Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 103 - AVS Forum
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post #3061 of 12174 Old 02-19-2013, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

But I find that LFE in the 100-120 Hz region is just a lot of boominess that unfortunately too often clouds the deeper bass in the bottom 2 octaves. Setting the LFE filter to 80 Hz does a dandy job of dealing with that boominess IMHO.

In addition, I have found that 5.1 music recordings are not well disciplined in their use of LFE, leading to muddiness that is even more annoying. Again, the 80 Hz LFE filter setting really helps the bass knit together more cohesively.

It's something folks are free to experiment with, and I encourage some exploration of this as one's system becomes more finely tuned.

Interesting Roger, will experiment with that...at least it sounds like a setting change I might be able to hear! smile.gif

Thanks


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post #3062 of 12174 Old 02-19-2013, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

While I do not have an 8801, my processor has a similar function as LFE+Main, but I do not use it. I use regular bass management, all speakers crossed over at 80 Hz, and the LFE filter is set to 80 Hz. That these are the same frequency is a coincidence.

Same setup for movies and music, except for some subwoofer gain offsets between them.



That's how I have mine set now. What Hz do you have your other speakers set at? Right now mine are at 40 Hz. If I set my crossover for LFE at 80Hz shouldn't I set them all to 80Hz? I appreciate your answers, thanks.
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post #3063 of 12174 Old 02-19-2013, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post While I do not have an 8801, my processor has a similar function as LFE+Main, but I do not use it. I use regular bass management, all speakers crossed over at 80 Hz, and the LFE filter is set to 80 Hz. That these are the same frequency is a coincidence.

Same setup for movies and music, except for some subwoofer gain offsets between them.

 

Hello Roger I find interesting that you cross over your speakers at 80HZ even the large ones!


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post #3064 of 12174 Old 02-19-2013, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

That's how I have mine set now. What Hz do you have your other speakers set at? Right now mine are at 40 Hz. If I set my crossover for LFE at 80Hz shouldn't I set them all to 80Hz? I appreciate your answers, thanks.
I have the mains crossed over at 80 Hz. But that has nothing to do with choosing 80 Hz for the LFE filter. Where you choose the crossover for the main speakers does not change the fact that you will still hear the entire channel of audio. Just a matter of when the subwoofer takes over. So you should feel no pressure to change your mains from 40 Hz simply because of the LFE filter choice, particularly if 40 Hz is the optimal choice for them.
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Hello Roger I find interesting that you cross over your speakers at 80 Hz even the large ones!
Because I am in a smallish room, with nasty bass modes, I wanted the 4 subs and BassQ to carry as much bass as possible without collapsing the spatial image.

Roger

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post #3065 of 12174 Old 02-19-2013, 11:59 PM
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Is Kal's review out yet?

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post #3066 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 12:54 AM
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Yes!
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Where? I couldn't find it?

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post #3068 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

Where? I couldn't find it?

Its in the March issue in Kal's " Music in the Round" on page 47.
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Originally Posted by mankite View Post

Where? I couldn't find it?

Unless you are referring to the online version. That usually goes up in a few months after the print edition.
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post #3070 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I have the mains crossed over at 80 Hz. But that has nothing to do with choosing 80 Hz for the LFE filter. Where you choose the crossover for the main speakers does not change the fact that you will still hear the entire channel of audio. Just a matter of when the subwoofer takes over. So you should feel no pressure to change your mains from 40 Hz simply because of the LFE filter choice, particularly if 40 Hz is the optimal choice for them.
Because I am in a smallish room, with nasty bass modes, I wanted the 4 subs and BassQ to carry as much bass as possible without collapsing the spatial image.



