The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 442 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

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Old 02-21-2016, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
Just FYI - the X7200WA will be the top-of-the-line Denon until late 2017; apparently this time around D+M is on a three-year cycle with their flagship receiver and the Marantz AV8802A pre-pro.
Well that sucks.

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Old 02-21-2016, 01:08 PM
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I am in the same boat...but I have decided to wait for next year's models...
Hopefully Auro 3D will be standard... Google Cast built in and even more refinement and efficiency.

Next year might be big for me... Finally upgrade to Atmos/DTS:X & a 4K Dolby Vision set.

Also...if the new models have no reason to purchase vs the current....it will just make them cheaper...

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Old 02-21-2016, 05:06 PM
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Well that sucks.

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Not sure why that sucks; if anything it means that if you buy an X7200WA today it'll be current for almost another two full years. It also means that its feature set won't be surpassed by anything D+M makes for the same length of time; in other words, there's likely no new significant tech or features on the horizon.
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Old 02-21-2016, 05:38 PM
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Not sure why that sucks; if anything it means that if you buy an X7200WA today it'll be current for almost another two full years. It also means that its feature set won't be surpassed by anything D+M makes for the same length of time; in other words, there's likely no new significant tech or features on the horizon.
Lol. I was joking.. It is a good deal...

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Old 02-21-2016, 05:57 PM
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Deep Reset is holding down the up/down arrow keys on the front panel, power on while holding those. But you will lose your setup if you did any.


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Still had the same issue after doing that. I noticed that Internet radio would work sometime and sometimes not.

I replaced the Ethernet cable and rebooted the router and switch and one of those things fixed it.

Should have done one at a time so I would know what the fix was!
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
Not sure why that sucks; if anything it means that if you buy an X7200WA today it'll be current for almost another two full years. It also means that its feature set won't be surpassed by anything D+M makes for the same length of time; in other words, there's likely no new significant tech or features on the horizon.
I am not sure what you consider significant
However...the Asian manufacturers seem to snag some new feature just about every year

Maybe its part of their business model to keep people in the market?

3 years is a long time...using the last few years changes as a litmus test
If the unit is upgradeable then that is great if not then its "boat anchor" time

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Old 02-22-2016, 06:42 AM
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I am not sure what you consider significant
However...the Asian manufacturers seem to snag some new feature just about every year

Maybe its part of their business model to keep people in the market?

3 years is a long time...using the last few years changes as a litmus test
If the unit is upgradeable then that is great if not then its "boat anchor" time

Warren
The last three years isn't representative IMO of the degree of change we can expect in year-to-year model upgrades. In terms of what I'd call "significant features," we got:

Dolby Atmos
DTS:X
HDMI 2.0a
HDCP 2.2
4K
WCG
HDR

The X7200WA supports all of these features now. We might see new DSP modes, or more HDMI inputs, or snazzier internet streaming capability, or a new Audyssey/REQ scheme, but in terms of "significant features," I don't see anything on the horizon that would knock the X7200WA off of its perch as D+M's flagship receiver, much less render it obsolete. Obviously neither does Denon or they wouldn't plan on keeping it as the top model for another (almost) two years.
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Old 02-22-2016, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwa View Post
The last three years isn't representative IMO of the degree of change we can expect in year-to-year model upgrades. In terms of what I'd call "significant features," we got:

Dolby Atmos
DTS:X
HDMI 2.0a
HDCP 2.2
4K
WCG
HDR

The X7200WA supports all of these features now. We might see new DSP modes, or more HDMI inputs, or snazzier internet streaming capability, or a new Audyssey/REQ scheme, but in terms of "significant features," I don't see anything on the horizon that would knock the X7200WA off of its perch as D+M's flagship receiver, much less render it obsolete. Obviously neither does Denon or they wouldn't plan on keeping it as the top model for another (almost) two years.
or D&M makes sure their flagship models have a level of internal "upgradability" that the lower models dont have
IMO...Asian electronics buyers want the newest of the new each year. A business model not shared by the higher end "esoteric" brands or perhaps not important to their buyers.
That being said..there are still couple of things in flux from a sound standpoint and I cant imagine something not in the pipeline in regards to another latest and greatest video upgrade from the Tv manufacturers
8K ..perhaps another version of room correction?
No one has a crystal ball.
The good news is that , in the past, D&M has offered upgrades on the highest end models..ie..AVP and 5308
The lower models..SOL

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Old 02-22-2016, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
or D&M makes sure their flagship models have a level of internal "upgradability" that the lower models dont have
IMO...Asian electronics buyers want the newest of the new each year. A business model not shared by the higher end "esoteric" brands or perhaps not important to their buyers.
That being said..there are still couple of things in flux from a sound standpoint and I cant imagine something not in the pipeline in regards to another latest and greatest video upgrade from the Tv manufacturers
8K ..perhaps another version of room correction?
No one has a crystal ball.
The good news is that , in the past, D&M has offered upgrades on the highest end models..ie..AVP and 5308
The lower models..SOL

Warren
The so called "esoteric" brands simply don't have the development resources (the people or the cash) to come out with new models every year.

