The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 85 - AVS Forum
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post #2521 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 01:21 PM
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Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

That would annoy anyone using an external amp... I assume the adapter has a high-impedance input? If so using the R/L pre outputs should be fine. If it loads the outputs, the preamp outputs are not designed to drive headphones directly. Another issue is that using the preamp outputs probably does not disable the amplifiers so you will have to turn off the speakers, which might disable the preamp outputs (I donot know, depends on the switching in the AVR). It would probably be simplest to just use the adapter; you can get one that is just a small plastic or metal body with two RCAs on one side and a 1/4" TRS plug on the other.
I wonder if I use the 3rd zone channel? Since they are powered wireless headphones this may work since I wouldn't have speaker volume issue on this channel either. But can these zone 3 preouts play the stuff off the HDMI sources? I am still under the assumption this will only play analog sources due to DRM rules.
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post #2522 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 01:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Yes, the "analog only" restriction applies to any of the analog outputs (excepting the pre-outs of course). Note of course that this does include network streams.

The only way to output digital audio to other zones is by activating the "All Zone Stereo" feature, which will broadcast the same stereo audio to ALL zones (including main zone) but does bypass the "analog only" restriction.

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post #2523 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Yes, the "analog only" restriction applies to any of the analog outputs (excepting the pre-outs of course). Note of course that this does include network streams.

The only way to output digital audio to other zones is by activating the "All Zone Stereo" feature, which will broadcast the same stereo audio to ALL zones (including main zone) but does bypass the "analog only" restriction.

This is so frustrating considering this is to prevent us from making analog copies of digital sources. Seems like no one would really want to do this, and if they did, they could easily find another way to get a better copy that is digital anyway.
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post #2524 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 02:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

While the 1.5db volume difference means little in the scheme of things, where the 70wpc vs 110wpc debate will be huge will depend on how efficient (or inefficient) your speakers are.

That said, I do miss the days when the wpc figure was taken seriously by manufacturers. I remember the beefy 5803 tested out at 167wpc x 7 at 4 ohms, where it was rated at 170. Denon certainly put its money where its mouth is, even if the results were 2% off. The 4520 is supposedly rated at 150wpc x 9 channels. I will be very curious to read results of the actual output.

Don't get me wrong, I'd like it if manufacturers would disclose power with all channels driven. I also would be shocked even perplexed if the 4520 managed 150wpc x 7 or even x 5 for that matter considering it's power supply is only 780w. Having said that, based on Home Theater's test of the Marantz 70007 I expect the 4520 to put up decent numbers. In that test they recorded about 70wpc with 7 channels driven with a 670 watt power supply so that's almost 75% efficiency so I suspect 80 wpc or more with 7 channels driven should be possible for the 4520. Incidentally, the 4310 tested by Home Theater had the same power consumption and that managed 105 wpc with 7 channels driven so it could be as high as that too (as hard as a 90% efficiency level is to believe!).

That's pretty much in line with what is probably its closest competitors - The Pioneer Elite SC-68 (I believe it has an 810w power supply) and the Yamaha 3020. The only AVRs in and around the 4520's price range that likely offer more power are the Onkyo AVRs such as the 1010/3010/5010 - then again, I go back to my point of what does it mean in real world terms 1 maybe 2 db? It seems hardly worth worrying about. I suspect all the aforementioned units will likely be able to drive 8 ohm speakers to reference levels in a moderate sized room and probably none will be able to do so with 4 ohm speakers in a large room which is why I don't see the point of getting too excited over this.

BTW, I can't recall ever seeing any lab tests with 7 channels driven at 4 ohms - do you have a link? Such a resource would be quite useful especially if whoever did the test makes a regular practice of such tests with all AVRs reviewed.
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post #2525 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 03:40 PM
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I'm trying to decide if it's worth getting a XPA-3 to power the fronts with all channels being driven on the 4520. Though I've read there's no actual audible difference.
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post #2526 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreamliner View Post

I'm trying to decide if it's worth getting a XPA-3 to power the fronts with all channels being driven on the 4520. Though I've read there's no actual audible difference.

