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post #1 of 14 Old 09-30-2012, 07:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Just. Quick 2112ci sub question. I read that using the auto-setup that if the sub setting goes to -12 there you need to adjust and run the setup Again. Mine went to -12 and I moved it manually to -11.5 and it sounds really good. Do I need to do anything or am I ok?


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post #2 of 14 Old 09-30-2012, 07:33 PM
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You probably have very sensitive speakers - and a powerful sub. What Audyssey is doing is leveling everything out so no one part of the audio spectrum overwhelms you. You can either leave it as is or turn the gain on your sub down and rerun Audyssey. Since you like how it sounds why not leave it?

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post #3 of 14 Old 09-30-2012, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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that's what I plan to do but reading one of the web sites, it mentioned -12 was not good. I guess I'm ok


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post #4 of 14 Old 10-01-2012, 05:03 AM
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It's not okay. Rather you need to lower the volume on the sub and rerun Audyssey again until the sub trim results in a range of +/-3db, although doesn't have to be exact. You just want it closer to 0db than -12db. For more information click on the Audyssey 101/FAQ link in my sig.

Also note there is a dedicated thread for Denon AVR-XX12 owners linked in my sig as well.

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post #5 of 14 Old 10-01-2012, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djqwik View Post

Mine went to -12 and I moved it manually to -11.5 and it sounds really good. Do I need to do anything or am I ok?
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

It's not okay.

How is that not ok? After all its what pleases the listener - not what pleases Audyssey.

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post #6 of 14 Old 10-01-2012, 09:33 AM
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If the OP want's to effectively use Audyssey, then the sub level must be lowered. Refer to the Audyssey FAQ/101 linked in my sig for more information.

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post #7 of 14 Old 10-01-2012, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knucklehead90 View Post

How is that not ok? After all its what pleases the listener - not what pleases Audyssey.

IMO you are better off to get the sub properly calibrated and then if you want to bump it up do so. Barring a miracle, chances are the OP's sub as currently set needs a setting of less than -12 from the receiver, but it can't get there. If it's just a dB or 2, not probably a big deal, but if its more than that, things will be "out of whack" (although in a potentially pleasant way.) For me, dynamic EQ is the better way to get my bass up where it needs to be when I'm (almost always) playing well below reference. I'm also gnerally a proponent of trying the "proper" calibration for a week or so even if it initially seems bass shy. Those of us who "calibrated" by the seats of our pants in the past may have gotten used to sound that departs significantly from what the mixers and director heard. While turning down the sub to the "proper' level may decrease impact, it also may un-mask som good stuff in a soundtrack that was preveiously overwhelmed by a too-hot sub.

Again, IMO, it's best to know if you're departing from "flat" or "reference" and by how much. Once you know where technically correct is, everybody's ultimately free to choose their preference levels instead. Just better to know what departures you prefer if only so it's repeatable if you rearrange the room or get new speakers or sub . . .
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post #8 of 14 Old 10-01-2012, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

IMO you are better off to get the sub properly calibrated and then if you want to bump it up do so. Barring a miracle, chances are the OP's sub as currently set needs a setting of less than -12 from the receiver, but it can't get there. If it's just a dB or 2, not probably a big deal, but if its more than that, things will be "out of whack" (although in a potentially pleasant way.) For me, dynamic EQ is the better way to get my bass up where it needs to be when I'm (almost always) playing well below reference. I'm also gnerally a proponent of trying the "proper" calibration for a week or so even if it initially seems bass shy. Those of us who "calibrated" by the seats of our pants in the past may have gotten used to sound that departs significantly from what the mixers and director heard. While turning down the sub to the "proper' level may decrease impact, it also may un-mask som good stuff in a soundtrack that was preveiously overwhelmed by a too-hot sub.
Again, IMO, it's best to know if you're departing from "flat" or "reference" and by how much. Once you know where technically correct is, everybody's ultimately free to choose their preference levels instead. Just better to know what departures you prefer if only so it's repeatable if you rearrange the room or get new speakers or sub . . .

+1 to JHaz explanation.

Another approach to understanding the trim calibration settings was a Q&A with Chris Kyriakakis/Founder and CTO of Audyssey as follows:

Chris Kyriakakis: Audyssey measures the entire frequency response of each speaker. The chirps are "full range" even though it's hard to hear the low frequencies in the beginning. After that the energy under the 500-2k range is analyzed to produce an SPL estimate. The trim is the difference between that estimate and 75 dB SPL.

Q: How does that work with regard to subwoofer level...does Audyssey set the bass level using the lowest measured frequency and then make cuts to equalize the other frequencies? or does it use one particular frequency like the crossover as the reference?

Chris Kyriakakis: Same as above, but the range it looks over is 30-80 Hz.

Conclusion: Audyssey sets the trims to 75 dB at the MLP (Main Listening Position) with a test tone at -30 dBfs (band limited, 500 Hz - 2kHz for satellites, 30Hz - 80Hz for sub). In case of Denon a +/- 12 dB tolerance is allocated for Audyssey. Should the trim level for the sub be out of this range the gain knob on the back side of the sub should be adjusted accordingly, i.e. trim over +12 dB -> sub gain up, while trim below -12 dB -> sub gain down.
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post #9 of 14 Old 10-02-2012, 06:12 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't get it.. the sub is a floor firing sub and is behind a wall with a grate. Last night I tried lowering the volume and still got -12 but it sounds really good. I doth see why this is a nono ... I know what the FAQ says... But IMO it sound great... In fact the sub sounds better then when I used my old hk receiver....

