DONE with DENON. Suggestions needed please... - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 111 Old 09-20-2012, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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I purchased my first Denon receiver (the 3310ci) a little over 3 years ago. In that time it has been in the shop (including most recent) 3 times. For a $1500 piece of equipment this is completely unacceptable. I have no idea how much this is going to cost me now but I'm done. I'm most likely going to fix it and sell it as the headaches associated with the unit are just too numerous. My wife hates that she's still having to reset the microprocessor all the time. It's time to move on and Denon "support" has been anything but supportive.

So what I'm looking for is a new receiver and here are some of the Spec's I'd like to hit:

7.1 minimum
Dual HDMI out.
Composite/Component/S-Video Upscaling.
Dual Zone powered output.
Hardwire Networking (not wireless).
HD Radio
Front USB/HDMI ports
Excellent compatibility with the Logitech Harmony One
Minimum 100 Watts
RS232 on the back



Things I DON'T need:
Iphone apps (I'm an android user so they do me no good)
Airplay (again, no apple stuff)
Sirius/XM Radio
3D (if' it's built in no biggie but I hate 3D tv and won't be getting one anytime soon).
Pre-Amp outs (again if it's built in that's ok, but I'm not powering amps).


And finally, I'd like to keep it under a grand.

Thoughts anyone?

Thanks
Mark Santora
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post #2 of 111 Old 09-20-2012, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by santora View Post

I purchased my first Denon receiver (the 3310ci) a little over 3 years ago. In that time it has been in the shop (including most recent) 3 times. For a $1500 piece of equipment this is completely unacceptable. I have no idea how much this is going to cost me now but I'm done. I'm most likely going to fix it and sell it as the headaches associated with the unit are just too numerous. My wife hates that she's still having to reset the microprocessor all the time. It's time to move on and Denon "support" has been anything but supportive.

It would be interesting to hear what issues you had with the Denon that were not settled in the shop. BTW, I would never leave the microprocessor reset to be done by my wife! tongue.gif
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post #3 of 111 Old 09-20-2012, 04:22 PM
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In that price range you might want to give Yamaha or even Marantz a try, IF you can put up with Marantz' new tiny portal window type displays.. Yamaha has a very good track record for reliability and user friendliness. Unfortunately in the price range I shop in they don't sound too good. Anything under $650 Pioneer seems to reign on sound quality.
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post #4 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 12:20 AM
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Marantz and Denon are the same product lines repackaged. Even the same holding company.
Yamaha, Pioneer and Onkyo might be a choice.
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post #5 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 01:08 AM
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Any receiver or pre-pro NOT made in China is a good bet too. I believe everything Denon makes, except their flagship receiver, is now made in China.

Having said that. My Japan-made Denon receiver died about 6 months after the warranty ended. I knew going in that heat was an issue with my particular receiver. Denon took care of me at no cost, besides my road trip to/from the shop, which meant more to me than the inconvenience of it dying.

You could always try bucking for a 3313ci since you seem to have gotten a lemon.

I think the complexity of receivers today is leaving them open to more failures. They are being asked to do a lot more than they were just 5 years ago.

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post #6 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 03:21 AM
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Also look at the Pioneer Elite avr's.

Klipsch RF 7 based HT 7.4, Pioneer SC 35, Acurus Five 200 amp, Chase SS 18.2(2), VS 18.1(2), Samsung BDP F 7500, Asus/My Book Live HPC 4 TB

Yaquin VK 2100 amp, McIntosh XR 5 speakers, Samsung BDP F 7500
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post #7 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 06:45 AM
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Although there are always going to be a small % of units that slip through the QA process, unfortunately the 3310CI had three major issues which made it a bad purchase (1) defective NIC, (2) MSRP should have been $1199 (vice $1499) just as its predecessor 2809, and successors 3311,3312,3313 (3) Audyssey level was dropped from MultEQ XT to only MultEQ. However, disgarding a whole brand because of one defective model is like no longer patronizing a restaurant chain because you had a bad meal at one of their restaurants (without even trying any of the other meals). The 3312CI and newer 2313CI or 3313CI meet your feature and budget requirements as well as use the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ XT. Regarding your current 3310CI, before doing a micro reset, try simply unplugging the unit for 10 minutes. Also, if your unit is no longer covered by warranty, and any repair work is on your dime, you may be better served just investing in a newer AVR and just using the 3310CI for Zone 2 or 3 duties.