Depends on speakers, room, listening levels, etc.
Sometimes people read about "night and day" differences, but in reality those are not always true.

Lets start with speakers, what are your fronts?
Do they sound "strained" now with music or movies?
if not, you may not need an amp.
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post #2527 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

While the 1.5db volume difference means little in the scheme of things, where the 70wpc vs 110wpc debate will be huge will depend on how efficient (or inefficient) your speakers are.

That said, I do miss the days when the wpc figure was taken seriously by manufacturers. I remember the beefy 5803 tested out at 167wpc x 7 at 4 ohms, where it was rated at 170. Denon certainly put its money where its mouth is, even if the results were 2% off. The 4520 is supposedly rated at 150wpc x 9 channels. I will be very curious to read results of the actual output.

Keep in mind that regardless of how many channels the AVR features, the marketed power rating generally only applies to 2CH and then @ 8-ohm. The 5803 was marketed as 170W @ 8-ohms, not 4-ohms, which means it more likely tested out at closer to 110W into 7CH @ 8-ohms.

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post #2528 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 05:44 PM
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Hello,
I picked up a 4520CI today and must say it makes for a fantastic SSP. This is my first Denon in the HDMI era and was pretty fun to get into it after using 4 Onkyo AVR's in a row. (805, 875, 3007, 3008) Due to my speakers, I do not think I will ever connect Speaker Cables to the binding post, but the same can be said of my past 4 AVR's.

Even though I have an Apple TV, I must say that AirPlay is pretty kewl. The GUI is fantastic and aside from needing to reset my Modem for AirPlay to work, setup could not have been easier. I know it matters not to most, but I am glad to have an AVR that is made in Japan. The last AVR I had that was made there was my former 875.
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post #2529 of 10216 Old 01-29-2013, 09:41 PM
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Just got my new 4520, this is my second one, the first one got a little drop by the loading guy on the way out of my local Best Buy. After my other unit started having problems, I explained to the manager what happened and she ordered me a new one to exchange with mine when it came in. It was really surprisingly cool of them, plus they gave me $50 for my trouble which was nice too. I don't know if any one else has noticed but, it seems to me like Best Buy has gotten better than they used to be. I was really surprised this whole ordeal was relatively painless and easy (helps to have banana plugs).
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post #2530 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nsaldanh View Post

This has happened to my unit once. I unplugged the unit for about two minutes and then it worked. I did not do any type of microprocessor or network reset.

I am also seeing another problem - for the last two days The Denon doesn't show up as an Airplay device. I have to unplug it and plug it back in for it to work. The Apple TV units show up just fine. Anyone else seeing this issue?

Edit: I do see the denon as an airplay device from a PC that is connected to the router using a cable. I can't see it from any wireless device though - iPhone, iPad, laptop wirelessly connected, etc.

Edit2: After searching on an Apple Forum I found this thread :

https://discussions.apple.com/thread/4087880?start=15&tstart=0

A user on that forum suggests enabling IGMP proxy on my router - I happen to have the same router that he has, and that worked. I can now see the Denon from my iPhone.

Odd thing though is that I have not made any changes to my router for a few months and I haven't touched the Denon either. I don't know what changed to cause this problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1000 View Post

I had some irregular freezes too. At first I linked it to the last firmware upgrade. No response at all, not with the remote, not with the power button on the device itself. Only removing the power cable worked. I tried different things (and made some other adjustment too, so I am not completely sure it is only this), but since I turned off Network Always On, it never happened again. Maybe give it a try?

Thanks guys, just to report back.
After I switched off the Network Always On, the problem vanished...
Previously sometimes when I turned on the amp nothing happened and I had to do a power reset...