What is really in flux at this point regarding audio formats? Other than any bug fixes needed for Atmos, DTS:X, and (to a lesser degree as it isn't as relevant) Auro 3D, all of which should be solvable with firmware updates, what else isn't in place yet? Lower end models might not support the new 3D sound formats, but that's more a matter of it doesn't make sense to support them on lower models. Just how many amp channels can you include at the $600 price point and still deliver a product that has at least a minimum level of quality?

The manufacturers have just started to get a return on investment for 4K displays, UHD Bluray is just coming out, and the picture quality improvement is going to come more from HDR than the jump in resolution from 1080P to 4K. I don't see 8K being a relevant topic any time soon, and certainly not within the next few years.

As @Schwa already mentioned, a new version of Audyssey (or another room correction option) is certainly possible, but also isn't likely to render existing AVR's obsolete overnight.

I personally think it's a good thing that new developments are stabilizing or slowing down a bit for the time being. It will give the manufacturers a chance to spend some time fixing bugs and stabilizing their firmware rather than spending so much time rolling out new products.

The one place where I see a need for new AVR's / pre-pros (or hardware revisions, at least) is for full 18Gbps bandwidth support for 4K. On the high end, McIntosh's MX-160 at around $13K is an example that needs to be updated, and there are plenty of lower end products that don't support this yet.
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:23 AM
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The so called "esoteric" brands simply don't have the development resources (the people or the cash) to come out with new models every year.
I would disagree with you here
If there was a substantial enough market that people bought $10-15K+ audio components each year those companies would be putting them out
Even D&M with its AVP had that product in the market for several years
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What is really in flux at this point regarding audio formats? Other than any bug fixes needed for Atmos, DTS:X, and (to a lesser degree as it isn't as relevant) Auro 3D, all of which should be solvable with firmware updates, what else isn't in place yet? Lower end models might not support the new 3D sound formats, but that's more a matter of it doesn't make sense to support them on lower models. Just how many amp channels can you include at the $600 price point and still deliver a product that has at least a minimum level of quality?
You just listed a few things that the dust has yet to settle on. As far as a minimum level of quality that is extremely subjective. It seems..IMO...that the mass market manufacturers have gone feature set over build/amp/power supply quality in the last 5-7 years
Which is fine..it only makes sense to build what people want at a price they can afford
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The manufacturers have just started to get a return on investment for 4K displays, UHD Bluray is just coming out, and the picture quality improvement is going to come more from HDR than the jump in resolution from 1080P to 4K. I don't see 8K being a relevant topic any time soon, and certainly not within the next few years.
In a declining market..displays...where only a couple of manufacturers are turning a profit...it seems to me that the manufacturers seem to pushing the "next big thing" consistently.
HDR is a good example..I think the data shows that on the majority of TV's sold these days..edge lit LED's...that its benefits are questionable.
This is based on data I have been reading
You may know more about this ...since you seem to have a handle on what return the manufacturer's have had from 4K investment
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As @Schwa already mentioned, a new version of Audyssey (or another room correction option) is certainly possible, but also isn't likely to render existing AVR's obsolete overnight.
That is subjective
There are plenty with Multi EQ XT that are doing fine with what they bought in their 4308/4310 models
Others had to run out and get XT32..etc
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I personally think it's a good thing that new developments are stabilizing or slowing down a bit for the time being. It will give the manufacturers a chance to spend some time fixing bugs and stabilizing their firmware rather than spending so much time rolling out new products.

