there is no subjective sound difference... of course, since i am subject to biases just like every human, that "subjective" opinion could be colored by my pre-existing "knowledge"... wink.gif

otoh, the new features are useful... smile.gif IF you are going to use them... as i see it, having finally got it set up the way i wanted it (all equipment centrally located in a remote location, not in the theater), IF you are going to use the matrix switch and instapreview, it's a "justifiable" upgrade over the 4311...

big IF there though... some feature commentary...

- so far, i've found 2 uses for instapreview... picture in picture for sports, and to keep a game up on the screen while i'm using the pj as a monitor for the mac mini... as alluded to in earlier posts, this is a big "win" for me... other than those two things, i'm struggling to find a use for it...

- your "happiness" with instapreview will be directly related to your screen size/viewing distance... i sit 10 feet from a 8 foot wide screen, and it is "big enough" that i can read the scrolling espn ticker... in a "normal living room environment" with a flat panel, and at a "normal seating distance" in that environment, it would not make me as happy... it would have the same issue as picture in picture functions always had for me, that being the overlayed picture is too small to see anything, and was merely a distraction...

- the zone 4 matrix switch is "useful" IF you have the setup in place to use it... all of the normal hdmi caveats (such as length of run, etc.) still apply... i have zone 4 set up to feed a display in my wife's office/play room...

- i'm collecting some data and notes on how instapreview affects picture quality... more on this to come in a bit once i make heads or tails of what i'm seeing... it appears as if doing the overlay invokes some type of processing that isn't invoked when doing a simple osd overlay...

- chris

 

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post #1266 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 05:44 AM
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@tachy -

More likely you're trying to pass an HDMI or digital source to Zone 2 as there should be no reason you cannot pass either an analog source or networking source to Zone 2.

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post #1267 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Understood ... your issue is different as you have noted ... replacing likely soon to die 5508.

I apologize if I went on too long.

no apologies necessary... that was actually very short, and was a useful data point...

tbh... if you aren't positive you aren't going to use the new features, or you don't have the "gotta have the new toy" syndrome that some of us are afflicted with,the 4311 is by FAR the better buy right now... the difference in street price is about 7 franklins, and that is nothing to sneeze at...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #1268 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 05:48 AM
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@Chris -
Yes, clearly a worthwhile "upgrade" in features for you as you seem to be a very happy camper. smile.gif Also thanks for the more detailed review of InstaPreview as well. Much appreciated.

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post #1269 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 06:11 AM
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@ JDsmoothie

Yes, but what is the best way to pass this source via RCA cables from my 4520? As I said, I am using 7.1 in my main viewing area and zone 2 rca audio outs are already running to my main area wireless headphones. Since the 4520 was missing digital audio out, I had to tie up zone 2 with that as a work a round.
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post #1270 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 06:14 AM
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@jd...

yup... smile.gif you know me, i've been in the "buy electronics for features" camp for a long time... wink.gif

and it's always nice when the position i've reasoned myself into (the new features would make it worth selling a perfectly good a100 in order to "upgrade") proves out to be a tenable one... tongue.gif

- chris

 

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post #1271 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 06:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tachy View Post

@ JDsmoothie
Yes, but what is the best way to pass this source via RCA cables from my 4520? As I said, I am using 7.1 in my main viewing area and zone 2 rca audio outs are already running to my main area wireless headphones. Since the 4520 was missing digital audio out, I had to tie up zone 2 with that as a work a round.

You either have to connect the source with RCA cables to the AVR (in addition to the HDMI connection) or connect the source to a 3rd party DAC which is then connected via RCA cables to the AVR.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?seq=1&format=2&p_id=6884&CAWELAID=1329453854&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CJLDrbP3-7MCFQyDnQodfBkAPg

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post #1272 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

@tachy -
More likely you're trying to pass an HDMI or digital source to Zone 2 as there should be no reason you cannot pass either an analog source or networking source to Zone 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You either have to connect the source with RCA cables to the AVR (in addition to the HDMI connection) or connect the source to a 3rd party DAC which is then connected via RCA cables to the AVR.
http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?seq=1&format=2&p_id=6884&CAWELAID=1329453854&cagpspn=pla&gclid=CJLDrbP3-7MCFQyDnQodfBkAPg

I may be confused, but my problem I think is that the 4520 does not have enough of the RCA outs to go to both my headphones and my second zone bedrooom, if I want to have the main room with 7.1 provide audio out, so I was going to use an rca Y splitter with half going to the headphones and 1/2 going to the bedroom. I am not using HDMI, but instead a composite video out which seems to work fine for the low quality video of the internet radio/spotify/pandora video feed which just shows albumcovers.

