Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 109 - AVS Forum
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post #3241 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 02:02 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

...snip...

After the 200'th teal colored movie, doesn't it cease to become creative?

- Rich

If you've seen 200 teal colored movies, maybe it's time to get your display/projector recalibrated.

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post #3242 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 05:35 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

^^^

I recommend this:

Find a way to get a ethernet cable to your components.
It eliminates all kinds of troubles that some folks have with wireless bandwidth.
You'll got done sooner.

Connect:

Oppo -> (7.1 or HDM) -> Marantz - > Amp Speakers
Panasonic -> Marantz (woud can use ARC for sound decing apps on your Panny).

Chances are the Oppo or the Marantz can run the streaming music much better than the Panny.
Use the Panny for only Panny only options.

- Rich

Anything to be gained or lost using either HDMI or 7.1 ? Processing, bass management, room correction etc?
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post #3243 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbes View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Please provide audio graphs showing this effect and describe the equipment and procedures you used to generate them so others can determine if they're seeing it with their equipment. I suspect reviewers aren't mentioning it because it isn't showing up in their measurements.

This (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1443125/using-dual-31band-eqs-for-lcr-to-give-audyssey-a-head-start/30#post_22687873) post by beastaudio is very similar to my findings. Look at the rise in response from 200-2500 hz. This leads to vocals sounding a bit nasal and violins not having their full body and a bit fatiguing. I have experimented with three different systems in three different locations. Speakers used have been RBH SX-6300 with a Denon 3313, Paradigm S8 with Marantz AV 8801, and also Anat III with the Marantz AV 8801 substituted in for some "higher end equipment." The relative results are the same with all systems when comparing direct to stereo.

Note that this is a 8db broad rise in response over 2+ octaves.

The reviews that I am looking at do not measure the output of stereo mode, only direct mode. Which only confirms that an Integra sounds the same as a Marantz when played in direct mode and they also measure the same!

By switching to Stereo (turning off Direct), you have enabled all of the internal digital processing capabilities of the unit. There is no way to predict what that will do to the sound. The characteristics of the resulting sound depend on what features are enabled (some are enabled by default and some aren't, differing from one manufacturer and model to another) and what configurations and calibrations, if any, have been done for them. For example, there are the "Dynamic ..." effects which vary depending on the volume level setting. There also are effects due to crossovers, speaker levels, graphic or parametric equalizer settings, Audyssey, etc.

When processing is enabled, you have to take responsibility for what happens to the sound. The owner's manual describes what you can make it do, not what you should make it do.

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post #3244 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

If you've seen 200 teal colored movies, maybe it's time to get your display/projector recalibrated.

OK, I exaggerate.

Did you watch Skyfall, that was not earth. smile.gif

- Rich

P.S. It has been 125 point calibrated using the Lumagen Mini. This is another reason I turn off the video processor.

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post #3245 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 07:30 AM
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RichB

Which display?

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post #3246 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 07:51 AM
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I've experimented a lot with my set up, and to say crossing at 80 is best is a somewhat limited view.

I don't think anyone really said that. Perhaps a good starting point, but certainly not just a blanket "best" scenario.

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post #3247 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

If you've seen 200 teal colored movies, maybe it's time to get your display/projector recalibrated.

Jim,

Teal and Orange are the predominant post-production color shadings these days in virtually every damn movie. There were at least 200 in the past 24 months alone. Hell, the even did it to the 3D redo of Top Gun!

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post #3248 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Jim,

Teal and Orange are the predominant post-production color shadings these days in virtually every damn movie. There were at least 200 in the past 24 months alone. Hell, the even did it to the 3D redo of Top Gun!

Sooner or later, making all action movies look the same will be understood as not creative.
My other pet peeve, is when the tell you what happened in the past instead of showing it to you.
"Bad Robot" productions does the back-story very well.

They did this in Skyfall. Let me tell you what M did to me...Seriously, its a movie, show me..