The one place where I see a need for new AVR's / pre-pros (or hardware revisions, at least) is for full 18Gbps bandwidth support for 4K. On the high end, McIntosh's MX-160 at around $13K is an example that needs to be updated, and there are plenty of lower end products that don't support this yet.
I dont have a crystal ball and see 8K display prototypes are in the market in certain areas of the world
I do think its a good thing when technology has the bugs worked out
HDMI..as an example was a night mare the first few years
I have never been one to jump the first season into new technology..typically it been year two
At this point..quite honestly, I am good with waiting longer for technology to be reliable
I am also happy to take advantage of the accelerated rate that prices and value fall on these items..most times in just 12-18 months from their initial introduction
I remember back in the 90's( the old days LOL)..the staying power( and value) of electronics was far more consistent

I use the AVR of this thread as an example..the 4520
Many paid over 2K for that unit in the first 12 months
Then street price was about $1500 for quite some time
I paid about 45% off the street price

Today..that unit..in great shape ..is only worth about 1/3 of what the lowest street price was before clearance
That is very quick from introduction time to current value

let me be clear though
I am not complaining about the rapid fall in value..:-)

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Old 02-22-2016, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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I have had the 4520 for a few years now. Does it make sense to upgrade? Or are upcoming models worth waiting for? When do they come out in the year?
There are two primary reasons one would want to upgrade from the 4520 to the X7200WA:

1. You're upgrading to 4k/UHD sources and need HDCP 2.2 / HDMI 2.0a support in the receiver.

2. You want to upgrade to an immersive audio setup to support Atmos / DTS:X

As noted above the 7200 will be the flagship for a couple more years so if you need either of the above then no need to wait. If you don't need either of the above then enjoy the 4520.
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Old 02-22-2016, 09:45 AM
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I would disagree with you here
If there was a substantial enough market that people bought $10-15K+ audio components each year those companies would be putting them out
Even D&M with its AVP had that product in the market for several years
Companies such as Krell and Theta - boutique brands - do NOT have the resources to develop new products in this space at the rate you think they should. Bringing out new surround sound processors and Bluray players is a big deal because it costs a ton of money to switch to the latest chipset and pay for new licenses, etc. This is why you typically see the bigger mass market companies coming out with new products far more frequently than the smaller companies. When you're selling "millions" of products versus thousands or (in some cases) hundreds of products, you have the financial resources and personnel that's needed as well as the ability to spread the development costs out over many more units.

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You just listed a few things that the dust has yet to settle on.
None of those things I listed require new hardware.

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As far as a minimum level of quality that is extremely subjective. It seems..IMO...that the mass market manufacturers have gone feature set over build/amp/power supply quality in the last 5-7 years
Which is fine..it only makes sense to build what people want at a price they can afford
But there is ultimately a limit to how much you can cram in at the lower price points and have a product that is functional enough to sell. There's a reason why you have to get to the mid and upper price points to get beyond 7 channels of amplification built in (fortunately the manufacturers seem to be smart enough to realize that a $600 AVR with 11 channels of amplification wouldn't perform very well). I would also wager that people buying budget products shouldn't even be considering things like height speakers to implement the 3D audio formats. Those people would be a lot better off, IMHO, spending their more limited resources on fewer, better speakers, rather than spending the same money on junk.

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HDR is a good example..I think the data shows that on the majority of TV's sold these days..edge lit LED's...that its benefits are questionable.
When properly implemented, HDR is the best reason to upgrade to a 4K display. That doesn't mean that all TV's with HDR are going to be great.

Ultimately, all of this is off topic in this thread, so it's probably best not to clutter up this thread.
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:17 AM
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Companies such as Krell and Theta - boutique brands - do NOT have the resources to develop new products in this space at the rate you think they should. Bringing out new surround sound processors and Bluray players is a big deal because it costs a ton of money to switch to the latest chipset and pay for new licenses, etc. This is why you typically see the bigger mass market companies coming out with new products far more frequently than the smaller companies. When you're selling "millions" of products versus thousands or (in some cases) hundreds of products, you have the financial resources and personnel that's needed as well as the ability to spread the development costs out over many more units.
.
I think any established electronics company has the resources to invest in $10-15K processors if they thought they were marketable for a buyer every 12-24 months. I dont think that market exists
.I cant imagine that D&M wouldn't have a $15K processor if they thought it would sell profitably for them and not diminish their profits on mass market AVR's. Especially if that high end market churned as quickly as the mass market units do
D&M is actually not setting the world in fire financially either...hopefully you know that right?
What you are not recognizing( or not stating) is that the markets served by D&M and the brands you listed are completely different...its really apples and oranges
So..yes..there are the millions which are probably majority served by an under $500 AVR and other companies that market $10K and up components
Very different markets and open customer opportunity situation

But anyway..getting back to the 4520 etc
Quick changes..fast life cycle...fully featured and cutting edge for its time
Thats the market D&M sells to
Again..no complaints...for the prevailing prices and value of both it and its "clone" the 8801

as I recall you bought an AVP at some point correct?
if I remember correctly the price you paid was far lower than anything that D&M positioned that unit to sell against


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Old 02-22-2016, 11:34 AM
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I think any established electronics company has the resources to invest in $10-15K processors if they thought they were marketable for a buyer every 12-24 months. I dont think that market exists
You can think whatever you like, but that doesn't make it true...