Hope this helps others. Cheers.
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post #2531 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

Just got my new 4520, this is my second one, the first one got a little drop by the loading guy on the way out of my local Best Buy. After my other unit started having problems, I explained to the manager what happened and she ordered me a new one to exchange with mine when it came in. It was really surprisingly cool of them, plus they gave me $50 for my trouble which was nice too. I don't know if any one else has noticed but, it seems to me like Best Buy has gotten better than they used to be. I was really surprised this whole ordeal was relatively painless and easy (helps to have banana plugs).

This is good to hear and they should promote this fact.

When you drop $2K on something it is not crazy to want to "touch it" first.
It is something I miss from the old HiFi brick and mortar days.
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post #2532 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

Just got my new 4520, this is my second one, the first one got a little drop by the loading guy on the way out of my local Best Buy. After my other unit started having problems, I explained to the manager what happened and she ordered me a new one to exchange with mine when it came in. It was really surprisingly cool of them, plus they gave me $50 for my trouble which was nice too. I don't know if any one else has noticed but, it seems to me like Best Buy has gotten better than they used to be. I was really surprised this whole ordeal was relatively painless and easy (helps to have banana plugs).

Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

This is good to hear and they should promote this fact.

When you drop $2K on something it is not crazy to want to "touch it" first.
It is something I miss from the old HiFi brick and mortar days.

Looks like the new management at Best Buy is changing things around for the better. Healthy return policy's garner customer loyalty.

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post #2533 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by EVT View Post

BTW, I can't recall ever seeing any lab tests with 7 channels driven at 4 ohms - do you have a link? Such a resource would be quite useful especially if whoever did the test makes a regular practice of such tests with all AVRs reviewed.

I don't think the review I read several years ago was from Home Theater magazine, but nonetheless here is their review link. Interestingly, the 5803 tested out at 228wpc x 5 into a 4ohm load before clipping. Given it's class A/B design, I don't think a 167wpc x 7 into a 4ohm load is that far off from what I remember reading. These specs are certainly nothing attainable in today's AVR market.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-5803-av-receiver-dvd-9000-dvd-videodvd-audio-player
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post #2534 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Keep in mind that regardless of how many channels the AVR features, the marketed power rating generally only applies to 2CH and then @ 8-ohm. The 5803 was marketed as 170W @ 8-ohms, not 4-ohms, which means it more likely tested out at closer to 110W into 7CH @ 8-ohms.

See my post above with 4ohm measurements.
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post #2535 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by petetherock View Post



Thanks guys, just to report back.
After I switched off the Network Always On, the problem vanished...
Previously sometimes when I turned on the amp nothing happened and I had to do a power reset...

Hope this helps others. Cheers.

 

Pete, you may recall from my earlier post that turning off the Network Always On setting switches off the 4520's network hub.  If you have anything using the hub that needs network connectivity when the AVR is off, then your solution is not a good one.  For example, my satellite DVR is plugged into the hub.  I was downloading a video-on-demand when I powered off the AVR, and the download stopped.  Just an FYI--it may not affect you.

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post #2536 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 07:47 AM
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Thanks Jerry
Nothing at the moment connected, but I prefer this to the amp freezing up with Network Always On..

Cheers and greetings from a hot, flooded down under...
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post #2537 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 08:36 AM
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Can someone tell me if the Denon 4520 can handle the M&K 750THX speaker package (5.1) bearing in mind i like to crank it up and these speakers are 4 ohms.
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post #2538 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by riverphoenix123 View Post

Can someone tell me if the Denon 4520 can handle the M&K 750THX speaker package (5.1) bearing in mind i like to crank it up and these speakers are 4 ohms.

From the specs they appear to require 200wpc into 4ohms. I would recommend external amplification that is rated to deliver that.
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post #2539 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

From the specs they appear to require 200wpc into 4ohms. I would recommend external amplification that is rated to deliver that.