It does not involve HDMI and does not seem to have much to do with needed any 3rd party DAC.

Is it possible to get 7.1 out of main area, and RCA audio out to the headphones (zone 2 I presume) and RCA audio out to the 2nd receiver? (composite video in and RCA analog audio in) using one of the Yamaha AV composite/RCA audio inputs?
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post #1273 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

no apologies necessary... that was actually very short, and was a useful data point...
tbh... if you aren't positive you aren't going to use the new features, or you don't have the "gotta have the new toy" syndrome that some of us are afflicted with,the 4311 is by FAR the better buy right now... the difference in street price is about 7 franklins, and that is nothing to sneeze at...

Yes, $700 is a lot and I am not really in a position to be spending much money at all at this time. I thought the difference would be about $400, still significant.
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post #1274 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 06:47 AM
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follow up and continuing saga of the avr dropping the ip address and becoming unresponsive to the network:

- avr "lost" it's network connection with a static ip address and with the avr still on... data points from this... it doesn't matter if avr is "on" or not for the issue to arise, nor does a static address help... note: this happened suspiciously close to 8 hours after joining the network, and the avr was on the whole time...

- tried flipping back and forth from dhcp to non dhcp to see if that would force it to re-acquire the address (or alternatively, get assigned one)... no joy...

- tried to do a network reset, ended up doing a microprocessor reset instead due to "up/down/power on" causing a mp reset rather than a network reset... calling jd/batpig... calling jd/batpig... any idea on correct key combination for network reset? or am i just remembering the process wrong? note: mp reset did NOT do a network reset... the network info i had coded into the avr (ip addy, etc.) was still there...

- deleted all references to static ip address for avr in router... unplugged avr... re-plugged avr... avr joins network and became accessible...

- was getting late, so i decided to try something... i turned the "network" from "always on" to "off during standby" and went to bed...

- got up this morning, brought up deremote app to make sure that i couldn't actually access the avr over the network when it was in standby, and could not... turned on avr... avr connected to the network and became accessible...

i'm beginning to lean a bit towards some type of user error here (vs. a bad card, or something like that), based on the above...

also, interesting data point from the router (fios one, pretty old)... when i do a display of network connections, every device (iphones, ipads, random wired devices) on the network says "remote access: enabled" EXCEPT the avr... not really sure that means anything, my networking skills (and knowledge of the fios router) are rudimentary at best...

we will see what happens... any thoughts on the above are welcome...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #1275 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 06:51 AM
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I wouldn't be surprised if it were the router. I had a router that stopped connecting with my Onkyo and it was solved by purchasing a newer router (still a dc'd model but recent). Up to when it was replaced it connected intermittently despite having a fixed IP address.
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post #1276 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 06:58 AM
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I'll have to check as I wasn't aware the network reset procedure (ie. UP/DOWN arrow) had changed. Although, did you ever do it on the A100? And if yes, were the network settings changed or the card simply reset? However, note that the network reset also includes a microprocessor reset as part of the process. Also, agree with Theresa in that you should probably buy a more current model router as that generally solves the intermittent connection problem.

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post #1277 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 07:07 AM
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^^^

yup... up/down on the dpad does a mp reset... i was a bit surprised when that happened... tongue.gif edit: not that i recall on the a100, although i'm sure i did at one time or another... and yea, i thought mp reset should do a network reset, but it doesn't appear that it did... i'll try another one after i reach a vertical state today...

i'll call verizon and get them to send me a new router... smile.gif i suppose it can't hurt, although it would be somewhat odd for it to be unique to the avr...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

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post #1278 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 07:44 AM
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I am looking to upgrade my Denon AVR 5805 with a 4520. Does anyone see that the drop off in watts per channel will effect the performance of my Klipsch 7800 THX in wall speakers. I am running 7.1.
Thanks for your input.

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post #1279 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
yup... up/down on the dpad does a mp reset... i was a bit surprised when that happened... tongue.gif edit: not that i recall on the a100, although i'm sure i did at one time or another... and yea, i thought mp reset should do a network reset, but it doesn't appear that it did... i'll try another one after i reach a vertical state today...
i'll call verizon and get them to send me a new router... smile.gif i suppose it can't hurt, although it would be somewhat odd for it to be unique to the avr...

