The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 88 - AVS Forum
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post #2611 of 10618 Old 01-31-2013, 08:03 PM
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Little confused about this also. In the past with my other receivers, I have always changed Audyssey xover settings to usually 80hz. Im assuming that this Denon doesnt mean that you cant change xover settings? Can anyone confirm that you can change xover settings, and still use these functions?

"If you change the speaker settings after performing Audyssey® Setup, it will not be possible
to set Audyssey MultEQ® XT 32, Audyssey Dynamic EQ® and Audyssey Dynamic Volume®"
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post #2612 of 10618 Old 01-31-2013, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by jevans64 View Post

If you have a back wall, these have a pretty good WAF. I have a pair of these behind my seating. I even added 30" of wall just so I could install them.
]
No wall plus vaulted ceilings so I am going to need some of those cute little tiny speakers if i want a back channel.
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post #2613 of 10618 Old 01-31-2013, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

Little confused about this also. In the past with my other receivers, I have always changed Audyssey xover settings to usually 80hz. Im assuming that this Denon doesnt mean that you cant change xover settings? Can anyone confirm that you can change xover settings, and still use these functions?

"If you change the speaker settings after performing Audyssey® Setup, it will not be possible
to set Audyssey MultEQ® XT 32, Audyssey Dynamic EQ® and Audyssey Dynamic Volume®"

You just go into speaker and set them to small then you can change. Batpig's handy guide that can help you understand more about this is useful.: http://batpigworld.com/fadq.html#audyssey

Also I can confirm that it will not mess up your audyssey settings, however I would go into your computer interface and save everything first. It erased my audyssey availability after making these changes on my last 4520 that was dropped. I just changed them all to small 80Hz on this new 4520 and had no audyssey problems at all.
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post #2614 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 03:53 AM
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post #2615 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 04:08 AM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

In the menu before running Audyssey, do you have to assign amp sections to speakers and setup channel select for each speaker, in my case 5 speakers and two subs.

thanks

The speaker default setting works, but the Sub setting may have to be changed to "2 speakers" if the 2nd sub is not detected.

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post #2616 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nezff View Post

Little confused about this also. In the past with my other receivers, I have always changed Audyssey xover settings to usually 80hz. Im assuming that this Denon doesnt mean that you cant change xover settings? Can anyone confirm that you can change xover settings, and still use these functions?

"If you change the speaker settings after performing Audyssey® Setup, it will not be possible
to set Audyssey MultEQ® XT 32, Audyssey Dynamic EQ® and Audyssey Dynamic Volume®"

Although not worded very well, this simply means that when you "add" additional speakers after running Audyssey, you will need to run Audyssey again to EQ these new speakers. As with most every (if not all) AVR/pre-pro with Audyssey installed, Audyssey only passes the -3db roll off point to the AVR/pre-pro and the AVR/pre-pro makes all of the settings most would refer to as the "Audyssey settings" (ie. LARGE/SMALL, crossover, distance, volume) so changing any of these settings after running Audyssey has no impact on the actual Audyssey EQ curve as Audyssey never set them in the first place. smile.gif

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post #2617 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by avatar9 View Post

No wall plus vaulted ceilings so I am going to need some of those cute little tiny speakers if i want a back channel.

Another option?
I have a couple sets of these that I quite like (in my vaulted ceiling):

http://www.miragespeakers.com/surround-speakers/?sku=OMNICAN-OC-65
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post #2618 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by FlatRocky View Post

Any one has success using direct airplay on this receiver? i had this receiver showed up once in the airplay speaker list but never after. i called Denon and LOL it was an experience with the worst attitude problem that i got from an on line help person, and will never call denon again. and will think twice before buy Denon LOL.
i tried different solutions including IGMP on/off but nothing is working with WNDR3700 netgear router. Denon is hard wired and it is on the network. i can see rest of the airplay Speakers but not Denon.
Thank you in advance.

I'm betting the person you talked to was Chad. I talked to him also, He takes your feet out from under you with his condescending, degrading, sarcastic,and very unprofessional attitude.I have to say, he is the worst representative from ANY company,that I have ever talked to.They need to record this guys phone calls...... On the flip side, I have also talked to Tony,which in every way was just the opposite.
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post #2619 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

I just looked inside my 12 years old Denon AVR-5600 that I owned before getting the 5803. It does have a toroidal transformer!… Pretty depressing when I look at my 4520…
I bet my 15 year old Denon AVC-3030 that I don’t possess anymore came with a toroidal transformer as well.

It is 2013.
A toroidal transformer isn't a prerequisite anymore for a good amp design.

