The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 91 - AVS Forum
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post #2701 of 9160 Old 02-03-2013, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by schwegs99 View Post

the only place i get a real good comparison without having to read page after page to find someone comparing them is...
Yup, those are good finds irt comparing those units. I doubt you'll find any more detailed than Joe's. So what's your take on what the subtle SQ differences he reports might mean to you, how much more will the 8801 cost you and how does that fit into your upgrade budget?

Oh, if you are pursuing top SQ, take a look at investing in Audyssey Pro. Its $750 cost gives reliable not-so-subtle bang-for-the-buck.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #2702 of 9160 Old 02-03-2013, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Yup, those are good finds irt comparing those units. I doubt you'll find any more detailed than Joe's. So what's your take on what the subtle SQ differences he reports might mean to you, how much more will the 8801 cost you and how does that fit into your upgrade budget?

Oh, if you are pursuing top SQ, take a look at investing in Audyssey Pro. Its $750 cost gives reliable not-so-subtle bang-for-the-buck.

I have found some nice used ones around $2600-$2800. I currently have the avr-3310ci and im going to assume that moving up to the 4 series of Denon would be a big difference in SQ/PQ and then going even further to the Marantz 8 series i would see a bit better performance from the Denon 4 series.

Joe does go into good detail on each unit, which is what i like about his reviews. My budget was 4520 range, but getting a used Marantz for just a few more bucks i think would be worth it.

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post #2703 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 02:38 AM
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The 3310CI only uses MultEQ (same version used by the current lower level non-CI XX13 models, 1613 and 1913) so yes. you should definitely expect a bump in sound quality going to XT32 using either the 4520CI or the 8801. Also note that the street price from some vendors (eg. AVS Sales) for the 4520CI is about a grand less than what you're seeing for a used 8801.

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post #2704 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Did you try checking out the audio leak from the internet radio into other quiet sources?

I’m not surprised about this issue because I complained about it over 12 years ago and Denon rep acknowledge it with the excuse that the FM tuner is always active and suggested I should tune to a non broadcasting station before I select another source.

What surprises me though, the fact that no one else has noticed this issue with the 4520.
May I ask you folks to try it out? Tune in an active FM station or an Internet radio station; switch to non active source “DVD” or “Blu ray”, crank the volume to max and find out if you can hear the hiss/audio leak from the active radio.
Thanks!


I found hiss coming from an iPod connected via USB for power to the receiver with the stereo mini plug also connected. Removing the USB connection from the receiver and plugigng it into a power brick resolved the hissing problem.
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post #2705 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwegs99 View Post

Denon avr-4520ci vs Marantz AV8801.

What would be the difference be (the obviously, the price, no int. amp on marantz)?

My heart was set on the AVR-4520ci until i started looking and saw the Marantz and was reading some reviews.

Opinions on either?

There is a thread you can search for on AVS "4520 vs 8801" that primarily discusses sound quality differences. From my understanding, when using the 4520 in preamp mode only, there are no sonic differences between either unit. All the audio/video inputs are the same.
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post #2706 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 10:03 AM
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^Hmmm...does your 4520 have balanced XLR preouts? wink.gif

If this is the thread you mean, there's precious little there; 1 brief anectdotal report of no SQ diff from 4520->8801

I think perhaps the price diff $ is better applied to Audyssey Pro on a 4520 (or 4311 for that matter).

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #2707 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 10:42 AM
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Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by schwegs99 View Post

Denon avr-4520ci vs Marantz AV8801.

What would be the difference be (the obviously, the price, no int. amp on marantz)?

My heart was set on the AVR-4520ci until i started looking and saw the Marantz and was reading some reviews.

Opinions on either?

Maybe you could have a look on this post. wink.gif

Hugo
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post #2708 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Hmmm...does your 4520 have balanced XLR preouts? wink.gif

If this is the thread you mean, there's precious little there; 1 brief anectdotal report of no SQ diff from 4520->8801

I think perhaps the price diff $ is better applied to Audyssey Pro on a 4520 (or 4311 for that matter).

No it doesn't have XLR pre-outs but they aren't needed for usual cable lengths.
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post #2709 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 11:28 AM
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Hi,

I have a Denon 4520 and I'm enjoying it so far, however I have 3 problems!

My devices:
Panasonic 65VT30E
Denon AVR-4520
PS3
HTPC
Dreambox DM800HD


Everything is connected to the Denon AVR and the Denon is connected to the TV via an HDMI cable to HDMI 1 port.

Before I had the Denon, everything was connected to the TV directly and I had no problems like the ones I am about to explain.