The "network reset" (aka "deep reset") is more comprehensive than the mp reset as it also includes the mp reset.

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post #1280 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

I am looking to upgrade my Denon AVR 5805 with a 4520. Does anyone see that the drop off in watts per channel will effect the performance of my Klipsch 7800 THX in wall speakers. I am running 7.1.
Thanks for your input.

At 8-ohm and 91db sensitivity, they don't draw much power, so no.

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post #1281 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 07:53 AM
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@ccotenj

One of the many reasons I run more competent router/wifi hardware behind the bugfest that is the Verizon ActionTec. The VZ router is acting as a pass through except for what's necessary to keep Verizon services up and running.

Far fewer network quirks and unexplained issues.
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post #1282 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
yup... up/down on the dpad does a mp reset... i was a bit surprised when that happened... tongue.gif edit: not that i recall on the a100, although i'm sure i did at one time or another... and yea, i thought mp reset should do a network reset, but it doesn't appear that it did... i'll try another one after i reach a vertical state today...
i'll call verizon and get them to send me a new router... smile.gif i suppose it can't hurt, although it would be somewhat odd for it to be unique to the avr...

If using a Verizon Actiontec router .... on the router, go to Advanced (accept the warning) and go to the IGMP Proxy menu and disable IGMP Proxy which should resolve the issue. The issue here generally only presents when the AVR is wired directly to the Actiontec router and the iDevice is connected wirelessly. Note however, that if streaming IPTV, disabling this proxy will also disable the IPTV connection, so in that case you'll need to leave IGMP enabled and place an ethernet switch between the Actiontec and the rest of the network.

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I am running analog 7 channel out from my Denon DBP-2012UDCI blu ray player to the 5805. So the blu ray is doing all of the processing of the audio signal. Would i get better SQ but upgrading to the newer 4520? Thanks.. Just trying to figure out if the switch makes sense.

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Emotiva XPR-5
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L/C/R Klipsch KL7800 THX, SL/SR Klipsch KS7800 THX
SBL/SBL, FHL/FHR, FWL/FWR Klipsch 5800W
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post #1284 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 08:01 AM
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update on the instapreview caption overlay...

here, we have some joy... biggrin.gif although i'm not quite sure "why" yet... confused.gif

i was doing random "try and find the bugs in the new remote control programming" testing, making sure all components did what they were supposed to and making sure it controlled the fios boxes as desired... when, boom, the overlay disappeared...

of course, since i was just randomly pushing buttons and jumping back and forth between components, i had no idea what keystroke combination caused this to happen... rolleyes.gif

going on the theory of "it's software/firmware, if it happened once, it can be made to happen again", i tried a more structured approach to testing... sat there for well over an hour, working my way through keystroke combinations, and nada... could not make the overlay go away again... was getting a bit tired of pressing buttons, so gave it a break...

later on, i was watching, and flipped over to the darbee screen on the remote to adjust it... adjusted it, and flipped back to the tv activity... accidentally hit the "option" button (for the avr), which would normally bring up the "position" submenu for instapreview... this time it did not (!)... this time it brought up the "picture mode" submenu (expected behaviour when NOT using instapreview)... when i hit "option" again to clear the submenu, BINGO, the caption overlay was gone...

i repeated this several times to ensure it was not a fluke, and it was not... same results every time...

so... i can make it go away... which makes me very happy... smile.gif that being said, i am somewhat confused as to what is going on...

- flipping over to the darbee activity on the remote and controlling the darbee should have no effect on the behaviour of the avr... the avr shouldn't be able to "know" this happened, as all of this happens either within the remote itself or in the basestation for the remote...

