The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 76 - AVS Forum
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post #2251 of 10214 Old 01-18-2013, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

On a side note I just called to check the availability at my local Best Buy (yes Batpig, La Jolla Best Buy) and she told me: "this unit has been deleted from the system and Denon is definitely discontinuing this unit" I said that's crazy it came out in October and you are sure you checked the 4...5...2...0??? She said definitely it's being discontinued by Denon without a doubt and you might be able to get one if you order it. I assume she meant it was being discontinued at BB not Denon but she was insistent Denon was discontinuing it.

I stopped by one of the local Best Buys (Downers Grove IL South) the other night to see if they had the 4520 and they told me the same thing about it being deleted from their system. The guy I talked to said it may be because it is higher end than what they usually carry at that store and they are shifting all of the more expensive units to their design centers. Chicago was the closest store that had one but I may take a ride down one day next week to check out the design center, he said it was pretty nice.
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post #2252 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

With <$700 AVRs having x32, it will take much more than that for me to spend $2K.
I want this to sound great even with room correction turned off.
Otherwise I'll just save $1300 and get an 818 if all I care about is x32.

I expected the 4520 to sound like my Onkyo and the Denon 4311 I had for a short while. My subjective experience is that both sound and video are better. The question is whether the difference is real or not. I don't want to start using subjectivist terminology in describing the difference and don't know how to objectively describe it. I can say the interface is better, that its nice having an ethernet switch built in, that its nice that it can handle higher bit rates, remote triggering of amps is better, as is the absence of relay clicking and faster HDMI switching, but none of these things is as important to me as the subjectively improved audio and video.
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post #2253 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 04:58 AM
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One subjective observation is that the 4520 has more dynamic range, even when using it as just a pre-pro, which is what I do. One thing that may have contributed to this is that I added a crossover slope of 12db/octave at 60Hz to my mid-woofers (with a miniDSP) to complement the 12db/octave slope that the Denon has at 80Hz. This has reduced the strain on the midwoofers so that they can get louder at frequencies at and above 80Hz without distorting.
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post #2254 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

On a side note I just called to check the availability at my local Best Buy (yes Batpig, La Jolla Best Buy) and she told me: "this unit has been deleted from the system and Denon is definitely discontinuing this unit" I said that's crazy it came out in October and you are sure you checked the 4...5...2...0??? She said definitely it's being discontinued by Denon without a doubt and you might be able to get one if you order it. I assume she meant it was being discontinued at BB not Denon but she was insistent Denon was discontinuing it.

Not likely as it was just released a few months ago. I checked with my local Magnolia store and they indicated it was still an active SKU with no indication of being deleted. In fact, as its replacement may not be released until Oct 2014, it will likely be around quite some time before being discontinued. smile.gif

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post #2255 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The benefit of the GAME setting would likely only apply with a video source. However, the take away should be such that as the note has not changed in several years, the delay issue will have not either with the 4520CI.

That advice may not be needed though with "all ch stereo" mode which was the point of asking people to test. The reason for sync issues is because there is a lack of delay in the other zones (being a straight analog path) and thus it runs slightly ahead of main zone. That's why trying "game mode" (which minimizes video prodessing) or setting the receiver to "direct" mode will reduce or eliminate the sync issues. But that canned note in the Denon manual may not actually be relevant specifically when using this new feature.

I assume that James' hypothesis was (especially because all ch stereo allows digital audio signal) that the processing needed to do a stereo downmix will implicitly delay the signal to the other zone, keeping it in sync with main zone and rendering those other workarounds obsolete when using this function.m so it's still worth somebody testing it.

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post #2256 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^You're welcome. I value DenonLink but it has really not caught on. It certainly does not make a big "day and night" SQ difference. One has to have good equipment downstream, and a good recording upstream. And of course it requires matching Denon player and Denon processor, and both must be high-end to have the DenonLink feature! Even with audiophiles it is almost unknown, perhaps because many of them are analog-oriented or have focused on other areas or approaches, like a player with hi quality DACs and sending analog to the processor.

And there's other considerations as well. The Denon players are not all that popular themselves. Many on the forums prefer Oppo players for their quality construction, SQ, they're generally faster with discs than Denon, have reknowned customer support, get fast and plenty FW updates and some even offer cool new features like using the player's DACs for other sources, including HiRes streaming capabilities, etc.

Another point: there are other places to get SQ improvement from these top Denon AVRs: Audyssey Pro, for ex., has a considerably bigger effect IME than that from DL. Pro improves all sources and allows custom EQ curves. Pro does not have the limitation of requiring a special player, it is easy to learn, but you have to buy the kit $550 and a $150 license for the processor you want to calibrate.