That's maximum power handling for the speakers, not required minimum power. The M&K site actually lists 150wpc as the max, but more importantly 90.5db sensitivity. You should be fine with the 4520's internal amps.
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post #2540 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 09:38 AM
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The speakers' power handling is rated at 200 watts. That means they won't melt the voice coils at 200 watts. It's not a quantification of what they need in order to use the speakers. If you grasp the idea that a bigger power amp can drive speakers louder, then you know, whether you know you know it or not, that more power = louder and less power = less loud. If any of your content has any dynamics at all, even if you cranked things to the max all the time, you'd never use full power all the time. If you ever turn down, or simply never listen at make-my-ears-ring forever-levels, you actually use something like a watt or two for the vast majority of your listening pleasure with typically sensitive speakers in typical rooms. Dynamic peaks can of course call for much more (a 16 dB-above-average peak needs 40 times the power as the average sound level).

It's usually safe to assume that speakers are compressing by the time they reach half their rated power handling, which means that somewhere around 100 watts the speakers stop getting 1 dB ouder for each 1 dB hotter the signal gets. They're also probably, if still linear, somewhere around 105 to 110 dB at one meter at that level). Thus, reasonably safe to assume that if you don't want to compress the sound, 100 watts is the max power you can actually use with the speakers and have a chance of remaining linear.

I can't find a sensitivity spec on these speakers, so it's not easy to guess what it would take to drive them to reference levels. Others can chime in on whether the Denon's output at 4 ohms has been tested. My guess, based on past testing of higher-in-the-line Denon receivers (let alone the flagship like this) is that it will handle 4 ohm impedance just fine and unless these are very insensitive speakers, will not sufer audible distortion even at high levels with real multichannel content (versus steady state test signals . . .)
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post #2541 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 09:41 AM
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Do you all setup your fronts as small speakers during Audyssey setup, I changed it after setup and lost my Audyssey settings. Is this normal for Audyssey to be so picky about little changes.
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post #2542 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 09:44 AM
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!!! Question regarding Channel Re-assignment !!!



If one has a stand alone 3 channel amp which would be used for the LCR, can the 4520's internal LCR amps be reassigned to the Wide or Height channels so one can have a true 11.1 channel setup?

Thanks!

...true in the sense that the 4520 can provide an 11.1 sound field via DSX or DTS NeoX...

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post #2543 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

Do you all setup your fronts as small speakers during Audyssey setup, I changed it after setup and lost my Audyssey settings. Is this normal for Audyssey to be so picky about little changes.

 

Regardless of what you set before running the Audyssey calibration, Audyssey ignores it and resets both the trims and the distances.  If Audyssey sets your mains to large, and you change them to small, or alter the crossover values, this should not cause you to lose your settings, or for Audyssey to be disabled.  Perhaps if you would provide a little more information, we could help your trouble-shoot.

 

And BTW, do you run a network save after a successful calibration?  This would allow you to recover, rather than having to re-run the calibrations.

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post #2544 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rms8 View Post

!!! Question regarding Channel Re-assignment !!!



If one has a stand alone 3 channel amp which would be used for the LCR, can the 4520's internal LCR amps be reassigned to the Wide or Height channels so one can have a true 11.1 channel setup?

Thanks!

...true in the sense that the 4520 can provide an 11.1 sound field via DSX or DTS NeoX...

 

Yes, two amps can be re-assigned (the center channel amp cannot).  Simply go to the Amp Assign menu, select "11.1", and set the external speakers to "Fronts".  This allows the two released amps to run the heights (not the wides).

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post #2545 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

The speakers' power handling is rated at 200 watts. That means they won't melt the voice coils at 200 watts. It's not a quantification of what they need in order to use the speakers. If you grasp the idea that a bigger power amp can drive speakers louder, then you know, whether you know you know it or not, that more power = louder and less power = less loud. If any of your content has any dynamics at all, even if you cranked things to the max all the time, you'd never use full power all the time. If you ever turn down, or simply never listen at make-my-ears-ring forever-levels, you actually use something like a watt or two for the vast majority of your listening pleasure with typically sensitive speakers in typical rooms. Dynamic peaks can of course call for much more (a 16 dB-above-average peak needs 40 times the power as the average sound level).