- yet it seems to somehow "know"... as when i return back to the tv actvity from the darbee control menu, the avr "forgets" it is in "instapreview" mode, even though an uncaptioned and active frame is still being generated... i proved this by attempting to scroll through sources in the instapreview frame and it would not change sources... this is also supported by the "picture mode" submenu being displayed when hitting the option key, rather than the "position" submenu...

me confused... confused.gif happy, but confused...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #1285 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

I am running analog 7 channel out from my Denon DBP-2012UDCI blu ray player to the 5805. So the blu ray is doing all of the processing of the audio signal. Would i get better SQ but upgrading to the newer 4520? Thanks.. Just trying to figure out if the switch makes sense.

it would make a lot of sense, but only if you also bought a bdp that would allow you to connect with hdmi...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #1286 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Randy Schmidt View Post

I am running analog 7 channel out from my Denon DBP-2012UDCI blu ray player to the 5805. So the blu ray is doing all of the processing of the audio signal. Would i get better SQ but upgrading to the newer 4520? Thanks.. Just trying to figure out if the switch makes sense.

Yes, most definitely. smile.gif The jump from MultEQ to MultEQ XT32 should be quite noticeable. Note however, that in order to take advantage of the new Denon Link HD, you'll need to purchase the Denon DBT-3313UDCI.

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post #1287 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 08:06 AM
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I give you 6 months before you crack. smile.gif....
Ha-ha, probably right...
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...Seriously though, you don't really know until you can compare both receivers in the same system.
True. Allow me to expound at length. biggrin.gif I found it necessary to do the tiresome purchasing and gear swapping when I compared HT bypass preamps. No one could tell me what they'd sound like in my room. The HT preamps connected to an Emotiva amp did add some SQ vs the AVR 4310, particularly detail, imaging and clarity to the high end. But without Audyssey the uncorrected bass in the room made the overall SQ poor, IMO unlistenable, as I have no formal acoustic treatments in my fam rm/HT. Audyssey and good bass management are indispensible for me. Once I got the A100, the clarity of the HTpreamps was matched by the AVR, likely due to the superior processing of XT32, vs XT in the 4310. As you may know, XT32 prioritizes fixing the biggest trouble spots-in my room, as is the case for so many of us, is the bass. It seems to leave the highs untouched in any audibly negative way in my room. If interested see http://www.avsforum.com/t/1300698/preamps-with-ht-bypass-for-under-2k.

Not really knowing how it'll sound till you try it is why I considered the extreme measure of buying the vaunted Denon flagship preamp, the AVPA1, to do an in-home A/B vs the A100. Unlike the 4520, that pre/pro has the old DenonLink connection that matches my current Denon BDPA100player, but the cost of even a used XT32 upgraded AVP is easily $5K or more. Based on my research on the threads I expected some SQ improvements because of the unique preamp circuits and wiring, etc.-but how much? (if interested, see http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432126/should-i-buy-a-denon-avp-a1hdci-now) I'll probably never know, as sanity has prevailed for the time being, as I keep in mind the law of diminishing SQ returns per dollar spent as one climbs the summits of audiophile gear. So I have followed this thread with interest, as well as lurking a bit in the new Marantz AV8801 prepro thread. So far my $ seems better spent on more high quality music and films.smile.gif

BTW, I also ended up buying gear to do an in-home test of DenonLink. With the DenonLink player via CAT5 and an Oppo via HDMI to the A100 it was easy for me to A/B. All I had to do was put in identical discs, level-match and start switching back and forth on identical short musical pasages repeating on both players. BTW DL won handily for music (if interested, see http://www.avsforum.com/t/1349373/does-denon-link-really-matter). It'd be interesting to hear about a similar test using the new Denon player hooked up via DLHD with the 4520. This comparison can easily be made BAB.

It was a little harder to, say, compare XT32 vs XT32 with Audyssey Pro in the A100 as that involved delay between A and B and thus Auditory Memory (AM) issues. The A/B switch takes about 5-6 min. Though no physical wire switching is involved, each calibration has to Load using the Denon Network Save/Load feature. IME there is an obvious SQ improvement with Pro, similar in quality but not as large quantitavely as the improvement from XT to XT32- and that seems to be the consensus of other Pro users. And that's without using Pro's very cool custom curve editing which can yield even more SQ improvements. I try to get around AM by using very familiar passages and listening to very specific aspects of the recording- string noise on a guitar, echo on a voice and taking notes.

Another example- to simplify comparing the A100 Preamp mode (no signal to amps) to Normal mode, I shut off Audyssey to get around that calibration Load time so switching was about 10 sec. BTW I thought I heard a subtle, slight improvement in fine detail such as airiness/ambiance for Preamp Mode. With such subtle differences, small mistakes in level-matching can skew results. So my conclusion was that even if the difference really existed, it really wasn't worth it to me to run Preamp mode as it necessitates having ext amps for all channels. Now I use the Halcro MC30 for FR/L and CC and four AVR internal amps for surrounds and wides and it sounds fab. I believe that the same would be found with using Preamp mode in the 4520-it'd be interesting for someone with a 4520 to test it.

