The **OFFICIAL** DENON AVR-4520CI thread - Page 97 - AVS Forum

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Receivers, Amps, and Processors

SoundofMind's Avatar SoundofMind
10:31 AM Liked: 161
post #2881 of 10753
02-14-2013 | Posts: 7,962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I noticed the Emotiva XPA-3 is back on sale for $599 vs. normal retail $699 and am again going through my usual crisis of conscience about buying one...Ponder, ponder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Just think, only $599 buys you a good night's sleep.  Priceless!  wink.gif
Or even less because if flint is willing to risk the cost of return shipping (prob around $30), he can find out for himself. Emo has a no-questions-asked 30d return policy. smile.gif
Joe6P's Avatar Joe6P
11:44 AM Liked: 10
post #2882 of 10753
02-14-2013 | Posts: 98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I noticed the Emotiva XPA-3 is back on sale for $599 vs. normal retail $699 and am again going through my usual crisis of conscience about buying one.  My problem is that I tend to side with those who believe an amp is mostly an improvement when the AVR runs out of steam to drive your speakers and not just for sonic improvement.  In my situation, even with my very large room (20 X 32) and 11.2 speaker setup, I don't really feel like I am lacking power.  I don't need to run the volume on the 4520 anywhere near reference for satisfying sound volume and usually have it set at -18db.  My SVS sub and the powered subs in my DefTech towers work well together and I am using a Pioneer Elite AVR to power the extra 2 channels that the 9 amps in the 4520 don't handle.  Ponder, ponder.
Funny you mentioned Emotiva… I just pre-ordered their pre-pro UMC-200 so I can bring back my (12Amp) AVR-5803 on the rack to be used only as 7channel power amp.
If I’m satisfied with the UMC-200, my AVR-4520ci might be looking for another warm home…


Check out the inner beauty on the AVR-5803!!!!

bootman_head_fi's Avatar bootman_head_fi
01:52 PM Liked: 170
post #2883 of 10753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

I noticed the Emotiva XPA-3 is back on sale for $599 vs. normal retail $699 and am again going through my usual crisis of conscience about buying one.  My problem is that I tend to side with those who believe an amp is mostly an improvement when the AVR runs out of steam to drive your speakers and not just for sonic improvement.  In my situation, even with my very large room (20 X 32) and 11.2 speaker setup, I don't really feel like I am lacking power.  I don't need to run the volume on the 4520 anywhere near reference for satisfying sound volume and usually have it set at -18db.  My SVS sub and the powered subs in my DefTech towers work well together and I am using a Pioneer Elite AVR to power the extra 2 channels that the 9 amps in the 4520 don't handle.  Ponder, ponder.

It really comes down to the speakers you have.
If you have the usual affordable easy to drive varity(polk,klipsch, deftec, etc. nothing wrong with easy to drive speakers) an AVR can usally handle these well enough for >90% of users.

Start getting into more elaborate crossover designs with impedance dips below 3ohms or a planar design with mostly resistive panels, an external amp will most likely drive those with much less drama and better control.
(that is really the key here since it isn't about loudness level)

Only you can decide if it will make a difference.
Emotiva has a generous 30 day tryout, so what do you really have to lose to see for yourself in your system?cool.gif
SergeantYnot's Avatar SergeantYnot
01:58 PM Liked: 22
post #2884 of 10753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

Funny you mentioned Emotiva… I just pre-ordered their pre-pro UMC-200 so I can bring back my (12Amp) AVR-5803 on the rack to be used only as 7channel power amp.
If I’m satisfied with the UMC-200, my AVR-4520ci might be looking for another warm home…


Check out the inner beauty on the AVR-5803!!!!