It's usually safe to assume that speakers are compressing by the time they reach half their rated power handling, which means that somewhere around 100 watts the speakers stop getting 1 dB ouder for each 1 dB hotter the signal gets. They're also probably, if still linear, somewhere around 105 to 110 dB at one meter at that level). Thus, reasonably safe to assume that if you don't want to compress the sound, 100 watts is the max power you can actually use with the speakers and have a chance of remaining linear.

I can't find a sensitivity spec on these speakers, so it's not easy to guess what it would take to drive them to reference levels. Others can chime in on whether the Denon's output at 4 ohms has been tested. My guess, based on past testing of higher-in-the-line Denon receivers (let alone the flagship like this) is that it will handle 4 ohm impedance just fine and unless these are very insensitive speakers, will not sufer audible distortion even at high levels with real multichannel content (versus steady state test signals . . .)

 

JHAz, thanks for the objective comments.  It is a breath of fresh air amid all this gloom-and-doom amplifier power discussion that has been polluting the thread.

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post #2546 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

It's usually safe to assume that speakers are compressing by the time they reach half their rated power handling, which means that somewhere around 100 watts the speakers stop getting 1 dB ouder for each 1 dB hotter the signal gets. They're also probably, if still linear, somewhere around 105 to 110 dB at one meter at that level). Thus, reasonably safe to assume that if you don't want to compress the sound, 100 watts is the max power you can actually use with the speakers and have a chance of remaining linear.
A quibble: if they're compressing, then, by definition, they're no longer linear.

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post #2547 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 11:03 AM
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The center channel can't be driven from an external amp? I will have 9 speakers (wides) and I have 7 channels of external amplification. Can I use 2 of the internal amps in the 4520 plus my 7 external channels? I would really prefer to have the external amps drive the LCR.
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post #2548 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 235 View Post

The center channel can't be driven from an external amp? I will have 9 speakers (wides) and I have 7 channels of external amplification. Can I use 2 of the internal amps in the 4520 plus my 7 external channels? I would really prefer to have the external amps drive the LCR.

Of course the center can be driven by an external amp, mine is doing so right now.
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post #2549 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 235 View Post

The center channel can't be driven from an external amp? I will have 9 speakers (wides) and I have 7 channels of external amplification. Can I use 2 of the internal amps in the 4520 plus my 7 external channels? I would really prefer to have the external amps drive the LCR.
Every speaker output has a corresponding pre-amp output. Jerry was referring to not being able to reassign the internal amp for the Center channel to another purpose. You can do LCR on external amps just fine.
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post #2550 of 10216 Old 01-30-2013, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EVT View Post

BTW, I can't recall ever seeing any lab tests with 7 channels driven at 4 ohms - do you have a link? Such a resource would be quite useful especially if whoever did the test makes a regular practice of such tests with all AVRs reviewed.

I don't think the review I read several years ago was from Home Theater magazine, but nonetheless here is their review link. Interestingly, the 5803 tested out at 228wpc x 5 into a 4ohm load before clipping. Given it's class A/B design, I don't think a 167wpc x 7 into a 4ohm load is that far off from what I remember reading. These specs are certainly nothing attainable in today's AVR market.

http://www.hometheater.com/content/denon-avr-5803-av-receiver-dvd-9000-dvd-videodvd-audio-player


Amidst all the warm-and-fuzzy nostalgia about the beef in the 5803, it's worth actually reading the review and noting the following about that 4ohm test:
Quote:
Driving all five channels into 4ohm, the Denon delivered 228Wpc before clipping. At this point, however, the review sample failed. Its front panel continued to glow, but no signal was passed to the outputs. Attempts to revive it, including replacing accessible fuses, were unsuccessful. MF experienced no problems with this unit under normal use, but I recommend caution when mating the AVR-5803 to speakers having a nominal rated impedance of less than 6ohm.


I'm not going to argue that the 5803 doesn't have a better amp section than a modern unit like the 4520, but I think the point is that if you REALLY need extra power, you need external amplification.

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