Roger thanks for clearing this up for me, I needed someone to explain this for me. The crossover thing was always something I needed to address but stayed away from. I'm waiting on my center channel to be delivered and I want to run Audyssey (first time) Will Audyssey set the crossovers for all my speakers individually? I did quite a bit asking on here and the Revel thread, and hard listening to get to the point I'm at with my setup. If I don't like Audyssey's sound, so to speak, is the rule of thumb to find out how low all my speakers go down and set the crossovers to that number, or as close as I can get?
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post #3071 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Will Audyssey set the crossovers for all my speakers individually? I did quite a bit asking on here and the Revel thread, and hard listening to get to the point I'm at with my setup. If I don't like Audyssey's sound, so to speak, is the rule of thumb to find out how low all my speakers go down and set the crossovers to that number, or as close as I can get?
Audyssey talks to the bass management in the AV processor, and it decides how to set the crossovers. There is a lot of intricacies to consider in how to optimize crossovers for Audyssey, so I'd suggest looking in the Audyssey thread's setup guide.

Roger

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post #3072 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Audyssey talks to the bass management in the AV processor, and it decides how to set the crossovers. There is a lot of intricacies to consider in how to optimize crossovers for Audyssey, so I'd suggest looking in the Audyssey thread's setup guide.



Roger, thank you for helping me out with this, it is much appreciated.
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post #3073 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 07:06 AM
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It appears that video settings are remembered per input section.
Meaning Blu-ray and Cable/Sat have independant settings but the HDMI / Analog, etc input sectors for each import are shared.

FYI,

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post #3074 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geronimo.USMC View Post

To settle this once & for all, do you think that it would be possible for you to do REE measurements & post your findings/graphs?

I cannot measure in room response.
However, at the wall socket switching the Video Mode from Game to Auto consumes an addition watt.
I believe I have discovered how to truly turn off the video processor and it improves the sound quality.
This clearly affects the output stage so I would expect that Audyssey adjustments may restore what is lost.

I recommend to anyone who felt the sounds was thin or overly bright should try these settings.
Also recommened if you want Pure Direct to be Purer and Directer smile.gif

After some additional critical two channel listening Pure Direct from the Oppo BDP-105, on my system the difference is not subtle.
After this change, I have discovered this in indeed reference processor I thought it might be.

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post #3075 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I cannot measure in room response.
However, at the wall socket switching the Video Mode from Game to Auto consumes an addition watt.
I believe I have discovered how to truly turn off the video processor and it improves the sound quality.
This clearly affects the output stage so I would expect that Audyssey adjustments may restore what is lost.

I recommend to anyone who felt the sounds was thin or overly bright should try these settings.
Also recommened if you want Pure Direct to be Purer and Directer smile.gif

After some additional critical two channel listening Pure Direct from the Oppo BDP-105, on my system the difference is not subtle.
After this change, I have discovered this in indeed reference processor I thought it might be.

- Rich
Gaming modes on electronics are there to basically shut off video processing to get rid of lag in timing sensitive games, so you might be onto something in noticing the difference in energy expenditure.

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post #3076 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I cannot measure in room response.
However, at the wall socket switching the Video Mode from Game to Auto consumes an addition watt.
I believe I have discovered how to truly turn off the video processor and it improves the sound quality.
This clearly affects the output stage so I would expect that Audyssey adjustments may restore what is lost.

I recommend to anyone who felt the sounds was thin or overly bright should try these settings.
Also recommened if you want Pure Direct to be Purer and Directer smile.gif

After some additional critical two channel listening Pure Direct from the Oppo BDP-105, on my system the difference is not subtle.
After this change, I have discovered this in indeed reference processor I thought it might be.

- Rich

Rich,

What preamp to amp connection (XLR or RCA) do you like the most?

- Alex
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post #3077 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 08:18 AM
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Originally Posted by AlxG View Post

Rich,

What preamp to amp connection (XLR or RCA) do you like the most?

I was running XLR and I am currently running RCA.
RCA sounds so good, I am not sure it makes any difference with my Sunfire (which is not a balanced amp anyway).

Generally, I use XLR because they will reject noise and lock in place.
I will go back to XLR once the two additional cables arrive from Monoprice (mine were different lengths and I wanted to clean things up a bit).

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post #3078 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I was running XLR and I am currently running RCA.
RCA sounds so good, I am not sure it makes any difference with my Sunfire (which is not a balanced amp anyway).