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post #8 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 07:53 AM
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A key point about reliability..

Many, many AVRs are mounted in cramped quarters..
An AVR needs at least 3-4" of free-air clearance for the L/R sides and top covers, without this the chassis can/will run hot..

Just my $0.02... wink.gif
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post #9 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 09:08 AM
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If heat is the issue, Pioneer receivers use more efficient amps and hence produce less heat.

Onkyo receivers have a bad history and what has already been stated, Marantz and Denon are the same company. Your choices are basically Pioneer or Yamaha if you want a reliable mass produced receiver. The downside is they don't use audyssey and hence no sub eq. I personally don't notice much difference between audyssey and ypao. At least at auydyssey levels below xt32. I've never used mcacc.
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post #10 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 09:28 AM
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If heat is the issue, Pioneer receivers use more efficient amps and hence produce less heat.

I've heard the ICE amps are efficient, but what about the entry level non ICE receiver line?

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post #11 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 02:19 PM
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Curious, but can someone offer sources for the claim of Marantz and Denon being the same product. I know they share very similar component spec in some ways, but some design features are clearly very different, as is the price range they start at, and there seems to be far more complaints about the Denons than the Marantz units. Not really interested in either of those brands due to preferring the sound of Pioneers over Denons in the price range I'm shopping in and Marantz models I'd look at costing more than I want to pay, but I'd like to know just the same.

As for China manufacturing not being a safe bet, I'm not sure I buy that. From what I've been told and have read, it depends a lot whom owns and/or oversees the factory they're built in. Rotel receivers are built in China, obviously as a measure to offer a better price point, but they're pretty decent.
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post #12 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

Curious, but can someone offer sources for the claim of Marantz and Denon being the same product. I know they share very similar component spec in some ways, but some design features are clearly very different, as is the price range they start at, and there seems to be far more complaints about the Denons than the Marantz units. Not really interested in either of those brands due to preferring the sound of Pioneers over Denons in the price range I'm shopping in and Marantz models I'd look at costing more than I want to pay, but I'd like to know just the same.
As for China manufacturing not being a safe bet, I'm not sure I buy that. From what I've been told and have read, it depends a lot whom owns and/or oversees the factory they're built in. Rotel receivers are built in China, obviously as a measure to offer a better price point, but they're pretty decent.

Though owned by the same financial group D & M Holdings, Marantz and Denon for the last 10 years has had separate AVR engineering design teams..
Fast forward to now...
Denon has had its distribution channels shredded as they tried to support both the big box sellers and the specialist channels...
Unfortunately the bottom fell out and Denon AVR sales for the last couple of years crashed to low levels...
Up to a 50% $ decrease...
While trying to satisfy the entry level buyer @ $249 and attempting to hold on to the profit-oriented installer/specialist....
Next, to try and keep up sales, Denon made their higher positioned/margin AVRs became available to the internet sellers....
Who blasted out the prices and the specialist stopped pushing Denon AVRs as there was no profit margin..

Moving forward, D & M management merged the engineering/sourcing teams and now both brands use the same AVR platforms....


Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
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post #13 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 04:29 PM
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Onkyo TX-NR818 might be a good bet for you.
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post #14 of 111 Old 09-21-2012, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Methadras View Post

Onkyo TX-NR818 might be a good bet for you.

I would personally stay away from Onkyo! I have had a failure of a TX-NR515 and TX-NR717 (which was a replacement for the failed 515) in the last two weeks!