Beauty indeed. That's certainly the glory days of the $5,000 receiver era.
kaphely's Avatar kaphely
04:40 PM Liked: 12
post #2885 of 10753
02-14-2013 | Posts: 38
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Anybody else got the Firmware update notification today? I did. But before going with it I decided to do a Save of my settings just in case.
Then I went back to the menu to do the upgrade, it told me it was a 40 minutes upgrade. I hit Yes, then it did its Authenticating to server thing. Then I got Connection failed.
So I retried and ever since that hapenned, it tells me the firmware is the latest.
So what is up with that? Did they remove the update from the server while I was trying to do it?
And I tried numerous times since.

Anybody else got this problem?

Thanks
Audiodork's Avatar Audiodork
04:40 PM Liked: 31
post #2886 of 10753
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Indeed. The AVR-5805 remains the most gonzo AVR I have ever seen. That being said, that internal shot of the AVR-5803 is quite impressive indeed. I do miss the days when Pioneer had AVR's like the VSX-49, Yamaha had the Z Series, Denon's aforementioned 5000 Series, Marantz's Reference Series, et al.

It would seem the last one standing is the AVR-5308CI which coupled with the $1000 XT32 and 3D Passthrough is the most up to date flagship AVR. I suppose the Susano (SC-09tx) would be the second most recent.
Audiodork's Avatar Audiodork
04:45 PM Liked: 31
post #2887 of 10753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaphely View Post

Anybody else got the Firmware update notification today? I did. But before going with it I decided to do a Save of my settings just in case.
Then I went back to the menu to do the upgrade, it told me it was a 40 minutes upgrade. I hit Yes, then it did its Authenticating to server thing. Then I got Connection failed.
So I retried and ever since that hapenned, it tells me the firmware is the latest.
So what is up with that? Did they remove the update from the server while I was trying to do it?
And I tried numerous times since.

Anybody else got this problem?

Thanks

Hello,
I got the Firmware Notification last night around midnight and proceeded to do it. I had no issues with the update, but it well could be the combination of doing it relatively late at night and having 50 Mbps internet speed.

I did lose AirPlay after doing the update and had to reset the wireless bridge to get it back. I am not sure what the FW added however.
Cheers,
AD
Audiodork's Avatar Audiodork
04:51 PM Liked: 31
post #2888 of 10753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

It really comes down to the speakers you have.
If you have the usual affordable easy to drive varity(polk,klipsch, deftec, etc. nothing wrong with easy to drive speakers) an AVR can usally handle these well enough for >90% of users.

Start getting into more elaborate crossover designs with impedance dips below 3ohms or a planar design with mostly resistive panels, an external amp will most likely drive those with much less drama and better control.
(that is really the key here since it isn't about loudness level)

Only you can decide if it will make a difference.
Emotiva has a generous 30 day tryout, so what do you really have to lose to see for yourself in your system?cool.gif

Hello,
That should be a mighty tempting offer to many. I use my 4520 strictly as an SSP as I am using Martin Logan electrostats for all channels and it would be downright cruel to expect a 36lb AVR to drive them. It is surprising to consider that the 7 Channel AVR-3808CI and AVR-3805 both weigh more than the 9 Channel and far more expensive AVR-4520CI.
Cheers,
AD
con219's Avatar con219
05:13 PM Liked: 11
post #2889 of 10753
02-14-2013 | Posts: 285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaphely View Post

Anybody else got the Firmware update notification today? I did. But before going with it I decided to do a Save of my settings just in case.
Then I went back to the menu to do the upgrade, it told me it was a 40 minutes upgrade. I hit Yes, then it did its Authenticating to server thing. Then I got Connection failed.
So I retried and ever since that hapenned, it tells me the firmware is the latest.
So what is up with that? Did they remove the update from the server while I was trying to do it?
And I tried numerous times since.

Anybody else got this problem?

Thanks

I'm in Australia and I did it last night at 7:30pm Adelaide time. No problems whatsover.

