DONE with DENON. Suggestions needed please... - Page 4 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-07-2012, 01:37 AM
Senior Member
 
ten8yp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 350
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Apple succeeds because of GREAT marketing and a US market that THRIVES on proprietary fad gadgets. Thats IT... the ONLY reason they are even still around. Then they managed to make a computer that was virtually virus free........ but then again, home pc manufacturers WANT their computers to be virus capable......... so they can sell MacAfee and Norton and Kispersky etc etc etc......... which are in themselves viruses and gateways for viruses.
ten8yp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-07-2012, 02:40 AM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Didn't apply have its production employees committing suicide in droves?

No they where doing it at a lower rate than in the us of a, maybe that tells us something about build quality in the states ?. I guess this and the last reply are on topic since they show examples of people who keep myths alive and troll. As a user the only thing you can do is understand how the people on the internet are and take the bad with the good. The good news is that unlike before you have access to all the information and actual users, designers and insiders to make up your mind.

This forum has been better than most and i hope it will stay that way.

Daniel.

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
Old 10-07-2012, 02:16 PM
Senior Member
 
ten8yp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 350
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

No they where doing it at a lower rate than in the us of a, maybe that tells us something about build quality in the states ?. I guess this and the last reply are on topic since they show examples of people who keep myths alive and troll. As a user the only thing you can do is understand how the people on the internet are and take the bad with the good. The good news is that unlike before you have access to all the information and actual users, designers and insiders to make up your mind.
This forum has been better than most and i hope it will stay that way.
Daniel.

Which "myths" are those that you refer to?
ten8yp is offline  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:02 PM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Yeah, I thought they were...Apple production facility FoxConn had a rash of suicides:
Quote:
Suicides at Apple Factory in China Rock the Sweatshop Supply System
http://labornotes.org/blogs/2010/06/suicides-apple-factory-china-rock-sweatshop-supply-system
cybrsage is offline  
Old 10-07-2012, 03:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by ten8yp View Post

Which "myths" are those that you refer to?

Kind of feel suck into this but here you go :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides

The suicide rate at Foxconn during the suicide spate remained lower than that of the general Chinese population,[8] as well as all 50 states in the United States.[9][10] Additionally the Foxconn deaths may have been a product of economic conditions external to the company. In China in 2010 there were several major strike actions at other high-profile manufacturers in China, and the Lewisian turning-point is a macro-economic factor that may provide context for the events.[11]

My point was its probably best to take all with a grain of salt and read multiple sources. also learn who is reporting what for example knowing MCode and reading his posts will/should give him more credits.

Same can be found on the 'just pr' thing, just look up the pr budgets of several companies, quality numbers and user satisfaction numbers. and since most of apple stuff is sold outside of the usa the argument on 'why' also is doubtful. Facts are they produce above avg stuff at a above avg price and are extremely mainstream.

Daniel.

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
Old 10-07-2012, 04:11 PM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
While I don't approve of how other countries treat their people I do have friends that travel and tell me each time a factory opens up they have more than enough people standing in line to apply so having a job with lower working conditions obviously trumps no job something the U.S. is learning you might have to take a pay cut and longer hours but it still beats unemployment.
oztech is offline  
Old 10-07-2012, 06:51 PM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

Kind of feel suck into this but here you go :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxconn_suicides
The suicide rate at Foxconn during the suicide spate remained lower than that of the general Chinese population,[8] as well as all 50 states in the United States.[9][10] Additionally the Foxconn deaths may have been a product of economic conditions external to the company. In China in 2010 there were several major strike actions at other high-profile manufacturers in China, and the Lewisian turning-point is a macro-economic factor that may provide context for the events.[11]
My point was its probably best to take all with a grain of salt and read multiple sources. also learn who is reporting what for example knowing MCode and reading his posts will/should give him more credits.
Same can be found on the 'just pr' thing, just look up the pr budgets of several companies, quality numbers and user satisfaction numbers. and since most of apple stuff is sold outside of the usa the argument on 'why' also is doubtful. Facts are they produce above avg stuff at a above avg price and are extremely mainstream.
Daniel.