Check out the OnkyoUSA forums. 22 pages of complaints listed on the 515. With the price of the 818, I'd be afraid to purchase it based on quality.

Good luck whatever you decide!
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post #15 of 111 Old 09-22-2012, 09:36 AM
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Hello,
Yamaha seems to be the most reliable with Pioneer Elite right behind them. That being said, I have had a quite positive experience with Onkyo. It seems I might be in the minority, but the TX-SR805 and 875 I previously owned were sold to close friends and have been flawless almost 5 years later and my TX-NR3008 has been flawless.

I did own a B-Stock TX-NR3007 that succumbed to HDMI issues, but the other 3 were A-Stock. I have used all 4 solely as SSP's never connecting a Speaker Cable to the Binding Posts. All the same, Yamaha Aventage or one of the D3 Pioneer Elites would be the safest choice. If you could find a NOS ICEPowered Pioneer Elite AVR, that too would be excellent.
Cheers,
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post #16 of 111 Old 09-22-2012, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

Though owned by the same financial group D & M Holdings, Marantz and Denon for the last 10 years has had separate AVR engineering design teams..
Fast forward to now...
Denon has had its distribution channels shredded as they tried to support both the big box sellers and the specialist channels...
Unfortunately the bottom fell out and Denon AVR sales for the last couple of years crashed to low levels...
Up to a 50% $ decrease...
While trying to satisfy the entry level buyer @ $249 and attempting to hold on to the profit-oriented installer/specialist....
Next, to try and keep up sales, Denon made their higher positioned/margin AVRs became available to the internet sellers....
Who blasted out the prices and the specialist stopped pushing Denon AVRs as there was no profit margin..
Moving forward, D & M management merged the engineering/sourcing teams and now both brands use the same AVR platforms....
Just my $0.02.. wink.gif

M Code,
How long has Bain Capital owned D&M? When downloading the AVR-4520CI Press Release, I noticed at the very end that D&M were a part of Bain. I would imagine it will not be too terribly different than ShoreView owning Paradigm, Anthem, MartinLogan and others, but regardless I was not aware of the ownership change.
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post #17 of 111 Old 09-22-2012, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

M Code,
How long has Bain Capital owned D&M? When downloading the AVR-4520CI Press Release, I noticed at the very end that D&M were a part of Bain. I would imagine it will not be too terribly different than ShoreView owning Paradigm, Anthem, MartinLogan and others, but regardless I was not aware of the ownership change.
AD

The attached article should answer your questions.. cool.gif
Also I should mention that shortly thereafter, the USA organization was shredded and sized down by about 70%..

Denon Electronics Bought by Mitt Romney Corporation
by Clint DeBoer — last modified June 20, 2008

Mitt Romney Owns Denon

Missed it by that much. D&M Holdings Inc. (TSE 1:6735) and Bain Capital Partners LLC today announced that they have entered into an agreement, under which an acquisition corporation owned by investment funds advised by Bain Capital Partners LLC will launch a tender offer for all of the shares of D&M Holdings at a price of 510 yen per share of common stock.

To most people this will sound like "Denon Electronics purchased by blah blah blah blah blah..." but if you look into Bain Capital you will find that it has Mitt Romney as one of its principle founders back in 1984. We came this close to having a major electronics company at least partially owned by a Presidential Candidate. Oh well, those are the breaks... Bain Capital is also responsible for putting money behind Staples, Clear Channel Communications, Philips, Warner Music Group, Burger King, Home Depot, and Guitar Center (and a whole host of other high profile companies too lengthy to be listed here).

This price represents a premium of 37.1% over the average closing share price in the six months prior to June 19, 2008, and a premium of 68.9% over the unaffected closing share price on January 23, 2008, the day prior to the emergence of press speculation regarding a potential transaction involving the company. Following the completion of the tender offer process, the shares of D&M Holdings would be delisted from the Tokyo Stock Exchange.