Again would be nice to see what it changed/improved.
jdsmoothie's Avatar jdsmoothie
05:24 PM Liked: 1767
post #2890 of 10753
02-14-2013 | Posts: 46,683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaphely View Post

Anybody else got the Firmware update notification today? I did. But before going with it I decided to do a Save of my settings just in case.
Then I went back to the menu to do the upgrade, it told me it was a 40 minutes upgrade. I hit Yes, then it did its Authenticating to server thing. Then I got Connection failed.
So I retried and ever since that hapenned, it tells me the firmware is the latest.
So what is up with that? Did they remove the update from the server while I was trying to do it?
And I tried numerous times since.

Anybody else got this problem?

Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

Hello,
I got the Firmware Notification last night around midnight and proceeded to do it. I had no issues with the update, but it well could be the combination of doing it relatively late at night and having 50 Mbps internet speed.

I did lose AirPlay after doing the update and had to reset the wireless bridge to get it back. I am not sure what the FW added however.
Cheers,
AD

Quote:
Originally Posted by con219 View Post

I'm in Australia and I did it last night at 7:30pm Adelaide time. No problems whatsover.

Again would be nice to see what it changed/improved.

Post #4 updated with the firmware changelog information.
Joe6P's Avatar Joe6P
05:54 PM Liked: 10
post #2891 of 10753
02-14-2013 | Posts: 98
Joined: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaphely View Post

Anybody else got the Firmware update notification today? I did. But before going with it I decided to do a Save of my settings just in case.
Then I went back to the menu to do the upgrade, it told me it was a 40 minutes upgrade. I hit Yes, then it did its Authenticating to server thing. Then I got Connection failed.
So I retried and ever since that hapenned, it tells me the firmware is the latest.
So what is up with that? Did they remove the update from the server while I was trying to do it?
And I tried numerous times since.

Anybody else got this problem?

Thanks

I did it last night after reading about it here.
Sure enough it took the whole 40 minutes to download and install. But I haven’t had the chance to look for any changes other than when I switch from internet radio listening to another source, I don’t hear the radio leak anymore. And when I go back to internet radio, the last station tuned in is no longer active. I think that’s one of the enhancements.
btinindy's Avatar btinindy
06:16 PM Liked: 52
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02-14-2013 | Posts: 833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

+1... doesn't resolve the issue on a weak power section in my 4520...
Am alternating between an Emotiva XPA -3 and my MF A 5.5 stereo amp... plus a Rotel 1572 for the sides...

So, is the general consensus on this receiver that it is "Underpowered"? I am trying to decide between this receiver and the Onkyo 3010 and I am struggling with why the "Watts" are so much different on the rear of the receivers and the weight. Does Denon use Class D amps or something?

I appreciate any input.
bootman_head_fi's Avatar bootman_head_fi
06:24 PM Liked: 170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

So, is the general consensus on this receiver that it is "Underpowered"?

I appreciate any input.

I'll ask the obvious.

What speakers do you have?
Room size?
Mix of music vs HT?

Your answers pretty much determine the outcome of your question. smile.gif
btinindy's Avatar btinindy
06:33 PM Liked: 52
post #2894 of 10753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

I'll ask the obvious.

What speakers do you have?
Room size?
Mix of music vs HT?

Your answers pretty much determine the outcome of your question. smile.gif

Yes, I get that. I just wondered in general what the consensus was on this receiver.

I mess around with DIY. Right now I have a SEOS design with a 12" waveguide and AETD12M mid woofer for LCR. It is a pretty efficient combination probably 95dB or so. 50/50 mix for music and movies. I currently have an Onkyo 3007 powering them and I rarely run out of justice except maybe listening to some music louder than I should.

I was more trying to see if generally those that are using this as a receiver may feel like the power is lacking. I have never owned a Denon and I am thinking about trying it out. I am tired of HDMI problems with my last two Onkyo's, though I love their sound and power.
Joe6P's Avatar Joe6P
06:45 PM Liked: 10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

Yes, I get that. I just wondered in general what the consensus was on this receiver.