So DenonLink is by no means for everybody. The SQ improvements of DL and Pro are independant but additive.
Edit:
Addendum
To add a bit of quantification to the relative size of the SQ improvements I've experienced: XT->XT32>Pro>DL (all are additive and independant)

Thanks SOM,

I very much agree on SQ improvements. I was curious about DL. I do have the A100 with Audyssey Pro and agree on it's benefits.

Well, back on topic for the actual thread (sorry for being OT). I'm still following this thread just to keep updated on Denon's latest.

Ray

 

"Listen with an open heart and mind."

 

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post #2257 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

That advice may not be needed though with "all ch stereo" mode which was the point of asking people to test. The reason for sync issues is because there is a lack of delay in the other zones (being a straight analog path) and thus it runs slightly ahead of main zone. That's why trying "game mode" (which minimizes video prodessing) or setting the receiver to "direct" mode will reduce or eliminate the sync issues. But that canned note in the Denon manual may not actually be relevant specifically when using this new feature.

I assume that James' hypothesis was (especially because all ch stereo allows digital audio signal) that the processing needed to do a stereo downmix will implicitly delay the signal to the other zone, keeping it in sync with main zone and rendering those other workarounds obsolete when using this function.m so it's still worth somebody testing it.

I just tried this out

1. Using a HDMI signal from the Blu-ray player the signal on the main zone is slightly behind the sound on zone 2. I was playing a music track and using multi channel stereo listening mode. Same situation with stereo mode. This is very obvious when Zone 1 and Zone 2 are in adjacent rooms. My family room is the main zone . The kitchen has another set of speakers that are hooked to zone 2. The family room and kitchen make up one large room.
2. Using an analog signal both signals are not 100% in sync either. The main zone is very slightly behind zone 2 maybe by a few milliseconds. You have to listen very carefully to hear it. In scenario 1 it is very obvious. I tried multi channel stereo and stereo in the main zone. Same result.

Hope this helps.
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post #2258 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes it does help thanks! smile.gif. Did you try switching the video setting for the BD input to "game" to see if that fixes the delay sync issue?

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post #2259 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 10:14 AM
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Batpig,

I just set the main zone to game - multi channel stereo and it does help. I don't detect any signal lag using HDMI or analog.

Thanks!
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post #2260 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I expected the 4520 to sound like my Onkyo and the Denon 4311 I had for a short while. My subjective experience is that both sound and video are better. The question is whether the difference is real or not. I don't want to start using subjectivist terminology in describing the difference and don't know how to objectively describe it. I can say the interface is better, that its nice having an ethernet switch built in, that its nice that it can handle higher bit rates, remote triggering of amps is better, as is the absence of relay clicking and faster HDMI switching, but none of these things is as important to me as the subjectively improved audio and video.

Improved real world usability is also an important factor. Don't be too quick to dismiss that.
These are all good observations and points to the overall quality of the unit.

Was it the Onkyo or the previous Denon that clicked alot with HDMI switching?
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post #2261 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by nsaldanh View Post

I just tried this out

1. Using a HDMI signal from the Blu-ray player the signal on the main zone is slightly behind the sound on zone 2. I was playing a music track and using multi channel stereo listening mode. Same situation with stereo mode. This is very obvious when Zone 1 and Zone 2 are in adjacent rooms. My family room is the main zone . The kitchen has another set of speakers that are hooked to zone 2. The family room and kitchen make up one large room.
2. Using an analog signal both signals are not 100% in sync either. The main zone is very slightly behind zone 2 maybe by a few milliseconds. You have to listen very carefully to hear it. In scenario 1 it is very obvious. I tried multi channel stereo and stereo in the main zone. Same result.

Hope this helps.

Were you using "Multi CH Stereo" or "All Zone Stereo" as these are two different settings? The "All Zone Stereo" will actually pass the HDMI audio from the main zone to Zones 2 and 3.

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post #2262 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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In think he was doing both, those are not mutually exclusive AFAIK. I think it was MultiCH Stereo for the main zone audio with All Ch Stereo passing the audio to the other zone.

He mentioned zone 2 audio from an HDMI input, for which the only way to have it function is the All Ch Stereo function. I think he was indicating that he tested whether changing the main zone surround mode from regular Stereo to MultiCH Stereo had any impact on the delay. At least that's my interpretation.

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post #2263 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Improved real world usability is also an important factor. Don't be too quick to dismiss that.
These are all good observations and points to the overall quality of the unit.

Was it the Onkyo or the previous Denon that clicked alot with HDMI switching?

It was the Onkyo.
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post #2264 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

In think he was doing both, those are not mutually exclusive AFAIK. I think it was MultiCH Stereo for the main zone audio with All Ch Stereo passing the audio to the other zone.

He mentioned zone 2 audio from an HDMI input, for which the only way to have it function is the All Ch Stereo function. I think he was indicating that he tested whether changing the main zone surround mode from regular Stereo to MultiCH Stereo had any impact on the delay. At least that's my interpretation.