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What you are not recognizing( or not stating) is that the markets served by D&M and the brands you listed are completely different...its really apples and oranges
You were the one who brought up esoteric brands. I explained why those brands can't afford to bring new products out as frequently as the more mass market brands.

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as I recall you bought an AVP at some point correct?
if I remember correctly the price you paid was far lower than anything that D&M positioned that unit to sell against
I still own and use my Denon AVP-A1HDCI (with the 3D and Audyssey XT32 upgrade) in my primary system (my 4520 is used in a secondary system). The MSRP for the AVP was actually in the same ballpark as the Anthem D2, Krell Foundation, and some other similar products which it was intended to compete with. The only features it is missing are 4K support and the new 3D audio formats.
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Old 02-22-2016, 11:40 AM
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You can think whatever you like, but that doesn't make it true...


You were the one who brought up esoteric brands. I explained why those brands can't afford to bring new products out as frequently as the more mass market brands.


I still own and use my Denon AVP-A1HDCI (with the 3D and Audyssey XT32 upgrade) in my primary system (my 4520 is used in a secondary system). The MSRP for the AVP was actually in the same ballpark as the Anthem D2, Krell Foundation, and some other similar products which it was intended to compete with. The only features it is missing are 4K support and the new 3D audio formats.
and I explained that its a completely different market that D&M serves vs the esoteric brands

that was primarily the reason that people like you were able to buy Denon AVP's so much cheaper that the for pieces like the Anthem D2V

and again...I dont mind the fast depreciation in 12-24 months from product introduction...

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Old 02-22-2016, 03:12 PM
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At the very least the next upgrade over the 7200 needs to supports 13 channel processing so that people with front wides added to their 7.1 system can enable 4 heights as well. This is a glaring omission from the 13.2 channel 7200. It can connect 13 speakers at a time but can only process content for 11 speakers at a time.


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Old 02-22-2016, 03:23 PM
 
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At the very least the next upgrade over the 7200 needs to supports 13 channel processing so that people with front wides added to their 7.1 system can enable 4 heights as well. This is a glaring omission from the 13.2 channel 7200. It can connect 13 speakers at a time but can only process content for 11 speakers at a time.
Good point, especially as the Marantz 8802a includes 13ch processing (altho the Marantz avrs top out at 9ch).
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:39 PM
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Good point, especially as the Marantz 8802a includes 13ch processing (altho the Marantz avrs top out at 9ch).
Nope.

The 8802A is exactly the same as the X7200WA in this regard -- it can process no more than 11 channels at once.

And one Marantz AVR -- the SR7010 -- can process 11 channels at once.

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Old 02-22-2016, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Good point, especially as the Marantz 8802a includes 13ch processing (altho the Marantz avrs top out at 9ch).
No, as Schwa notes the 8802 also tops out at 11 channels simultaneous processing. Remember the 8802 is just the pre-pro version of the 7200, it's effectively the same thing except with balanced outputs instead of amps and an upgraded analog section (Marantz HDAM and all that other stuff). The DSP and processing capabilities is identical between the two.

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Old 02-22-2016, 03:59 PM
 
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Nope.

The 8802A is exactly the same as the X7200WA in this regard -- it can process no more than 11 channels at once.

And one Marantz AVR -- the SR7010 -- can process 11 channels at once.
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No, as Schwa notes the 8802 also tops out at 11 channels simultaneous processing. Remember the 8802 is just the pre-pro version of the 7200, it's effectively the same thing except with balanced outputs instead of amps and an upgraded analog section (Marantz HDAM and all that other stuff). The DSP and processing capabilities is identical between the two.
Sorry, had seen the 8802a described multiple times as a 13.2 processor, and the 7010 as a 9.2 (even on Marantz' site the 7010 is described as a 9.2 unit, had to dig a bit to see the bit about 11.2 processing).
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Old 02-24-2016, 02:55 AM
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Zone4 HDMI Mode

Just came across this bit of info that I thought you 4520CI owners might be interested in learning ....

The Zone4 HDMI output is a stand alone output that simply passes an HDMI source audio/video through to the HDMI sink (ie. either TV or another AVR). The successor flagship model, X7200WA no longer uses the Zone4 HDMI output, but rather instead uses a Zone2 HDMI output which can not only pass the HDMI source audio/video through to the HDMI sink, but also can pass the HDMI PCM 2.0 audio to either the Zone2 speaker posts or Zone 2 pre-outs. Unfortunately, the 4520CI cannot pass PCM 2.0 audio to Zone 2, however, would be able to pass 2.0 audio if an analog cable is also connected from the HDMI source to the 4520CI.