Problem 1 - PS3
I have the PS3 setup on the GAME port of the Denon. The problem is whenever I switch on the PS3 and switch to GAME input, nothing comes on the TV except a black screen. An image can be seen for 1 second and then it's black. As far as I know, no sound is coming through either.
I tried 2 different ports on Denon and 2 HDMI cables.
I connected the PS3 to the TV directly and set the video to 1080i instead of 1080p and then reconnected everything through the Denon. This worked fine in both video and sound, however I want 1080p.
Any idea what the problem is exactly?

Problem 2 - HTPC
My HTPC is running XBMC as a frontend and everything is played through TMT5.
The problem is with TMT5. When I skip forward or go back, or rewind or fast forward, etc... it's like the signal is lost for a second and the TV kind of resets showing the input, the frame rate, etc... it's like when you changed input, however it does this on the actions described before.
It comes back to TMT5 and continues plying fine, however it's annoying... it's like it's losing the signal for a second.
Any ideas?

Problem 3 - HTPC
This is similar to Problem 2... whenever I am watching a movie on TMT5, if I change input to say for example the Dreambox and then back to the HTPC (blu-ray port on denon) I find TMT5 crashed and not responding, so I have to close it and start the movie again.
Any ideas here?

I am really lost on these so any help is appreciated!

Thanks

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post #2710 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 11:33 AM
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^^
1. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1334369/the-official-denon-avr-xx12-model-owners-thread/0_100#user_L18

2/3. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1334369/the-official-denon-avr-xx12-model-owners-thread/0_100#user_L12

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post #2711 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Hmmm...does your 4520 have balanced XLR preouts? wink.gif

If this is the thread you mean, there's precious little there; 1 brief anectdotal report of no SQ diff from 4520->8801

I think perhaps the price diff $ is better applied to Audyssey Pro on a 4520 (or 4311 for that matter).

Can you tell me what sonic benefits there are of XLRs vs unbalanced under 12 feet? Oh wait, that's right - none. I'm not sure about everyone else, but typically my amps or no more than 3-6 feet away from my processor in my rack.
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post #2712 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nameless_87 View Post

Hi,

I have a Denon 4520 and I'm enjoying it so far, however I have 3 problems!

My devices:
Panasonic 65VT30E
Denon AVR-4520
PS3
HTPC
Dreambox DM800HD


Everything is connected to the Denon AVR and the Denon is connected to the TV via an HDMI cable to HDMI 1 port.

Before I had the Denon, everything was connected to the TV directly and I had no problems like the ones I am about to explain.

Problem 2 - HTPC
My HTPC is running XBMC as a frontend and everything is played through TMT5.
The problem is with TMT5. When I skip forward or go back, or rewind or fast forward, etc... it's like the signal is lost for a second and the TV kind of resets showing the input, the frame rate, etc... it's like when you changed input, however it does this on the actions described before.
It comes back to TMT5 and continues plying fine, however it's annoying... it's like it's losing the signal for a second.
Any ideas?

Frankly I have found it much easier, reliable, and potentially less expensive to buy a BDPlayer and play DVDs and BDs through it rather than using a program on an HTPC. This is not to say an HTPC isn't useful for playing many music and video files just that for DVDs and especially BDs it has been better for me to use a stand alone player. I have found PowerDVD to be more reliable than TMT5. I do not use either except when watching a DVD/BD on my computer's monitor such as at 3am when I watch using headphones since my neighbors aren't up yet. For files other than BD's and DVDs I tend to use foobar or VLC. I doubt I'll ever pay for another upgrade to either PDVD or TMT since neither is nearly as reliable as my Oppo and the repeating cost of upgrades has made them more expensive than an inexpensive stand alone BD player.
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post #2713 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Anyone who suspects this might be the case can inspect the corrections being applied by Audyssey by going into the menu and selecting Speakers/Audyssey Calibration/Check Results/EQ.  A normal calibration should show a gradual roll-off in the high frequencies.  If the EQ curves show an increase in high frequencies, it is a possible indication of something wrong that Audyssey is trying to over-compensate for.  It might be worth looking at.

Just to be clear for those reading along, it's important to note that (unlike with the Pro kit) the EQ curves in the "Parameter Check" area are the compensations applied by MultEQ, not the actual "after" EQ curve. So you would only see a "gradual roll-off in the high frequencies" if your speakers were measured fairly flat to begin with. If you have very live speakers/room you could see a lot of cut in the high freq's to achieve the Audyssey "reference" curve, and if you have a relatively dead room and/or mellow speakers (and/or if the speakers aren't toed in putting the mic off-axis) it could be perfectly normal to see some boost of high freq energy to achieve the target curve.

I don't think it's prudent to generalize that just because MultEQ decided that you need some boost in the high freq's to achieve the target curve that there is necessarily something wrong. Not that you said that, but it's important to be clear.