I mess around with DIY. Right now I have a SEOS design with a 12" waveguide and AETD12M mid woofer for LCR. It is a pretty efficient combination probably 95dB or so. 50/50 mix for music and movies. I currently have an Onkyo 3007 powering them and I rarely run out of justice except maybe listening to some music louder than I should.

I was more trying to see if generally those that are using this as a receiver may feel like the power is lacking. I have never owned a Denon and I am thinking about trying it out. I am tired of HDMI problems with my last two Onkyo's, though I love their sound and power.


Don’t kid yourself. This might be the answer.
a1usedcomp's Avatar a1usedcomp
07:48 PM Liked: 25
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Has anyone else noticed that if TV is turned on or off seperate there is a audio drop out on the 4520


" My update went fine "
Joe6P's Avatar Joe6P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

Has anyone else noticed that if TV is turned on or off seperate there is a audio drop out on the 4520


" My update went fine "

If you’re using HDMI connections, expect the unexpected…
afrogt's Avatar afrogt
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Quote:
Has anyone else noticed that if TV is turned on or off seperate there is a audio drop out on the 4520
I don't think that is unique to your 4520.

If I turn off my monitor or display which is connected via HDMI to the receiver there will be a dropout while the receiver reestablished a connection The HDMI link has been broken. It think that is pretty normal as all 3 of my Denons do it. Only about a 1-2 second dropout. This happens if using my satellite dish which is also connected via HDMI.

It only happens with digital devices in the chain, probably only HDMI actually. I've got my CD player connected via analog and even though there is on screen display via HDMI I can turn off my TV and there is no dropout.

Not a big deal in my opinion.
a1usedcomp's Avatar a1usedcomp
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Thanks I never noticed this with other units

When I using my Denon DBT-3313 and playing SACD it does it also again HDMI connection atleast I know its normal now
petetherock's Avatar petetherock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btinindy View Post

So, is the general consensus on this receiver that it is "Underpowered"? I am trying to decide between this receiver and the Onkyo 3010 and I am struggling with why the "Watts" are so much different on the rear of the receivers and the weight. Does Denon use Class D amps or something?

I appreciate any input.

As posted, what is your kit?

If you have a solid subwoofer, and use this in a simple 5.1 or 7.1 setup with efficient speakers, it will be more than enough.
I use the MF A 5.5 with 250W per channel and the Emotiva for my B&W 800 series based system.

I am not sure that the Onkyo will give a lot more real world power.
Consider that a legacy AV amp like the Marantz SR 12 with only 7 channels, has 70 000mF of capacitance, and this one has 44 000mF. I bought it for the processing power. The fact that it has amps is a bonus, which I use for the Fronts, Heights and rear channels.
Joe6P's Avatar Joe6P
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

I bought it for the processing power.

$2.500 is a lot of money to spend on a receiver to be used as a processor. In that case, I’d rather spend less than half the amount on AVR-3313ci or one third the amount on Emotiva UMC- 200 processor.
Theresa's Avatar Theresa
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Actually it was far less than $2500. An equivalent processor is $2000 more, the Marantz 8801. IMHO the Emotiva is crippled and not worth the small amount it costs. The 4520 has Audyssey XT32 and set up for two subs. It also can turn off the inputs to the amps so that they are not being driven when used as a pre-pro. All of that and the wealth of features makes it worth it to me. Good luck with the UMC-200, your going to need it.
petetherock's Avatar petetherock
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe6P View Post