Teresa's point is well taken. AVRs are some of the hardest hifi components to A/B accurately. Assuming that the room and the speakers are the same, the time involved switching wires introduces AM issues. One thing commonly overlooked is controlling for variance in running Audyssey-after all, slightly different mic positions can result in different SQ in the same AVR! Making sure every setting is identical in both units requires a "preflight checklist". Then there's level-matching. When we finally get to the wire switching back and forth Auditory Memory comes into play. And if you don't have both AVRs in the room at the same time AM becomes nearly insurmoutable. Add it's so difficult to BAB AVRs-how often is that done?

So I read the AVR comparisons posted by respected AVSers especially thosewho are experienced AVR A/Bers. No disrespect intended, I take even those with a grain of salt because of the above-mentioned AVR A/B challenges. Also, pretty much no comparisons use DenonLink and/or Audyssey Pro. My take (in agreement with Chris completely) is that for most, chosing between XT32-equipped upper AVR models of Denon (4311, 4520), and even similar offerings from Onk, should be based on features, pricing/availability and of course ones personal situation. For ex., as I love DenonLink, Onk or Marantz are pretty much off the table for now. They would have to really step it up to tempt me.

As to the 4520, it has yet to be established whether there is a way to make DLHD backwards compatible. So if I got one might I might need a pricey new Denon player. And of course $150 for a new Pro license too. So I'm cooling it for now.wink.gif Apologies for overly long post.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #1288 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 08:07 AM
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The blu ray player I have is brand new from Denon and does have HDMI out as well as 7 channel analog out. If running it through HDMI to the 4520, what am I going to gain from the change to that receiver from the 5805? Thanks...

Denon AVR 4520ci
Emotiva XPR-5
Denon 3313 BDP
L/C/R Klipsch KL7800 THX, SL/SR Klipsch KS7800 THX
SBL/SBL, FHL/FHR, FWL/FWR Klipsch 5800W
(4) Epik Empire subs/(1) DIY 18" sub
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post #1289 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 08:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^
yup... up/down on the dpad does a mp reset... i was a bit surprised when that happened... tongue.gif edit: not that i recall on the a100, although i'm sure i did at one time or another... and yea, i thought mp reset should do a network reset, but it doesn't appear that it did... i'll try another one after i reach a vertical state today...
i'll call verizon and get them to send me a new router... smile.gif i suppose it can't hurt, although it would be somewhat odd for it to be unique to the avr...

If using a Verizon Actiontec router .... on the router, go to Advanced (accept the warning) and go to the IGMP Proxy menu and disable IGMP Proxy which should resolve the issue. The issue here generally only presents when the AVR is wired directly to the Actiontec router and the iDevice is connected wirelessly. Note however, that if streaming IPTV, disabling this proxy will also disable the IPTV connection, so in that case you'll need to leave IGMP enabled and place an ethernet switch between the Actiontec and the rest of the network.

a never ending fount of information you are... smile.gif many a beer i owe you... biggrin.gif

i have a switch in my rack (time capsule lives there which is what i use for my wi-fi network)... i'll swap the avr network cable from the router over to that...

- chris

 

my build thread - updated 8-20-12 - new seating installed and projector isolation solution

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1332917/ccotenj-finally-gets-a-projector

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post #1290 of 8833 Old 12-02-2012, 08:11 AM
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I am having a hard time understanding why it would be a good decision to change due to the fact that the 5805 had a prices point back in 2005 of $5k plus, where the 4520 is a 400o series receive and half the price in 2012. Are the receivers not made with the same quality as back in the past? Or are they able to make the receivers at a better cost to the consumer? Or has the economy changed what Denon is providing to their consumers (No 5000 series receivers anymore)? Thanks...

Denon AVR 4520ci
Emotiva XPR-5
Denon 3313 BDP
L/C/R Klipsch KL7800 THX, SL/SR Klipsch KS7800 THX
SBL/SBL, FHL/FHR, FWL/FWR Klipsch 5800W
(4) Epik Empire subs/(1) DIY 18" sub
Darbee Darblet
Epson 5030UB/135" Fixed Mount Screen
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