OK, I am done with my off-topic rant smile.gif

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post #3249 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 10:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbes View Post

In response to Kal regarding the linked post, If you look at the first graph in post #59 starting at 300 hz it measures 80 db, at 2500 hz it measures 88 db with the first two octaves staying above 85 db a dip starting at 1200 then a sharp rise back up at 2500 hz. This contributes to the forward presentation of the music as it approaches our hearings most sensitive area.

Hmm.  I do not see that at all.  You seem to be choosing the bottom of a trough in the response as your reference while I see a relatively flat response above the trough.  

 

900x900px-LL-e3e65efb_12-10Noaudysseypre-eq.jpeg

 

My interpretation of this curve is of an elevated response below 200Hz and a relatively flat response (+/-5dB) from 200Hz to 4kHz with a soft roll-off above that.  I do not think the ear/brain will hear the "rise" you describe.   

 

For clarification, btw, is this an acoustic measurement? If so, it is not possible to ascribe this to an inherent FR influence of the prepro without a control.  The only way to make your case for an FR aberration in the Marantz would be to avoid amp/speaker/room influences with direct electrical measurements from the output jacks.


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post #3250 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 10:32 AM
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Since it is my graph, I will be happy to describe what I did there. I took the time to look at where I could make cuts initially to bring everything into line a little better. I wanted to attempt at making cuts only, no boosting, so as to not need to change the overall gain structure. Where I ended up cutting IIRC was between 1-200hz, and 2-2500hz and just barely the one at 6khz. after that I put a minimal amount of boost at 3-400hz and at 1.2 but total it was less than 5dB. it made for a very nice presentation to my ears, and I knew it was the closest I had gotten to reference flat so it was nice to really hear what that was all about.

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post #3251 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Since it is my graph, I will be happy to describe what I did there. I took the time to look at where I could make cuts initially to bring everything into line a little better. I wanted to attempt at making cuts only, no boosting, so as to not need to change the overall gain structure. Where I ended up cutting IIRC was between 1-200hz, and 2-2500hz and just barely the one at 6khz. after that I put a minimal amount of boost at 3-400hz and at 1.2 but total it was less than 5dB. it made for a very nice presentation to my ears, and I knew it was the closest I had gotten to reference flat so it was nice to really hear what that was all about.

I have no argument with your graph or your use of it to improve on the in-room system FR.  My objection is to Hobbes' using this data to say that the 8801 has an inherently non-flat FR.   


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post #3252 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

I'm not clear on whether to use LFE or LFE+Main.

I have my Aerial Acoustics LR5's set to small, crossed over at 80 hz to my seaton submersive subwoofer. My LPF is set to 80 hz.

If I DON'T use LFE+ Main does that mean that frequencies below 80hz from my main speakers are lost? Don't some movie mixes have no bass in the LFE?

Friendly bump....

I think my question may have got buried in the surrounding conversation.

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post #3253 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 11:08 AM
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I will be running the pre-out loopbacks probably tonight so I can prove that definitively one way or the other quite soon enough.

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post #3254 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 11:11 AM
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If you have bass management enabled (all speakers set to Small), LFE+MAIN does nothing. All of the low frequencies below the crossover frequencies have been removed from the speaker channels and redirected to the subwoofer.

If you do not have bass management enabled (some or all speakers set to Large), LFE+MAIN will cause an enhancement of the frequencies where the speakers and subwoofer overlap -- those frequencies below the crossover frequency and above the lowest frequencies that your speakers can provide.

In other words, there is no appropriate use of LFE+MAIN if you want accurate audio reproduction. Many people do enjoy hearing the enhanced bass that it provides, though. As I've mentioned before, this is the "preference" vs. "reference" dichotomy.
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post #3255 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Friendly bump....

I think my question may have got buried in the surrounding conversation.