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post #2714 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 3310CI only uses MultEQ (same version used by the current lower level non-CI XX13 models, 1613 and 1913) so yes. you should definitely expect a bump in sound quality going to XT32 using either the 4520CI or the 8801. Also note that the street price from some vendors (eg. AVS Sales) for the 4520CI is about a grand less than what you're seeing for a used 8801.

Yeah i have seen the 4520 for around $1700-$1900 depending on where you go.

Im going to demo the Marantz and Anthem tomorrow. Already demoed the 4520 and integra 80.3.

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post #2715 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Hugo S View Post

Hi,
Maybe you could have a look on this post. wink.gif

Hugo

thanks Hugo. i read it twice now. so you like the 8801 over the 4520?

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post #2716 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

No it doesn't have XLR pre-outs but they aren't needed for usual cable lengths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SergeantYnot View Post

Can you tell me what sonic benefits there are of XLRs vs unbalanced under 12 feet? Oh wait, that's right - none. I'm not sure about everyone else, but typically my amps or no more than 3-6 feet away from my processor in my rack.
Geeze mellow out people.cool.gif

Theresa, I was not touting the benefits of XLR. I've used XLR in applications such as recording but not for audio playback, so I can't say. But they are valued by some members of this community, and thus may well be considered when chosing a model. For ex., many Denon AVPA1 owners swear by the SQ benefit of true balanced architecture if maintained throughout processor and amps, as with the AVPA1/POA.

Well, Sarge, I was just pointing out that you overgeneralized in your post. There is an obvious difference in outputs and aren't there differences in internal architecture vs the 4520 preamp stage? Whether most folks would value/hear/benefit from that is another matter .

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #2717 of 9160 Old 02-04-2013, 11:49 PM
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1. I will try no 1 tonight after work for the PS3.

2/3. I did some testing last night... Sound and video are working all fine and I'm getting DTS HD MA and no audio / video sync issues. I tried XBMC's internal player and everything is fine as well.
The problem seems to be with TMT5 and only when I change chapters or fast forward/rewind that the signal is lost temporarily (1 second). It's annoying because the TV displays the input information everytime this happens. Other than that, no video/audio problems.
Also I forgot to add... these are the specs of my HTPC: i3 2100, 4GB RAM, NVIDIA EVGA GTX 460 SC GFX, 128GB Crucial M4 SSD... So I am using a dedicated graphics card for audio/video
Anyone else using TMT5 can provide some insight?

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post #2718 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 12:23 AM
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Right. I didn't fully expect the 2nd post to necessarily resolve your issue, rather only to note that HTPC connections can be iffy at times. One solution may be to connect HTPC (HDMI) to the TV with a separate audio connection to the AVR.

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post #2719 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Right. I didn't fully expect the 2nd post to necessarily resolve your issue, rather only to note that HTPC connections can be iffy at times. One solution may be to connect HTPC (HDMI) to the TV with a separate audio connection to the AVR.

How would you connect that though?

Cause optical for sound will not support DTS HD MA

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post #2720 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 01:05 AM
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Correct. Although it's unlikely you would notice any difference with the higher bitrate audio from the Blu Ray lossy DD/DTS tracks.

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post #2721 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 01:37 AM
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I do have my AMD 7850 hooked up to my 4520 with no problems even at 1080p60. I have had problems playing BDs with PDVD and TMT though.
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I think the problem might be that the video card is changing the input sent to the AVR which causes the tv to 'blink' show the new input info.

It might be a refresh rate change, however I'm not sure

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post #2723 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Well, Sarge, I was just pointing out that you overgeneralized in your post. There is an obvious difference in outputs and aren't there differences in internal architecture vs the 4520 preamp stage? Whether most folks would value/hear/benefit from that is another matter .

We obviously have no idea what internal differences, if any, there would be between the platform build of the 8801 and the 4520. Given that Marantz and Denon are under the same company, I would not be shocked if they were identical (like when Lexicon rebranded an Oppo 83 as their own). Since the same DACs and DSPs are used in both units, I believe that Psychoacoustics would come into play to justify the extra $1100 cost of the 8801.
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post #2724 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 08:59 AM
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^I was asking irt design differences as I've been so busy I haven't finished reading both 8801 and 4520 threads but I am under the impression that the 8801 is not just a 4520 minus amps. As to the real-world import of the differences irt SQ, that remains a difficult question in my mind

I agree with you that with so many similarities in design and components of these two similar high-end models (8801 and 4520), one could expect the SQ to be quite similar.

In fact, it seems to me that at this level of XT32-equipped processors the likes of Denon 4311, 4520, AVPA1, Marantz8801, one could reasonably expect overall SQ to be quite exc across the board from all of them, and forSQ differences to be fairly small. I'd expect pretty much the same of the XT32-equipped Onk/Integras.