If we read this correctly, Denon Electronics is now officially going to be an American company and go private.

“After an exhaustive review of strategic options, we have determined that this offer from Bain Capital represents the best overall value for our shareholders. The next few years should be an exciting time for D&M as we enter another phase in our development,” said Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Eric C. Evans. “If Bain Capital acquires D&M through the tender offer, we believe we will be better positioned as a privately held company to be more flexible in the fast-paced changing markets in which we compete. We will also have wider latitude to invest for medium- and long-term growth.”

Going forward, the Company intends to continue its active pursuit of acquisitions and growth in the consumer, commercial and automotive audio video businesses. D&M Holdings’ Board of Directors has agreed that the Bain Capital tender offer is in the best interests of the company. The Board of Directors will formally consider a resolution to recommend the tender offer to shareholders at the time the offer is launched.


The tender offer by Bain Capital is scheduled to be launched following the signing of the tender offer agreement. Bain Capital intends to purchase 100% of the shares of D&M Holdings. Any remaining outstanding shares would be obtained through subsequent the stages of the acquisition process. The entire process is subject to various legal conditions and clearances.

In addition, Bain Capital entered into an agreement today with RHJ International, S.A. (RHJI), D&M Holdings’ largest shareholder, under which RHJI has agreed to tender all its shares (45,323,160 shares or approximately 48.5% of fully diluted shares outstanding) of D&M Holdings to Bain Capital.

Morgan Stanley Japan Securities Co., Ltd. is acting as financial advisor to D&M Holdings in this transaction. Additional information regarding the tender offer will be released when the details have been determined.


Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
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post #18 of 111 Old 09-22-2012, 11:42 AM
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No wonder Mitt Romney's 2011 income was about 20 millions
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post #19 of 111 Old 09-22-2012, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by afrogt View Post

I've heard the ICE amps are efficient, but what about the entry level non ICE receiver line?
The non D3 ( no longer ICE) amped Elites have faired pretty well with efficient speakers .
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post #20 of 111 Old 09-22-2012, 04:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The attached article should answer your questions.. cool.gif
Also I should mention that shortly thereafter, the USA organization was shredded and sized down by about 70%..
Denon Electronics Bought by Mitt Romney Corporation
by Clint DeBoer — last modified June 20, 2008

Mitt Romney Owns Denon
Missed it by that much. D&M Holdings Inc. (TSE 1:6735) and Bain Capital Partners LLC today announced that they have entered into an agreement, under which an acquisition corporation owned by investment funds advised by Bain Capital Partners LLC will launch a tender offer for all of the shares of D&M Holdings at a price of 510 yen per share of common stock.
To most people this will sound like "Denon Electronics purchased by blah blah blah blah blah..." but if you look into Bain Capital you will find that it has Mitt Romney as one of its principle founders back in 1984. We came this close to having a major electronics company at least partially owned by a Presidential Candidate. Oh well, those are the breaks... Bain Capital is also responsible for putting money behind Staples, Clear Channel Communications, Philips, Warner Music Group, Burger King, Home Depot, and Guitar Center (and a whole host of other high profile companies too lengthy to be listed here).
This price represents a premium of 37.1% over the average closing share price in the six months prior to June 19, 2008, and a premium of 68.9% over the unaffected closing share price on January 23, 2008, the day prior to the emergence of press speculation regarding a potential transaction involving the company. Following the completion of the tender offer process, the shares of D&M Holdings would be delisted from the Tokyo Stock Exchange.
If we read this correctly, Denon Electronics is now officially going to be an American company and go private.
“After an exhaustive review of strategic options, we have determined that this offer from Bain Capital represents the best overall value for our shareholders. The next few years should be an exciting time for D&M as we enter another phase in our development,” said Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Eric C. Evans. “If Bain Capital acquires D&M through the tender offer, we believe we will be better positioned as a privately held company to be more flexible in the fast-paced changing markets in which we compete. We will also have wider latitude to invest for medium- and long-term growth.”
Going forward, the Company intends to continue its active pursuit of acquisitions and growth in the consumer, commercial and automotive audio video businesses. D&M Holdings’ Board of Directors has agreed that the Bain Capital tender offer is in the best interests of the company. The Board of Directors will formally consider a resolution to recommend the tender offer to shareholders at the time the offer is launched.
The tender offer by Bain Capital is scheduled to be launched following the signing of the tender offer agreement. Bain Capital intends to purchase 100% of the shares of D&M Holdings. Any remaining outstanding shares would be obtained through subsequent the stages of the acquisition process. The entire process is subject to various legal conditions and clearances.
In addition, Bain Capital entered into an agreement today with RHJ International, S.A. (RHJI), D&M Holdings’ largest shareholder, under which RHJI has agreed to tender all its shares (45,323,160 shares or approximately 48.5% of fully diluted shares outstanding) of D&M Holdings to Bain Capital.
Morgan Stanley Japan Securities Co., Ltd. is acting as financial advisor to D&M Holdings in this transaction. Additional information regarding the tender offer will be released when the details have been determined.