Exactly what you said.
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post #2265 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 04:48 PM
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Hi guys
I just opened the boxs this morning on our 4520 and Oppo 103......I have played with it all day and we sit down and actually watched a Time Warner (DVR 8300) taped recording of Last Resort as I needed a break...Wow what a difference from my 7500 Marantz. She looked over at me and said with surprize" it sounds like were at the movies!!..It sounds incredible, the difference is making me feel better about spending the money. Can't wait for a real movie...Now with my problem...I have spent at least 3 hours trying to get my 2nd zone to play. Its "says its on" and the volume goes up and down, but no sound. I tried it with the Odyssey, ( telling it I had surround backs, when really it doesn't) and they play during the test, but no output on the zone itsself. I have it set up with 7.1, ,with heights, but no back surrounds,, 2 subs..My 2nd zone is going into the place where the surround backs would be going if I did indeed have them....What am I doing wrong?
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post #2266 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 04:55 PM
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Audyssey only applies to the main zone. Also only analog, network, or USB audio will pass to Zone 2, unless you use the "All Zone Stereo" surround mode.

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post #2267 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jd smoothie View Post

Audyssey only applies to the main zone. Also only analog, network, or USB audio will pass to Zone 2, unless you use the "All Zone Stereo" surround mode.

Thanks
I just tried to hook up components from the Oppo to the Denon,but maybe the Oppos outputs on the analogs were turned off, but it at any rate, it didn't work. I switched Denon to multi channel stereo on both main and Zone, and that didn't work. Must be "All Zones Stereo" is buried a little deeper. I will get the book out tomorrow and try to find where you change it at, as I'm off to work tomorrow at 5 bells so it will have to wait ..But thanks for the direction
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post #2268 of 10214 Old 01-19-2013, 05:59 PM
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Not likely as it was just released a few months ago. I checked with my local Magnolia store and they indicated it was still an active SKU with no indication of being deleted. In fact, as its replacement may not be released until Oct 2014, it will likely be around quite some time before being discontinued. smile.gif

I know...ridiculous. Still I just ordered my 2520 from La Jolla Best Buy today and she said it is deleted from the system but the sku was active and it can still be ordered. Although there were zero in any of the stores or warehouses around socal so I am thinking best buy is up to something with these, who knows what. I doubt it is Denon's plan and they better wait at least until 2015 to make its replacement since mine will be here on Wednesday, I'd hate to find out they were planning a short production of these units.
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post #2269 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

I know...ridiculous. Still I just ordered my 2520 from La Jolla Best Buy today and she said it is deleted from the system but the sku was active and it can still be ordered. Although there were zero in any of the stores or warehouses around socal so I am thinking best buy is up to something with these, who knows what. I doubt it is Denon's plan and they better wait at least until 2015 to make its replacement since mine will be here on Wednesday, I'd hate to find out they were planning a short production of these units.

With my luck they would be.
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post #2270 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted by ss3740 View Post

Thanks
I just tried to hook up components from the Oppo to the Denon,but maybe the Oppos outputs on the analogs were turned off, but it at any rate, it didn't work. I switched Denon to multi channel stereo on both main and Zone, and that didn't work. Must be "All Zones Stereo" is buried a little deeper. I will get the book out tomorrow and try to find where you change it at, as I'm off to work tomorrow at 5 bells so it will have to wait ..But thanks for the direction

For some reason it's hidden under the Internet Radio settings (p. 80). confused.gif


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post #2271 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 05:51 AM
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I know...ridiculous. Still I just ordered my 2520 from La Jolla Best Buy today and she said it is deleted from the system but the sku was active and it can still be ordered. Although there were zero in any of the stores or warehouses around socal so I am thinking best buy is up to something with these, who knows what. I doubt it is Denon's plan and they better wait at least until 2015 to make its replacement since mine will be here on Wednesday, I'd hate to find out they were planning a short production of these units.

When I bought my 4520 a month ago from an Orlando area Magnolia store they did not have it in stock and had to order it from a local Best Buy warehouse. It was shipped to the store in 2 business days. The Magnolia employee told me that Best Buy is no longer stocking the high end units in the store. They did not even have one to demo. Maybe it's their new business plan -- where they want to conserve their cash and get back to profitability.

There's no high end audio store (that I am aware off) in the Orlando area. As such I end up buying equipment based on reviews here on AVS. In any case most of the Best Buy employees are not adequately trained on all the equipment that they sell, so forums such as AVS are invaluable!
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post #2272 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 06:15 AM
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Hello.
I have a strange issue with my 4520,was trying to connect my new projector x-35 to hdmi 2 output (tv is already on hdmi 1) dual display is already chosen in setup,but when projector starts tv screen goes blank and projector says "no signal" have to remove projector hdmi 2 cable and restart 4520 to go back to normal,if i connect the cable again tv screen goes blank and no signal to proj,what i am doing wrong here : (
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post #2273 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 07:47 AM
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nsaldanh,

Maybe you're looking for the wrong kinds of suppliers.