Comparing such models, if one hears "night and day" differences, the first assumption should be that something went wrong procedurally in the A/B. After all, these are complex machines with many settings. And Autosetup mic placements can produce slightly different-sounding calibrations in the same unit and are hard to standardize.

IME reliable evaluation of subtle SQ differences requires level-matched repeated critical listening of very well-recorded short passages with little delay between A and B. Of course the rest of the system has to be revealing as well. Such subtle SQ differences are more subject to expectation bias, both conscious and unconscious. Even if you do level-matched BAB tests, processors are particularly challenging. As Kal pointed out, you really need a switcher.

So I agree with you that psychoacoustics come into play. However I don't assume that any reported SQ differences between models are due to placebo. I just take most of them with a grain of salt.wink.gif Or two.

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I do not own the 4520, but I did own a 3808. I had to use HDMI4 on the 3808 in order to get the HTPC to be continuously recognized by the 3808 and pass a signal. HDMI4 was the port closest to the HDMI Output port. Anyone with a HTPC problem with the 4520 can try plugging the HTPC into the HDMI input port closest to the HDMI output port and see if that helps. As a note, the Onkyo 3010 has no problem with any port (and actually is sending the HDMI output 50 feet away to the projector without any issues).
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post #2726 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

So I agree with you that psychoacoustics come into play. However I don't assume that any reported SQ differences between models are due to placebo. I just take most of them with a grain of salt.wink.gif Or two.

I suppose that D&M is making a statement that Marantz is the big brother of Denon, sort of like the Integra/Onkyo relationship. I just wish the similarities were more subtle and less obvious. I guess they thought no know one notice, eh? cool.gif



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post #2727 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 09:55 AM
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^I spoke with a D&M rep last year at Audiokarma Detroit. I asked about trading in what might be coming in case I wanted to trade in my AVRA100 for a prepro in search of updated streaming capability and perhaps even more refined SQ. He basically told me that if I wanted a new audiophile prepro I'd need to look to the Marantz line. He was right. frown.gif

When I pointed out that I have a high-end Denon player and like DenonLink, he mentioned there'd be changes to DenonLink. He was right. frown.gif

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #2728 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 10:12 AM
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I tried this, and the result is better... however sometimes it still does it...

I am turning on the TV, then AVR, than PS3 and sometimes there is no input.
I switch to another input and back to GAME and again sometimes it comes on fine and other times nothing!

I noticed if I switch the PS3 to 1080i this problem is gone but as I've said before I want 1080p!

Any other ideas?

Panasonic 65VT30E // Monitor Audio RX6 AV12 // Denon AVR-4520 // Dreambox DM 800HD // PS3 500GB
HTPC - XBMC // TMT5
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post #2729 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^I spoke with a D&M rep last year at Audiokarma Detroit. I asked about trading in what might be coming in case I wanted to trade in my AVRA100 for a prepro in search of updated streaming capability and perhaps even more refined SQ. He basically told me that if I wanted a new audiophile prepro I'd need to look to the Marantz line. He was right. frown.gif

When I pointed out that I have a high-end Denon player and like DenonLink, he mentioned there'd be changes to DenonLink. He was right. frown.gif

unfortunately for Denon player owners frown.gif

this is what Pioneer did for several years, as they incrementally improved their PQLS over HDMI. the latest player would always be out of step with the latest receiver tongue.gif this was one of the things that irritated me as a Pioneer owner & fan. I don't know if Denon owners tend to feel the same or just shrug it off. but it really put me off when I was considering going to Denon last year.

CE companies tend to do the same things wink.gif

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post #2730 of 9160 Old 02-05-2013, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

unfortunately for Denon player owners frown.gif

this is what Pioneer did for several years, as they incrementally improved their PQLS over HDMI. the latest player would always be out of step with the latest receiver tongue.gif this was one of the things that irritated me as a Pioneer owner & fan. I don't know if Denon owners tend to feel the same or just shrug it off. but it really put me off when I was considering going to Denon last year.

CE companies tend to do the same things wink.gif

I don't know, I think it's a bit silly to match electronics for aesthetic reasons or proprietary connectors of negligible importance. From that perspective I don't think Denon has a player that's as compelling as an Oppo 103/105.

Also, I have to wonder about the logic behind picking a Marantz 8801 over a Denon 4520 when the price is factored in. I guess I've always seen separates as making sense if you treat the pre/pro as a disposal item that you discard as technology changes every few years. With that in mind, I can't see the logic behind paying more for a pre/pro that has a feature set that is essentially equivalent to a full-fledged AVR. The only real difference I see here is the balanced outputs and I've yet to see any support for any real-world difference in a typical setup (i.e. the amps are relatively close to the pre/pro).
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