$2.500 is a lot of money to spend on a receiver to be used as a processor. In that case, I’d rather spend less than half the amount on AVR-3313ci or one third the amount on Emotiva UMC- 200 processor.
Its your money mate...
I had a 4311, and I enjoy the features it offers, and the 4520 ups the ante on this, with the crisp, precise HT surround experience and steering that makes it a bargain compared to the Anthems, Lexicons etc.
If you feel the 3313 or Emotiva UMC does the job, then it's good for you mate.
Theresa's Avatar Theresa
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I had a 4311 for a couple of weeks. I also used a UMC-1 for a year or more. It was fatally flawed in my opinion. EmoQ wasn't worth using and from what I've heard the new EmoQ is still flawed. The XMC-1 looks promising but is still vaporware and speculation is that when/if it materializes that it won't have room correction. I also had trouble with the Onkyo 5508. So far the Denon has worked flawlessly and as you say it's surround processing seems superior as does it's SQ to my subjective hearing. It also lacks the annoyances of the Onkyo such as relay clicking and slow switching.
a1usedcomp's Avatar a1usedcomp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I had a 4311 for a couple of weeks. I also used a UMC-1 for a year or more. It was fatally flawed in my opinion. EmoQ wasn't worth using and from what I've heard the new EmoQ is still flawed. The XMC-1 looks promising but is still vaporware and speculation is that when/if it materializes that it won't have room correction. I also had trouble with the Onkyo 5508. So far the Denon has worked flawlessly and as you say it's surround processing seems superior as does it's SQ to my subjective hearing. It also lacks the annoyances of the Onkyo such as relay clicking and slow switching.


I had the 5508 also it was a decent unit but the relay clicking drove me nuts also , as for Emotiva its the way to go if you want to add stress to your life eek.gif I also have had no issue with my 4520 and feel it was worth every cent
a1usedcomp's Avatar a1usedcomp
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Im trying to decide if I can let my D Sonic amp go and just use the 4520 to drive my system this will also let me get rid of some exspensive cables . Im going to driving a front stage of Song Tower RT's and a pair of surrounds .

Equal Power Amplifiers Yes - 9 Channel
Power Output Per Channel(20Hz-20kHz, 0.08%THD@8ohm) 150 Watts (.05%THD)

Theresa's Avatar Theresa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

Im trying to decide if I can let my D Sonic amp go and just use the 4520 to drive my system this will also let me get rid of some exspensive cables . Im going to driving a front stage of Song Tower RT's and a pair of surrounds .

Equal Power Amplifiers Yes - 9 Channel
Power Output Per Channel(20Hz-20kHz, 0.08%THD@8ohm) 150 Watts (.05%THD)

Sadly the power rating is for only two channels driven. One review said that it output only 45 watts with 5 channels (or was it 7?) driven simultaneously but I doubt that figure. You could just sell your expensive cables and get one's from Monoprice and keep using your amp. My experience is that the 4520 is an excellent pre-pro.
gurkey's Avatar gurkey
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There is some sort of standard formula for an average class AB amp with a rather "normal" efficiency rating of about 50%.
Take the max power supply wattage, half it (50%) and divide the outcome by the number of channels driven in parallel at the same time. This will assume, that the output transistors are capable of handling this much power.
Most "high end" AVRs will end up around 70 Watt RMS per channel for 7 channels driven or about 60 Watt RMS per channel for 9 channels driven in parallel.
Several reviews will provide similar numbers if tested this way and not the usual 2 channel spec provided by the manufacturer, which crossly overstates the units capabilities for multi-channel applications.
a1usedcomp's Avatar a1usedcomp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Sadly the power rating is for only two channels driven. One review said that it output only 45 watts with 5 channels driven simultaneously. You could just sell your expensive cables and get one's from Monoprice and keep using your amp. My experience is that the 4520 is an excellent pre-pro.

I wouldnt sell the cables unless I sold the amp , I try not to talk about cables because it always leads to problems. I will have to do some more research because I just took the amp out of the picture and Im still at the same vol level and it sounds awesome .

45W seems pretty low
Theresa's Avatar Theresa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a1usedcomp View Post

I wouldnt sell the cables unless I sold the amp , I try not to talk about cables because it always leads to problems. I will have to do some more research because I just took the amp out of the picture and Im still at the same vol level and it sounds awesome .

45W seems pretty low

As you wish as far as cables, it's your money. If it provides sufficient volume than you won't need the amp. Personally my speakers are rather inefficient and I need the power my Emo amps provide.
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