Generally, I use XLR because they will reject noise and lock in place.
I will go back to XLR once the two additional cables arrive from Monoprice (mine were different lengths and I wanted to clean things up a bit).

- Rich

I agree, XLR makes a nice locking connection.

I was looking at Monoprice XLR cables, I wish they had per-cut 4' Y-splitter cables like the Blue Jean cables.

- Alex
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For anyone that is interested, I found a source for the Marantz Rack kits that have been discontinued. I'm not sure how many are left but the price is great. Send me a PM and I will give the link.
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Originally Posted by AlxG View Post

I agree, XLR makes a nice locking connection.

I was looking at Monoprice XLR cables, I wish they had per-cut 4' Y-splitter cables like the Blue Jean cables.

I picked up some XLR Y's to try Bi-amp my Revels with the two extra amps in Sunfire 7400.
I since went back and the Oppo BDP-105 (Pure Direct, Video Conversion: OFF, and Video Mode: Game) the sound is wonderful.

I do not think I going to bother going back to bi-amping because it requires splitting the signal and I seldom listen above 95 DB average so my amps are not strained.

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post #3081 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 08:57 AM
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Hi Rich

I have tried what you have posted, at least with HDMI, and cannot for the life of me hear any difference with these video modes on or off at this point. And my dealer openly calls me a pain in the ass for the number of issues I uncover with all the gear I buy from him!

Re: Video conversion/modes - Tried various sources, and had someone change the options without me seeing what was active/inactive. No differences whatsoever. I'm not being argumentative, and you seem like a super nice guy, but without multiple reports of the same issue, or, at this point, without some measurable comparison, not sure what more can be gained on this.

Re: Different Inputs - I'm not sure, but are you expecting MCH analog in and other interfaces to sound exactly the same given all other settings being "equal"? I don't think that's the right expectation. MCH analog in has no A/D/A conversion, so it (theoretically) passes through nothing but the (analog) volume control. For HDMI, even in Pure Direct,, there is D/A conversion, so there is some level of digital domain processing going on. If anything maybe you're hearing a difference in the 8801's DAC in or out of the chain, or distance controls being in affect vs analog (where they are not). And using the Oppo 105 direct to your amp changes the volume domain to a completely different device, so its difficult to ascertain the differences introduced.

Also, you're using the 8801 in a way that likely well over 90% of the buyers here would not - MCH analog in with no Audyssey. That's your preference, and no issues with that, but it is tough to gain traction on this since so few (I'm presuming) are doing the same.

I have emailed my contact at Marantz to see what he can clarify regarding the differences between the analog multi channel inputs vs others.

I do hear a difference having the 8801 process my two channel audio (via digital out from my Mac Mini) vs USB through the McIntosh D100 to XLR analog inputs on the 8801, but there are tons of other things different than just which DAC is being used (among them, Direct/Integer asynchronous USB out to the D100 and the 8-channel quad stereo balanced deployment of the ESS Sabre in the the D100) , so I cannot make any reasonable comparative assessment that way.

I still have the odd disappearing OSD issues (seemingly related to frequent resolutions changes from native mode on my DirecTV), but have refrained from posting further on the topic since no one else seems to be experiencing it, and am dealing with Marantz directly. If others post similar issues, I would chime in again.

Having said this, I will see if I have time this weekend to connect the RCA outs from McIntosh D100 DAC or Oppo 103 to the MCH 7.1 analog inputs on the 8801, and compare with the HDMI (Oppo) and Analog XLR inputs (Oppo/D100) on the 8801. Nonetheless, it wouldn't surprise me if there were small differences, given the straight analog vs D/A path of the different approaches. But you're even saying there are differences between COAX and HDMI? AKAIK, they would be passing through the same D/A path, so at the moment, this does not compute.


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post #3082 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Hi Rich

I have tried what you have posted, at least with HDMI, and cannot for the life of me hear any difference with these video modes on or off at this point. And my dealer openly calls me a pain in the ass for the number of issues I uncover with all the gear I buy from him!