12 people committing suicide at ONE LOCATION AND AT WORK in half a year is not typical in any nation or facility. Wikipedia is only as viable as those who twist the info they post in it....
cybrsage is offline  
Old 10-07-2012, 10:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
oztech's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 7,662
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

12 people committing suicide at ONE LOCATION AND AT WORK in half a year is not typical in any nation or facility. Wikipedia is only as viable as those who twist the info they post in it....

I have a better question why would anyone with any sanity contemplate suicide.
oztech is offline  
Old 10-08-2012, 12:07 PM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

12 people committing suicide at ONE LOCATION AND AT WORK in half a year is not typical in any nation or facility. Wikipedia is only as viable as those who twist the info they post in it....

You do understand that this one 'place' has 450000 people right ? [1]. The whole point is that typically for a 'town' of 450000 this number would be higher, numbers are weird that way. And i agree with the last poster anyone in their right mind would commit suicide but maybe if you come from a rural area to work for the first time in your life doing a boring job, away from family feeling homesick makes you do things (i guess that other chinese people have even more problems) ?

And yes wikipedia is one source, for lets call them much talked about topics like this its safe to assume probably more true than other sources but feel free to add your own sources (on the topic of the thread).

Getting back to denon and their build quality and MCode's comments. I could claim that i have owned several denon devices and never had a problem so his numbers suck but i know there are factors why the parts i have from denon went better including when (build year), where (it was made), price (maybe $200 is not the same as $8000) and luck (like having a bad chip batch) that come into play. Thats why you do statistics and fact checking to remove your own personal bias.

Sorry all for going of topic, will be my last reply about apple.

POSTEDIT: like i stated i won't reply on it anymore, but if you start a thread in a correct area ill be happy to reply and we can talk about clustering and what makes a city in your eyes. I do notice that you don't directly claim any of the numbers are wrong.

Daniel.


[1] Even when calculated as if all the employee deaths were from the Shenzhen factory complex alone (to simulate a localised area suicide rate), which in 2010 had a workforce of 450,000,[17] the rate is still well below the national average at 3.11 per 100,000 (around 14% the national average).

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
Old 10-08-2012, 01:29 PM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielo View Post

You do understand that this one 'place' has 450000 people right ? [1]. The whole point is that typically for a 'town' of 450000 this number would be higher, numbers are weird that way. And i agree with the last poster anyone in their right mind would commit suicide but maybe if you come from a rural area to work for the first time in your life doing a boring job, away from family feeling homesick makes you do things (i guess that other chinese people have even more problems) ?
And yes wikipedia is one source, for lets call them much talked about topics like this its safe to assume probably more true than other sources but feel free to add your own sources (on the topic of the thread).

You do realize I could go and edit the page right now, then quote my newly edited info, right? You would then have to say it is true since you say an easily edited site must be true in this topic...

That is my point about wikipedia, it is only as true as the last editing person decides they want it to be. Bias, outright lies, misinformation - it is all there for you to claim as truth if you so wish.

Quote:
Sorry all for going of topic, will be my last reply about apple.
Daniel.
[1] Even when calculated as if all the employee deaths were from the Shenzhen factory complex alone (to simulate a localised area suicide rate), which in 2010 had a workforce of 450,000,[17] the rate is still well below the national average at 3.11 per 100,000 (around 14% the national average).

Stop pretending this one facitlity is a city, it is not the same at all. Also 7 of those 12 happened in ONE MONTH (May). Name me one other facitility which had that many people commit suicide AT WORK in one month. Since you claim it is a below average death toll, it should be easy for you to do. There should be at least a dozen companies where this has happened if you are correct.
cybrsage is offline  
Old 10-08-2012, 01:38 PM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by oztech View Post

I have a better question why would anyone with any sanity contemplate suicide.