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif

M Code,
Thanx. It does seem in addition to shedding employees, Denon AVR's certainly do not seem to weigh as much as they used to. The AVR-4520CI weighs 36lbs and is a 9 Channel AVR whereas the 7 Channel AVR-3805 weighs almost the same (37lbs). And cost half as much.
Cheers,
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post #21 of 111 Old 09-22-2012, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiodork View Post

M Code,
Thanx. It does seem in addition to shedding employees, Denon AVR's certainly do not seem to weigh as much as they used to. The AVR-4520CI weighs 36lbs and is a 9 Channel AVR whereas the 7 Channel AVR-3805 weighs almost the same (37lbs). And cost half as much.
Cheers,
AD

Keep in mind..
That the mentioned happenings affect all AVR brands not just Denon...
As the market pressed for lower and lower pricing plus the increasing penetration of Amazon, Walmart, E-Bay along with other internet sellers expanded the emphasis for lower AVR pricing changing the brand's product positioning of build-quality and sonic performance...
To one of cheaper and cheaper products of lower quality..

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
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post #22 of 111 Old 09-23-2012, 05:09 AM
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I've been very happy with my Yamaha RX-A3000. The newer RX-A3020 goes on sale the first week of October so there might be some deals coming up on last year's RX-A3010
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post #23 of 111 Old 09-23-2012, 07:17 AM
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So far our company has had great luck with the Pioneer Elites.
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post #24 of 111 Old 09-23-2012, 07:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Although there are always going to be a small % of units that slip through the QA process, unfortunately the 3310CI had three major issues which made it a bad purchase (1) defective NIC, (2) MSRP should have been $1199 (vice $1499) just as its predecessor 2809, and successors 3311,3312,3313 (3) Audyssey level was dropped from MultEQ XT to only MultEQ. However, disgarding a whole brand because of one defective model is like no longer patronizing a restaurant chain because you had a bad meal at one of their restaurants (without even trying any of the other meals). The 3312CI and newer 2313CI or 3313CI meet your feature and budget requirements as well as use the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ XT. Regarding your current 3310CI, before doing a micro reset, try simply unplugging the unit for 10 minutes. Also, if your unit is no longer covered by warranty, and any repair work is on your dime, you may be better served just investing in a newer AVR and just using the 3310CI for Zone 2 or 3 duties.
+1

I've had my AVR-3310 for quite some time, and never had a problem. It's been very reliable and sound quality is superb. Only reason I'm moving to AVR-3313 is for a few newly introduced features on it I find worth in having. AVR-3310 will then become a backup device to the AVR-3313.
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post #25 of 111 Old 09-23-2012, 08:45 AM
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I've still got 2 Denons each over a decade old.