A quick Web search found several high-end audio/video merchants in Orlando. Their Web sites do seem to be oriented toward providing home installation services, but that's to be expected, since that's where they'd make the most money. That's the case in my area, too: the local A/V merchant where I purchase my A/V equipment also provides home, business, and automobile A/V installation services.

Some I found are
http://www.audiovideoinc.com/
http://www.sounddesign.us/
http://www.outofsightinc.com/

Of course, I have no experience with any of these vendors, but I hope this helps a little.

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post #2274 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T( )( )L View Post

Hello.
I have a strange issue with my 4520,was trying to connect my new projector x-35 to hdmi 2 output (tv is already on hdmi 1) dual display is already chosen in setup,but when projector starts tv screen goes blank and projector says "no signal" have to remove projector hdmi 2 cable and restart 4520 to go back to normal,if i connect the cable again tv screen goes blank and no signal to proj,what i am doing wrong here : (

Does the projector work when the TV is not connected at all?
Have you tried connecting the projector to HDMI 1 and the TV to HDMI 2?

My suspicion is that two displays have different video capabilities and the 4520 is trying to output the least common denominator signal, but neither display device can easily change to accept that signal. In other words, it's an EDID problem.

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post #2275 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 09:13 AM
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The 4520 might be the best receiver in its category but I don’t consider it an audiophile unit. I wish this unit was a pure HDMI switching processor/preamp with clean power supply without any built in amplifiers.
The best way to go is by investing in permanent external power amps matched with your speakers so you don’t need to worry about timber matching and bad surprises every time you’re forced to replace your old receiver when it becomes obsolete
Although I’m using a super clean and powerful amplifier for my main front speakers, I’m considering re hooking my old AVR-5803 to the new AVR 4520 and using it as a seven channel amp through its pure EXT-1 or 2 analogue inputs. Unfortunately, this will not solve the lack of purity coming from the new 4520.

I’m using OPPO-103 for blu ray playback but kept my old 27lbs. Denon Universal DVD-5900 for cleaner SACD payback using the AVR-4520 EXT IN analogue interface. The playback is not as clean as it used to be when I used the AVR-5803 but still better than using the OPPO’s HDMI for SACD playback.
If anyone is using my SACD analogue configuration with the 4520, there is a bug I reported to Denon. The auto switching doesn’t work with EXT IN. In other words, you need to manually set EXT IN instead of AUTO in order to listen to SACD.

Having said all that, I must admit I do love the learning remote control on the 4520. I managed to program all my components including the projector, my side Sampo TV monitor and the light dimmer in my home theater although such components are not listed as an option. There is a trick to make the remote accept learning odd components: First you chose a fake component target on the remote control, then enter an arbitrary code from the Denon user manual for that particular category, then re-program it using the LEARN procedure.

Cheers!
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post #2276 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 09:19 AM
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Projector works fine if i connect it direct to oppo 103 or tv box,tried swapping between hdmi out 1&2 but no luck : ( tv is a sony newer 929 model and proj is the newest jvc one,those should be capable of all kind of pic resulotions i guess,anyone running kind of my setup with no issues??
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post #2277 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 09:23 AM
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Selden,

I''m mostly a DIY when it comes to audio. I have actually used one of these companies at work where they wired up our board room. They do good work, but are very expensive.

I already have my house wired and all I was looking for was to audition receivers and speakers. This company does not stock anything. They have lots of brochures and they make suggestions based on what you are looking for.

They are appropriate for people who want nothing but the best and want someone else to do everything for them. I would rather spend that money on equipment.

Some years ago Tweeter/Sound Advice used to carry a decent line up of equipment. Sadly they went out of business.
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post #2278 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 10:15 AM
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nsaldanh,

Have you considered asking your contact at the company you previously contracted with if they know of any appropriate stores in the area?
Since they don't have a stocked showroom, I'd expect them to be willing to share information. They wouldn't be losing business and would be keeping a customer happy -- potentially leading to additional business for their primary product due to word-of-mouth advertising.

Considering the size of Orlando, I'm very surprised there aren't some quality A/V retailers nearby. We have two in our local area, and our population is much smaller.

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post #2279 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 11:40 AM
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Good ideas Selden. I will check.

I know that they mostly install Integra receivers, Sony Blu Ray , Panasonic TVs and Monitor audio speakers.
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post #2280 of 10214 Old 01-20-2013, 12:45 PM
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Had 4311 and just upgraded to 4520. I thought that my 4311 had independent source adjustments for speaker level. For instance I turned up the sub level for the network audio and left the rest With the mic'ed settings. I don't see this ability with the 4520. Can any one confirm this with the 4311 as mine is gone now?
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