It turns out there is a Special Mode setting (Zone4 HDMI Mode) on the 4520CI that when set to "Follow Zone2" will allow you to pass the Zone 2 HDMI audio/video from the Zone4 HDMI output and in turn allowing you to use the Zone 2 speaker posts/pre-outs for the audio if the HDMI source is also connected with an analog audio cable to the 4520CI.

Zone4 HDMI Mode:
When “Zone 4 HDMI mode” is set to “Follow Zone2”, you can use Zone 4 HDMI Out as Zone 2
- Press the Power button while pressing ENTER and INFO buttons
- Press the Cursor Left/Cursor Right button to select the setting
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Old 02-24-2016, 08:44 AM
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Help please programming remote for TV... Okay, this is not the first time I've done this, but there seems to be something I'm missing on this one. I would like to use the upper right group of buttons on the remote to power my Sony TV on and off and control the input. The instructions are to press and hold the "RC SETUP" button for three seconds, then when "DEVICE" appears, press the remote button for the corresponding device. I have tried the "O" power button, the TV AUDIO, INPUT, and MENU buttons, but instead of the dashes appearing to allow entering the numeric code, "CANCL" shows up and the display resets. I have scoured the pdf manual for some clue how to do this and am about to give up. Could someone please let me know the secret to doing this? Thanks!

Denon AVR-4520ci, Polk Rti12's, Csi5, Rti8 surrounds, some Klipsch subs... Bedroom: Lsi9's on an Onkyo TX-8050
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:26 AM
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After pressing the DEVICE button you have to enter the 5 digit code for the brand of your TV. The codes are listed in the manual.

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Old 02-24-2016, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pndiku View Post
After pressing the DEVICE button you have to enter the 5 digit code for the brand of your TV. The codes are listed in the manual.
Yes, that's what the manual says... and how one would think it would work.

HOWEVER, pressing ANY of the TV device buttons when "PRSET" is flashing causes "CANCL" to immediately appear.

Finding the codes was the easy part.

Denon AVR-4520ci, Polk Rti12's, Csi5, Rti8 surrounds, some Klipsch subs... Bedroom: Lsi9's on an Onkyo TX-8050
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Old 02-24-2016, 09:37 AM
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When prset is flashing, press OK. Then the screen will show five slots for the code.

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Old 02-24-2016, 09:39 AM
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Heres the sequence:
1. Press RC SETUP for 3 seconds
2. Press OK. Screen should show DEVIC
3. Press TV AUDIO
4. Enter the code for your brand of TV

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Old 02-24-2016, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pndiku View Post
Heres the sequence:
1. Press RC SETUP for 3 seconds
2. Press OK. Screen should show DEVIC
3. Press TV AUDIO
4. Enter the code for your brand of TV
Thank you for that. I did get further along than before... but,
the codes available for a Sony TV (listed under "Group 1****" are: 01272, 02713

As soon as I press "0" (zero) when the dashes appear, then the word FAIL appears.
Same thing if I press the "+10" button.

If I just enter 1272 or 2713 then press enter, the word FAIL appears.

Denon AVR-4520ci, Polk Rti12's, Csi5, Rti8 surrounds, some Klipsch subs... Bedroom: Lsi9's on an Onkyo TX-8050
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Old 02-24-2016, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobLee View Post
Thank you for that. I did get further along than before... but,
the codes available for a Sony TV (listed under "Group 1****" are: 01272, 02713

As soon as I press "0" (zero) when the dashes appear, then the word FAIL appears.
Same thing if I press the "+10" button.

If I just enter 1272 or 2713 then press enter, the word FAIL appears.
Not sure what you're looking at but page 212 of the manual has this for Sony TVs:

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Old 02-24-2016, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pndiku View Post
Not sure what you're looking at but page 212 of the manual has this for Sony TVs:

Ah, I see. You looked at the wrong section. You looked at the section for Media Players (page 209).

The column layout can be confusing.
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Old 02-24-2016, 11:30 AM
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Thanks again... I had figured that out just after posting. Blame it on trying to read micro print in the pdf. I looked for Sony after the TV heading. It is working now. Gawd I hate adobe reader.

Denon AVR-4520ci, Polk Rti12's, Csi5, Rti8 surrounds, some Klipsch subs... Bedroom: Lsi9's on an Onkyo TX-8050
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