Re: Video conversion/modes - Tried various sources, and had someone change the options without me seeing what was active/inactive. No differences whatsoever. I'm not being argumentative, and you seem like a super nice guy, but without multiple reports of the same issue, or, at this point, without some measurable comparison, not sure what more can be gained on this.

Re: Different Inputs - I'm not sure, but are you expecting MCH analog in and other interfaces to sound exactly the same given all other settings being "equal"? I don't think that's the right expectation. MCH analog in has no A/D/A conversion, so it (theoretically) passes through nothing but the (analog) volume control. For HDMI, even in Pure Direct,, there is D/A conversion, so there is some level of digital domain processing going on. If anything maybe you're hearing a difference in the 8801's DAC in or out of the chain, or distance controls being in affect vs analog (where they are not). And using the Oppo 105 direct to your amp changes the volume domain to a completely different device, so its difficult to ascertain the differences introduced.

Also, you're using the 8801 in a way that likely well over 90% of the buyers here would not - MCH analog in with no Audyssey. That's your preference, and no issues with that, but it is tough to gain traction on this since so few (I'm presuming) are doing the same.

I have emailed my contact at Marantz to see what he can clarify regarding the differences between the analog multi channel inputs vs others.

I do hear a difference having the 8801 process my two channel audio (via digital out from my Mac Mini) vs USB through the McIntosh D100 to XLR analog inputs on the 8801, but there are tons of other things different than just which DAC is being used (among them, Direct/Integer asynchronous USB out to the D100 and the 8-channel quad stereo balanced deployment of the ESS Sabre in the the D100) , so I cannot make any reasonable comparative assessment that way.

I still have the odd disappearing OSD issues (seemingly related to frequent resolutions changes from native mode on my DirecTV), but have refrained from posting further on the topic since no one else seems to be experiencing it, and am dealing with Marantz directly. If others post similar issues, I would chime in again.

Having said this, I will see if I have time this weekend to connect the RCA outs from McIntosh D100 DAC or Oppo 103 to the MCH 7.1 analog inputs on the 8801, and compare with the HDMI (Oppo) and Analog XLR inputs (Oppo/D100) on the 8801. Nonetheless, it wouldn't surprise me if there were small differences, given the straight analog vs D/A path of the different approaches. But you're even saying there are differences between COAX and HDMI? AKAIK, they would be passing through the same D/A path, so at the moment, this does not compute.

I am at a loss to explain this because it is not a subtle differnce and your B&W's are great speakers.
Are you using the Web Control panel to swtich between them?

Once set, I can change using the Video Page of the Web Controller to change only the Video Mode while playing content.
If using the Menus, there is no change until you exit the output menu.
If there is no intrerruption in the sound, you are not really changing anything so it is not a valid test.
When I use the control panel, the change is obvious.

When comparing HDMI and COAX, I have programmed my remote to switch the inputs while listening.
I think it would be far more difficult to compare them using the on-sceen menus.

- Rich

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post #3083 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I am at a loss to explain this because it is not a subtle differnce and your B&W's are great speakers.
Are you using the Web Control panel to swtich between them?

Once set, I can change using the Video Page of the Web Controller to change only the Video Mode while playing content.
If using the Menus, there is no change until you exit the output menu.
If there is no intrerruption in the sound, you are not really changing anything so it is not a valid test.
When I use the control panel, the change is obvious.

When comparing HDMI and COAX, I have programmed my remote to switch the inputs while listening.
I think it would be far more difficult to compare them using the on-sceen menus.

- Rich

I am using the iPad via the 8801 web interface, and yes there is a brief interruption.


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post #3084 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post

I am using the iPad via the 8801 web interface, and yes there is a brief interruption.

Are all your other HDMI settings off, Pass-though, Control, and lip-sync?

- Rich

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post #3085 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 09:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

... But I find that LFE in the 100-120 Hz region is just a lot of boominess that unfortunately too often clouds the deeper bass in the bottom 2 octaves. Setting the LFE filter to 80 Hz does a dandy job of dealing with that boominess IMHO...