Also, thank the EU for the mandatory green initiative for the quick advancement of switching power supplies everywhere. wink.gif

If you want an example of how far switching power supplies coupled with digital amp design can go, do a search on NCore.cool.gif

Are you really hearing a difference?
http://youtu.be/G-lN8vWm3m0
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post #2620 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

I just looked inside my 12 years old Denon AVR-5600 that I owned before getting the 5803. It does have a toroidal transformer!… Pretty depressing when I look at my 4520…
I bet my 15 year old Denon AVC-3030 that I don’t possess anymore came with a toroidal transformer as well.

I have a Pioneer Elite and am planning an upgrade next month to a 4520. I also have a friend that has a 5803 and wants to upgrade to a 4520 as well. Coming from a 5600 and 5803, can you provide your personal feedback of how you are liking the 4520 for sound quality?
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post #2621 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

I have a Pioneer Elite and am planning an upgrade next month to a 4520. I also have a friend that has a 5803 and wants to upgrade to a 4520 as well. Coming from a 5600 and 5803, can you provide your personal feedback of how you are liking the 4520 for sound quality?

As you can tell I’m a Denon freak. My critique of them is considered a constructive one.
The main reason I replaced my AVR-5803 with the 4520ci was to fix the OPPO-103 lip-sync problem which it did graciously.
With all my criticism I still consider the 4520ci the best in its category especially if you’re upgrading from the same level. I consider its sound more transparent then the 5803 but its pre amp section is less pure.
For my two main channels, I’ve always used a Yamaha MX-1 Amp (bi-amp) which matches the transparency of the 4520 even better and allows me to bi amp the center channel from the 4520’s two unused front mains.
My main problem with the 4520 is the hum I hear when I put my ear against it and the speakers hiss when at idle at max volume. I never had such problems with my old toroidal transformers Denon. And for the purest, you’ll find that the tuner and the internet radio do leak onto other input selections while at idle/max volume because they’re always active in the background even when you change input selection. Denon never fixed this problem, that’s why, in my early years, I replaced my first Denon AVR with an AVC-3030 to get rid of the built in active/ leaky tuner. I was forced to spend more money investing in an external Denon RVS FM tuner so I can turn it on and off as I pleased.

On a side note, I learned the hard way to avoid using the receiver’s internal amps to power my two front speakers. The Yamaha MX-1 (630 watts@ 2 ohms times 2) saved me a lot of money since I used to blow my pricy titanium tweeters on my good old 5 way JBL HP720 4ohms hungry but sweet speakers due to clipping no matter how powerful AVR might be.
Presently, I’m using Energy Veritas V2.4i Loudspeakers with the MX-1 and very happy with the set up.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/energy_veritas_v24i.htm
http://stereonomono.blogspot.com/2012/05/yamaha-mx-1-mx-2-19931994.html
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post #2622 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 01:16 PM
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<< My main problem with the 4520 is the hum I hear when I put my ear against it and the speakers hiss when at idle at max volume. >>

IMO, this is a poor way to evaluate audio fidelity. MOST amps will have hiss at MAX volume with your ear up against the speaker. The Denon could simply have a different gain setting than your previous receivers and/or more headroom. Or you speakers could be more or less sensitive.

speaking Denon receivers have improved (generally speaking) each year in terms of THD, S/NR, separation, etc.

That being said there is definately a chance your 5803 did sound better. I just think ears up against a speaker is a poor way to evaluate wither there is an improvement.

-Brian


P.S. You want noisy, hook up an Emotiva amp biggrin.gif

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post #2623 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post



P.S. You want noisy, hook up an Emotiva amp biggrin.gif

 

Odd. I have four Emotiva amps and even with my prepro at max volume and my ear wedged right into my M&K S150s, there is no noise at all. Not 'very little' noise, or 'almost no noise'. No noise. I wonder which of your components was causing the noise that you heard when you were using an Emotiva amp?

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post #2624 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Odd. I have four Emotiva amps and even with my prepro at max volume and my ear wedged right into my M&K S150s, there is no noise at all. Not 'very little' noise, or 'almost no noise'. No noise. I wonder which of your components was causing the noise that you heard when you were using an Emotiva amp?

+1 Same here.
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post #2625 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post

<< My main problem with the 4520 is the hum I hear when I put my ear against it and the speakers hiss when at idle at max volume. >>

IMO, this is a poor way to evaluate audio fidelity. MOST amps will have hiss at MAX volume with your ear up against the speaker. The Denon could simply have a different gain setting than your previous receivers and/or more headroom. Or you speakers could be more or less sensitive.

speaking Denon receivers have improved (generally speaking) each year in terms of THD, S/NR, separation, etc.

That being said there is definately a chance your 5803 did sound better. I just think ears up against a speaker is a poor way to evaluate wither there is an improvement.