Hmm...must have accidently closed the page before my reply hit...I answered this, but here goes again:

There are some very rational and sane reasons to contemplate suicide. An easy one is someone who is in stage 4 inoperable cancer. At a certain point the pain is so great you cannot take enough morphine to deaden it or you will be taking a toxic dose. In this case, suicide is a sane and rational option. There are others (such as the suicides at Masada by the rebel Jews who were about to be captured and then slowly tortured to death by the Romans), but the cancer one is good enough.

However, in most cases the person who is going to commit suicide is not currently sane.
cybrsage is offline  
Old 10-08-2012, 07:48 PM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

This is a big part of the reason you see so many people buying Pioneer. When Denon and Yamaha owners answer questions on reliability and sound quality with the suggestion that you have to buy a pretty expensive model to get peace of mind and adequate sound, there's something seriously wrong. Even Onkyo now only offers decent calibration on $850 models and up, with those below that range not so much as even having MultEQ. They're also another brand trying to recover from reliability issues.
When you look at the price you can get an Elite for and the features they have on them, it's pretty tough to expect people to want to pay upwards twice as much, unless for some reason they're very biased toward other brands and calibration software, and for the life of me I can't understand why, other than maybe easier menu navigation and more usable presets.
How many people seriously into good sound quality use presets a lot though? I also don't get the raves about Audyssey, mostly for how fine tunable it is. Doesn't that also mean it's auto calibration usually needs extra work, rather than doing a pretty good job on it's own? Pioneer may get a few of the little details wrong, but they get the main ones pretty right, including calibration. MCACC is not nearly as bad as Audyssey fanatics make it sound. In fact it's pretty damned good.

Pioneer does not have sub calibration.
cybrsage is offline  
Old 10-08-2012, 09:20 PM
Member
 
seanmcd72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 17
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

12 people committing suicide at ONE LOCATION AND AT WORK in half a year is not typical in any nation or facility. Wikipedia is only as viable as those who twist the info they post in it....

Do you have any freaking idea how many people work at this facility, which is INDEED an F'ing self contained CITY? It's like 10 times the number in Harrisburg, PA. The suicide rate there is below that of China as whole, and that is WELL DOCUMENTED. Have you ever lived in communist China? Do you realize people line up outside this place hoping to get hired?

Now back on topic. To the OP - cut your losses, sell your dang Denon and go buy a Yamaha. Or, take your chances with a new Denon. Maybe you got a lemon. I would never put up with taking a receiver in for repairs three times.

Samsung LN46A650 TV, Denon AVR-2113ci, Polk Audio TL350 speakers, SVSOUND PB10 subwoofer

seanmcd72 is offline  
Old 10-09-2012, 12:37 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Chu Gai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: NYC area
Posts: 14,967
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 318 Post(s)
Liked: 596
There appears to be an unintended economic incentive at Foxconn WRT suicides.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/malcolmmoore/100041277/why-foxconn-cannot-stop-its-suicides/

"I've found that when you want to know the truth about someone that someone is probably the last person you should ask." - Gregory House
Chu Gai is offline  
Old 10-09-2012, 09:56 AM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmcd72 View Post

Do you have any freaking idea how many people work at this facility, which is INDEED an F'ing self contained CITY? It's like 10 times the number in Harrisburg, PA. The suicide rate there is below that of China as whole, and that is WELL DOCUMENTED. Have you ever lived in communist China? Do you realize people line up outside this place hoping to get hired?

Then if this is normal, you should easily be able to show several other companies where 7 people all committed suicde at work in one month. Put your money where your mouth is and post these companies. If you cannot, that means this is abnormal.