In my main room I have the European version of the 5800 - 12 years old, used 2-3 hours per day, ventialtion above and behind, but none to the sides or below, still going strong.

In my second room I have a second hand European version of the 4800, used a lot less but still in A1 condition.

So my experiance of these Denons is they are built like tanks (and weight like them !)
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post #26 of 111 Old 09-23-2012, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdp99 View Post

I've still got 2 Denons each over a decade old.
In my main room I have the European version of the 5800 - 12 years old, used 2-3 hours per day, ventialtion above and behind, but none to the sides or below, still going strong.
In my second room I have a second hand European version of the 4800, used a lot less but still in A1 condition.
So my experiance of these Denons is they are built like tanks (and weight like them !)

The early Denon AVRs were built in Japan and to a different set of higher quality standards...
They don't have the latest/greatest AV features but should endure well if taken care of...

Just my $0.02.. wink.gif
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post #27 of 111 Old 09-23-2012, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by M Code View Post

The early Denon AVRs were built in Japan and to a different set of higher quality standards...
They don't have the latest/greatest AV features but should endure well if taken care of...
Just my $0.02.. wink.gif

Yep, my 2809 was built in Japan. It's been rock-solid since day 1. Zero complaints. I can't see replacing it for a long time.
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post #28 of 111 Old 09-23-2012, 05:02 PM
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I had a 3805 that worked pretty well for about 6 years before I upgraded. Sometimes you just get a bad unit. But if your heart is set on moving away from Denon, why not try looking into an Anthem MRX-300. During my upgrade process, I looked pretty hard at the MRX-300. I am pretty sure you can pick one up for a grand. wink.gif
Good luck...

Domino's donÂt fall all at once, they fall one at a time...
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post #29 of 111 Old 09-24-2012, 02:16 PM
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This is a big part of the reason you see so many people buying Pioneer. When Denon and Yamaha owners answer questions on reliability and sound quality with the suggestion that you have to buy a pretty expensive model to get peace of mind and adequate sound, there's something seriously wrong. Even Onkyo now only offers decent calibration on $850 models and up, with those below that range not so much as even having MultEQ. They're also another brand trying to recover from reliability issues.

When you look at the price you can get an Elite for and the features they have on them, it's pretty tough to expect people to want to pay upwards twice as much, unless for some reason they're very biased toward other brands and calibration software, and for the life of me I can't understand why, other than maybe easier menu navigation and more usable presets.

How many people seriously into good sound quality use presets a lot though? I also don't get the raves about Audyssey, mostly for how fine tunable it is. Doesn't that also mean it's auto calibration usually needs extra work, rather than doing a pretty good job on it's own? Pioneer may get a few of the little details wrong, but they get the main ones pretty right, including calibration. MCACC is not nearly as bad as Audyssey fanatics make it sound. In fact it's pretty damned good.
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post #30 of 111 Old 09-24-2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

This is a big part of the reason you see so many people buying Pioneer. When Denon and Yamaha owners answer questions on reliability and sound quality with the suggestion that you have to buy a pretty expensive model to get peace of mind and adequate sound, there's something seriously wrong.
Even Onkyo now only offers decent calibration on $850 models and up, with those below that range not so much as even having MultEQ. They're also another brand trying to recover from reliability issues.
When you look at the price you can get an Elite for and the features they have on them, it's pretty tough to expect people to want to pay upwards twice as much, unless for some reason they're very biased toward other brands, and for the life of me I can't understand why, other than maybe easier menu navigation and more usable presets. How many people seriously into good sound quality use presets a lot though?

Hey Guys, I think this is one of the most counter-productive threads ever. In post #2 I asked the OP to give some details on what went wrong with his Denon, but he never returned. He also mentioned that his wife is bored with always having to reset the microprocessor which I thought was not something chivalrous or gallant, the least to say. With this manner I'm not even sure his Denon went wrong! Go figure!

Nonetheless, to make a long story short, Murphy said what he said about things going wrong. Remember? smile.gif
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