-Brian


P.S. You want noisy, hook up an Emotiva amp biggrin.gif

My home theater is very quite and the hiss @ max is audible through the room.
I limited the volume control on the 5420 volume for that purpose.
As far as the internal hum, it used to be audible within 4 feet from the receiver until I did a little surgery but I know it’s there and that’s what bothers me most.
Once again I’m not badmouthing Denon but my expectation out of Denon is usually higher that most others.
As a matter of fact, I kept my old Universal Denon DVD-5900 for SACD playback because I was very disappointed with OPPO’s audio processing which makes its own hiss has well.
I used to love demonstrating my reference SACDs on my AVR-5803 with the DVD-5900; I’d set its volume at Zero decibels and until the loud and tight music blasted, there were absolutely no hiss or any noise in the room. So the audience had no idea the CD was already turning and without notice, they jump at first note. Finally I started warning them in case someone had a heart issue…
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post #2626 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 02:58 PM
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I don't know what's wrong with your setup but my room is quite quiet too (and I have an Oppo 93) and there is no hiss or hum, and I use the aforementioned Emotiva amps.
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post #2627 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 03:58 PM
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Hi guys
I just opened the boxs this morning on our 4520 and Oppo 103......I have played with it all day and we sit down and actually watched a Time Warner (DVR 8300) taped recording of Last Resort as I needed a break...Wow what a difference from my 7500 Marantz. She looked over at me and said with surprize" it sounds like were at the movies!!..It sounds incredible, the difference is making me feel better about spending the money. Can't wait for a real movie...Now with my problem...I have spent at least 3 hours trying to get my 2nd zone to play. Its "says its on" and the volume goes up and down, but no sound. I tried it with the Odyssey, ( telling it I had surround backs, when really it doesn't) and they play during the test, but no output on the zone itsself. I have it set up with 7.1, ,with heights, but no back surrounds,, 2 subs..My 2nd zone is going into the place where the surround backs would be going if I did indeed have them....What am I doing wrong?


Several of you have tried to help me get theses Zones to work. I threw in the towel yesterday and called Denon .We went through several test (and a couple different service reps) and the problem all along has been nether Zones will put out any power.They are broke....I have to give a big plug to both Mike @ AV Science and Denon...Within 24 hours they have me a new unit on the way and my old one is on the way back..... Impressive. I find it interesting that they told me the Zones are all digital capable and you should not have to hook up analog to get them to work.
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post #2628 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 04:35 PM
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The only surround mode in which digital to the Zones 2/3 is possible is "All Zone Stereo". Indicating otherwise means they are thinking of the 4311CI and not the 4520CI.

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post #2629 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 04:54 PM
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It'd be interesting to find out if the people who are having audible hiss problems have better high-frequency hearing than the people who don't, or if there are substantial differences in the noise levels being produced by their electronics. (I could easily be persuaded that a combination of both effects is responsible.)

Are any of you willing to invest the time and (small amount of) money to actually measure your listening environments? Or have you already done so?

I'm sure the people contributing to the new REW thread would be glad to help.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

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post #2630 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 05:24 PM
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Really surprised people are hearing hiss or gain noise on this 4520. I just confirmed, for what it's worth that even past zero into plus territory, I have no hum, hiss or anything before the music starts. The 4520 is silent in my experience. Could be that if you have lower ohm rated speakers the THD is higher so you hear more hiss. Still would be surprised because mine is so quiet and I don't remember this on my returned 4520 unit either, although I did not check it specifically for this.
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post #2631 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadClams View Post

Another option?
I have a couple sets of these that I quite like (in my vaulted ceiling):

http://www.miragespeakers.com/surround-speakers/?sku=OMNICAN-OC-65

Thanks for the suggestion. Those look pretty cool, unfortunately my ceiling is angled up to the right (six foot rise from L to R) if you face the front of the room. I am sure I will find something good soon, I would like to use the same thing for front height speakers as well so it should be a tough search to find something just right that my wife can live with.
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post #2632 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I don't know what's wrong with your setup but my room is quite quiet too (and I have an Oppo 93) and there is no hiss or hum, and I use the aforementioned Emotiva amps.

The hiss varies depending on the Odyssey set up on the Denon. It becomes more pronounced when I turn the OPPO on.
I bought the OPPO before the AVR-4520 and that was the first time I realized the degradation in audio quality v.s. the Denon DVD-5900. I had both the OPPO-103 and the DVD-5900 hooked to the AVR-5803 through its analogue EXT1 and EXT2 where it was very easy to switch between both players and compare.
Then the AVR-4520 came to fix the OPPO lip-sync problem which it did but the compromise lied in more hiss, internal vibration and of course less power.
BTW, I highly recommend checking your audio/video sync using “Disney wow world of wonder blu-ray”. It’s such a great tool to nail that sync issue. I fixed my problem by setting the 4520 HDMI lip sync to auto AND adjusting the audio delay by minus 30ms. The audio out of phase was about plus 180ms. That’s a LOT! You may also leave the HDMI lip-sync off and manually adjust the audio delay to about minus 180ms.