Gotta agree with you Roger...

...although I normally have the LFE filter in the AVR set between 100~120Hz, sometimes it gets too boomy indeed, so I trim it down to 80~90Hz, though. That - IMO - depends on how the movie/concert has been recorded, so you'll have the flexibility of trimming down the volume, or even the LFE filter on the AVR, if necessary.

You know what, regardless of what Audyssey says, I always set the volume of the LFE channel on the AVR at 0dB and I just leave it that way. I f I want more/less bass, all I gotta do is trim up/down the SW's knob (normally at 10:00 position) and I'm done. Furthermore, the sole reason for doing such is to keep the AVR's output level from overloading the input stage of the SW's amplifier and also to keep the noise level below audibility, though.

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I'm about to ditch my old Lexicon mc12b / Audyssey pro external processor combo for the AV-8801, but am driving myself nuts searching this forum for the answer to the following question: Does the DSX implementation use both the heights and widths SIMULTANEOUSLY if available? My confusion come from the following statement in the manual:
"When using Audyssey DSX®, install front wide speakers or front height speakers.
When using Dolby Pro Logic gz, install front height speakers."

The first line seems to imply that I might only have a choice of front wide or height speakers but not both.

Thanks!

P.S. (and another quick question - I assume if I buy the pro license then I will get pro-level Audyssey equivalent to the outboard unit I have. In other words, 32 microphone test points vs. 8?
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post #3087 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeGlover View Post

I'm about to ditch my old Lexicon mc12b / Audyssey pro external processor combo for the AV-8801, but am driving myself nuts searching this forum for the answer to the following question: Does the DSX implementation use both the heights and widths SIMULTANEOUSLY if available? My confusion come from the following statement in the manual:
"When using Audyssey DSX®, install front wide speakers or front height speakers.
When using Dolby Pro Logic gz, install front height speakers."

The first line seems to imply that I might only have a choice of front wide or height speakers but not both.

Thanks!

P.S. (and another quick question - I assume if I buy the pro license then I will get pro-level Audyssey equivalent to the outboard unit I have. In other words, 32 microphone test points vs. 8?

Yes, DSX gives you width and heights simultaneously

Yes, Pro gives you the additional test points, customizable curves, and, I believe, additional filters/resolution.


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post #3088 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeGlover View Post

I'm about to ditch my old Lexicon mc12b / Audyssey pro external processor combo for the AV-8801, but am driving myself nuts searching this forum for the answer to the following question: Does the DSX implementation use both the heights and widths SIMULTANEOUSLY if available? My confusion come from the following statement in the manual:
"When using Audyssey DSX®, install front wide speakers or front height speakers.
When using Dolby Pro Logic gz, install front height speakers."

The first line seems to imply that I might only have a choice of front wide or height speakers but not both.

Thanks!

P.S. (and another quick question - I assume if I buy the pro license then I will get pro-level Audyssey equivalent to the outboard unit I have. In other words, 32 microphone test points vs. 8?

DPLIIz = 9.1 using only heights
DSX or NEO:X = 11.1 using heights and fronts

So you can't use DPLIIz for wides, but DSX or NEO:X will work.
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post #3089 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 01:09 PM
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post #3090 of 12174 Old 02-20-2013, 01:56 PM
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In the Hometheater review, the frequency response using analog inputs in Direct mode is essentially flat to 50KHz. With "signal processing" they measure:
–1.23 dB at 10 Hz
–0.39 dB at 20 Hz
–0.21 dB at 20 kHz
–15.78 dB at 50 kHz

What does this suggest about the sampling frequency of the A/D that occurs when one wants to engage any type of DSP? We can't really tell the bit depth from such a measurement but can we infer a sampling frequency of at least 88.1K?

Some would say just try your vinyl through the phono inputs and your tape through the analogs and see how it sounds. I think it would be interesting to know the quality of the digitization that the 8801 performs on analog sources.
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Ken Kreisel Dxd 12012 Subwoofer , Marantz Av8801 , Receivers Amplifiers , Audyssey , Integra
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