Can someone explain in plain English why having it at -12 and moving it back to -15 isn't ok? Most people probably would not even look at the levels after the auto setup finished....

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post #10 of 14 Old 10-02-2012, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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following suggestions and the web site, I set the sub to 120hz as the FAQ said To. I dont think the sub hits as hard. Should I set it to something else and run auto setup?


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Edit... I changed to 100hz and ran setup... Lowered sub volume but still -12 no matter how low i set sub volume... Sounds good though... Set it at 11.5 tonight after a rerun of setup. Also auto setup configured front speakers to large and surround to small even though they are all exactly same speaker. Sounds good so I guess it's ok....
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post #11 of 14 Old 10-03-2012, 02:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djqwik View Post

I don't get it.. the sub is a floor firing sub and is behind a wall with a grate. Last night I tried lowering the volume and still got -12 but it sounds really good. I doth see why this is a nono ... I know what the FAQ says... But IMO it sound great... In fact the sub sounds better then when I used my old hk receiver....
Can someone explain in plain English why having it at -12 and moving it back to -15 isn't ok? Most people probably would not even look at the levels after the auto setup finished....
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When you run Audyssey, the AVR is calibrating the speakers and sub to put out a minimum of 85db at the main listening point (mic #1 position) when the master volume is set to 0db. Speakers and subs that are very efficient or subs that are located in a corner or against a wall must have their volume lowered to attain that 85db level. Your sub is putting out too much bass in its current location so may have to be lowered all the way to it's lowest level (eg. 1 out of 10) to acheive the proper bass level the mixer intended you to hear. When the sub trim is maxed out at -12db, it's unknown whether even more attenuation is required to achieve the proper reference level, so adjusting the sub volume knob lower until it indicates something other than -12db ensures it's attenuated enough, while a setting closer to 0db (as opposed to -12db) also ensures a strong enough signal is sent to turn the sub ON. Many owners who are used to the bloated bass from older model receivers initially find the bass too low when properly adjusted to "reference" levels, although after a few weeks of listening at that level, often prefer it. If after allowing a few weeks to adjust you still prefer more bass, simply use the "CH LVL" button on the remote to boost the sub +5db or so higher.

Also note the "LPF for LFE" setting should be left at the factory default of 120hz to allow the full LFE signal to pass through to the sub.

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post #12 of 14 Old 10-03-2012, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djqwik View Post

I don't get it.. the sub is a floor firing sub and is behind a wall with a grate. Last night I tried lowering the volume and still got -12 but it sounds really good. I doth see why this is a nono ... I know what the FAQ says... But IMO it sound great... In fact the sub sounds better then when I used my old hk receiver....
Can someone explain in plain English why having it at -12 and moving it back to -15 isn't ok? Most people probably would not even look at the levels after the auto setup finished....
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When you run Audyssey, the AVR is calibrating the speakers and sub to put out a minimum of 85db at the main listening point (mic #1 position) when the master volume is set to 0db. Speakers and subs that are very efficient or subs that are located in a corner or against a wall must have their volume lowered to attain that 85db level. Your sub is putting out too much bass in its current location so may have to be lowered all the way to it's lowest level (eg. 1 out of 10) to acheive the proper bass level the mixer intended you to hear. When the sub trim is maxed out at -12db, it's unknown whether even more attenuation is required to achieve the proper reference level, so adjusting the sub volume knob lower until it indicates something other than -12db ensures it's attenuated enough, while a setting closer to 0db (as opposed to -12db) also ensures a strong enough signal is sent to turn the sub ON. Many owners who are used to the bloated bass from older model receivers initially find the bass too low when properly adjusted to "reference" levels, although after a few weeks of listening at that level, often prefer it. If after allowing a few weeks to adjust you still prefer more bass, simply use the "CH LVL" button on the remote to boost the sub +5db or so higher.

Also note the "LPF for LFE" setting should be left at the factory default of 120hz to allow the full LFE signal to pass through to the sub.


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Today i turned it down. Now it no longer at -12 but you can't hear any bass because this is. Floor firing sub and shouldn't be behind. Wall ... I turned it back up some but now it's back to -12. Also it set Italy 100 hz lfe which is what the sub is set at... At the highest setting on they it sounds awful.
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post #13 of 14 Old 10-04-2012, 04:23 AM
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Once the sub trim is set lower than -12db (and closer to 0db), if you prefer more bass, you can raise the sub volume using the "Subwoofer Level" setting in the AVR GUI (although it's recommended you leave it as is for a few weeks to see if you can adjust to the bass level as the mixer intended). Also note, the frequency knob on the sub should be set to it's maximum value. If lowering the LPF for LFE from 120hz to 100hz makes a noticeable "desireable" difference, then leave it at the lower setting. In the end, regardless of what is "recommended", the setup is yours to configure as you choose. smile.gif

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post #14 of 14 Old 10-04-2012, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Once the sub trim is set lower than -12db (and closer to 0db), if you prefer more bass, you can raise the sub volume using the "Subwoofer Level" setting in the AVR GUI (although it's recommended you leave it as is for a few weeks to see if you can adjust to the bass level as the mixer intended). Also note, the frequency knob on the sub should be set to it's maximum value. If lowering the LPF for LFE from 120hz to 100hz makes a noticeable "desireable" difference, then leave it at the lower setting. In the end, regardless of what is "recommended", the setup is yours to configure as you choose. smile.gif

Ok thanks... It sounds good as currently setup, so I'll leave as is for now...


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