Again, with all fairness to all, my experiments may be considered more like a lab test not necessarily audible during normal playback except for the lip-sync now that we’ve discussed it…

Note: Used same cables for all setups.
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post #2633 of 10618 Old 02-01-2013, 09:21 PM
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Had a hum / hiss issue, which I traced to the TV. When I turned it off, no issues.
Through a process of trial and error, I got rid of this.
Plugged in and out the power cords, and use the same power socket from the wall helped.
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post #2634 of 10618 Old 02-02-2013, 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

I highly recommend checking your audio/video sync using “Disney wow world of wonder blu-ray”. It’s such a great tool to nail that sync issue. I fixed my problem by setting the 4520 HDMI lip sync to auto AND adjusting the audio delay by minus 30ms. The audio out of phase was about plus 180ms. That’s a LOT!
The 2 disc WOW worth it then? My sync is set at 150 (by eye). And seems to be pretty good.
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post #2635 of 10618 Old 02-02-2013, 02:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bghead8che View Post

<< My main problem with the 4520 is the hum I hear when I put my ear against it and the speakers hiss when at idle at max volume. >>

IMO, this is a poor way to evaluate audio fidelity. MOST amps will have hiss at MAX volume with your ear up against the speaker. The Denon could simply have a different gain setting than your previous receivers and/or more headroom. Or you speakers could be more or less sensitive.

speaking Denon receivers have improved (generally speaking) each year in terms of THD, S/NR, separation, etc.

That being said there is definately a chance your 5803 did sound better. I just think ears up against a speaker is a poor way to evaluate wither there is an improvement.

-Brian


P.S. You want noisy, hook up an Emotiva amp biggrin.gif

My home theater is very quite and the hiss @ max is audible through the room.
I limited the volume control on the 5420 volume for that purpose.
As far as the internal hum, it used to be audible within 4 feet from the receiver until I did a little surgery but I know it’s there and that’s what bothers me most.
Once again I’m not badmouthing Denon but my expectation out of Denon is usually higher that most others.
As a matter of fact, I kept my old Universal Denon DVD-5900 for SACD playback because I was very disappointed with OPPO’s audio processing which makes its own hiss has well.
I used to love demonstrating my reference SACDs on my AVR-5803 with the DVD-5900; I’d set its volume at Zero decibels and until the loud and tight music blasted, there were absolutely no hiss or any noise in the room. So the audience had no idea the CD was already turning and without notice, they jump at first note. Finally I started warning them in case someone had a heart issue…

 

Any modern system with that level of audible noise has a problem somewhere. Something is broken or not working to spec or there is some weird mismatch between components, but something is wrong. Occasionally, very, very sensitive speakers (101dB/w/m types for example - think some horn designs) can reveal some background hiss when the volume is maxed out on the AVR/amps and ears are placed close to the speakers - but normally you should not hear hiss 'through the room' or at the MLP at all. If you can, then you need to do some troubleshooting to try to discover the cause and the source. Same thing with hum. 

 

I have an Oppo 93 and again, it is 100% silent when there is no music coming from it. 100%. If yours is hissing it is either faulty, or there is a problem in your setup or system.

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post #2636 of 10618 Old 02-02-2013, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I don't know what's wrong with your setup but my room is quite quiet too (and I have an Oppo 93) and there is no hiss or hum, and I use the aforementioned Emotiva amps.

 

Exactly the same here. He needs to start some troubleshooting.

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post #2637 of 10618 Old 02-02-2013, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

It'd be interesting to find out if the people who are having audible hiss problems have better high-frequency hearing than the people who don't, or if there are substantial differences in the noise levels being produced by their electronics. (I could easily be persuaded that a combination of both effects is responsible.)

Are any of you willing to invest the time and (small amount of) money to actually measure your listening environments? Or have you already done so?

I'm sure the people contributing to the new REW thread would be glad to help.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

 

Hi Selden,

 

I have some age-related HF hearing loss for sure. But my OmniMic doesn't ;)  And neither will my UMM-6 and REW setup when the mic arrives :)  You are right - the best way to be sure what is happening is to measure. There is just no audible, or measurable, hiss, hum or noise here - and that is how I would expect modern electronics to behave.

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post #2638 of 10618 Old 02-02-2013, 03:22 AM
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Who knows, he may have horn tweeters. I do know my system passes the "ear to the tweeter" test which even with slight hearing loss would reveal hiss. These components have close to a 100db signal to noise ratio so there should be no hiss.
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post #2639 of 10618 Old 02-02-2013, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Selden,

I have some age-related HF hearing loss for sure.

Virtually all of us do after the age of 25 which is why the high school kids sometimes use the Mosquito Ring tone (17Khz) as their teachers cannot hear it any longer. smile.gif

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