As a hint to you, committing suicde at work is abnormal...that is why you will fail in your attempt to support your claim that this is a normal happening at any large company.
cybrsage is offline  
Old 10-09-2012, 11:30 AM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 23,099
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 131 Post(s)
Liked: 480
Moderator

please limit all further discussions to technical issues: this means no further discussions of suicides

political comments are not allowed either...thread ban warning should be noted

please take the high road in every post
if you see a problematic post, please do not quote it or respond to it: report it to the mods to handle
markrubin is offline  
Old 10-09-2012, 12:55 PM
 
HiFiFun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: USA
Posts: 2,209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

M Code,
Thanx. It does seem in addition to shedding employees, Denon AVR's certainly do not seem to weigh as much as they used to. The AVR-4520CI weighs 36lbs and is a 9 Channel AVR whereas the 7 Channel AVR-3805 weighs almost the same (37lbs). And cost half as much.
Cheers,
AD
First the weights and power ONLY apply to the class A/B receivers. Specifically NOT the Pioneer Class D receivers.
Second members need to realize that corporations can change drastically from one model year to the next.
Take Sony under British-American Howard Stringer. While at the helm Sony TV's regressed in quality. Their $4K front projector optical quality was so bad it couldn't show the pixels.
There was much talk that Sony would exit the display business.
However in the past six months, the traditional quality minded Japanese designers have begun to release high quality products such as the 50ES front projector.

Now lets look at Denon and their 4311 receiver. Here is a comment from an Amazon review:
"I'm a little surprised that it runs so much hotter than my Yamaha"
As a result the weight of the relatively inefficient class A/B receivers going down the internal components begin to bake at a higher temperature.

Lets compare the total A/C power consumption of the comparable new Onkyo 5010 and Denon 4520:
Denon 4520 rated at 780 watts (click to magnify) 9 Channels, 150 W Equal Power all channels 0.05% - no FTC given


Onkyo 5010 rated at (12.4amps*120volts) = 1488 watts 145 W (8 ohms, 20 Hz-20 kHz, 0.05%, 2 channels driven, FTC)


If there were perfect amplifiers then power consumed is calculated as 150 watts * 9 channels = 1350 watts

780/1488 = 52%
Let the reader draw their own conclusion as to corners being cut!
HiFiFun is offline  
Old 10-09-2012, 01:21 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Craig Peer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: In my home theater ( when I'm not rock climbing, cycling or kayaking ) - Sacramento CA area
Posts: 5,444
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 360 Post(s)
Liked: 333
Quote:
Now back on topic. To the OP - cut your losses, sell your dang Denon and go buy a Yamaha. Or, take your chances with a new Denon. Maybe you got a lemon. I would never put up with taking a receiver in for repairs three times.

I'd have to agree. I've owned 2 different Denon receivers ( I currently use a 4310CI ) and have had zero problems. Sorry to hear others have not had as good luck as I have. It can happen with any brand I imagine.

Craig Peer, AV Science Sales. Call me on my direct line - 585-671-2972, 8:30am - 4:30pm PST, Monday - Friday
Email me at craig@avscience.com http://shop.avscience.com/
Yes, we sell Home Theater gear right here at AVS !!
JVC, Sony, Epson, DPI, SIM2, SV Sound, Martin Logan, RBH, and many more!
Craig Peer is offline  
Old 10-10-2012, 09:28 AM
 
cybrsage's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Posts: 8,074
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 150
I would just get the Onkyo 3010 if I was fleeing the Denon world. It has the same Audyssey as the new Denon 4250, including sub eq.
cybrsage is offline  
Old 10-13-2012, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
santora's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 221
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well, although at times this thread devolved into name calling and product bashing, I (for now) have decided to stick with my Denon 3310ci. The repair ended up being $140 to have the power caps replaced(I believe it was the caps). To do it then find something else with different problems would be a silly move right now. So thanks for all the help everyone. I'll definitely be considering Yamaha and Pioneer on my next round but Denon will have to seriously step up it's game if it wants my money again.

Mark
santora is offline  
Old 10-13-2012, 05:34 PM
Senior Member
 
tdamocles's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: PA
Posts: 486
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Why not try the Pioneer sc-1222-k. I think it is $599 till the 18th @ Newegg. It looks to have the same D3 amps as the SC Elite line of receivers.
tdamocles is offline  
 
Thread Tools


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off