No it doesn't mean they are "lost" jsut redirected to the sub channel. bump your LFE low pass back to 120hz though to start out, and adjust to taste. so XO point for mains, 80hz LPF for LFE at 120hz. and then mess with speaker's XO points and leave LPF LFE alone at first. LFE+Main is already happening as all your speakers are set to small and the bass is being redirected to your subs to start with. LFE+Main only applies if your LCR's are set to Large
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post #3256 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 11:15 AM
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Ha, right on SB, beat me to it smile.gif

SO is there anyway from the remote to quickly turn dynamic eq, and even Audyssey altogether on and off? how about quick speaker level adjustments? I had this on my 4311 remote and LOVED it, I am REALLY really missing it right now while I am tuning my system. It is a huge pain to go into the menu's each time I need to make a quick adjustment...

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post #3257 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 11:18 AM
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to provide more specific answers....
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

I'm not clear on whether to use LFE or LFE+Main.

I have my Aerial Acoustics LR5's set to small, crossed over at 80 hz to my seaton submersive subwoofer. My LPF is set to 80 hz.

If I DON'T use LFE+ Main does that mean that frequencies below 80hz from my main speakers are lost?
No. All frequencies below the crossover frequency already are being diverted to the subwoofer. LFE+MAIN copies the frequencies below the crossover from the speaker channels to the subwoofer. Since those frequencies already been removed from the "small" channels (that's what is done by setting them to "Small" and thus enabling bass management), there's nothing left to copy again.
Quote:
Don't some movie mixes have no bass in the LFE?
Correct. That's also true for many multichannel music recordings. But setting the speakers to "small" takes care of that. The low frequencies below the crossover frequencies have been diverted to the subwoofer.

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post #3258 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 11:21 AM
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beastaudio,

If you hold down the Movie or Music buttons on the remote for a few seconds, you'll get another popup menu with more options. I don't recall what they are right now, though.

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post #3259 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 12:13 PM
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My goal in listening to music is match the reference of a live performance orchestra at my two local concert halls. That is, I want to be transported to the particular place where a recording took place. The house that we purchased met certain acoustical properties that would make this endeavor easier. Post and beam construction, in which the interior walls do not support the structure and allowed me to tailor them for the best acoustical properties in reproduced sound with the best synergy possible with my chosen components.

I am aware that when using stereo mode processing can be taking place. My original reply was an observation as to what the AV8801 was doing to the sound with all possible dsp turned off. My 80.2 sounds the same in Direct mode and stereo mode with said settings turned off. I can do 2.1 with stereo mode and all processing turned off. Not so with the Marantz.

Kal, the purpose of our pursuit of sound is to have the best possible. To me that means the "correct sound," not colored. The reference standard is set. Audessey sets a reference curve that it tries to meet through its processing. Whether it is Integra or Marantz the curve is the same. But, Marantz is preprocessing that curve and therefore coloring the sound to its specification in its final output. The control is stereo vs direct mode. Of which both the Marantz and the Integra sound and measure the same in room measurements.

As far as your interpretation of that curve, you can assume it will not be heard, But it flies in the face of testing done by Toole and Olive done in 2002. From your review of the 8801 you stated that it had slightly better clarity in the midrange than the 80.2. I felt the same on early listening. This falls in the range that I was referencing in the graph.
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post #3260 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

beastaudio,

If you hold down the Movie or Music buttons on the remote for a few seconds, you'll get another popup menu with more options. I don't recall what they are right now, though.

Awesome smile.gif Thanks man! What does the instant preview button do??

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post #3261 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 01:23 PM
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If you have multiple video inputs active, Instant Preview shows them all as small "picture-in-picture" images -- scaled down images overlaying your current full-screen selection.

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post #3262 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 01:41 PM
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Are there any AV8801 owners here who have come from the Cary cinema12 Pre/pro?

What are your impressions of the AV8801 compared to the Cinema12?

I ask the above questions for i am sitting on the fence with choosing between these two Pre/Pro's.
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post #3263 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 01:59 PM
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I had a chance to play with a Cary Cinema 12 for a week. I preferred the setup on the Cary to the Marantz for the room correction.
+1 Cary
Detail of the sound on the Marantz is far away significantly better in TV, Satellite and Blurays.
+1 Marantz
Room correction was done right on the Marantz with the XT32. One issue was a little brightness on the high end to being sharp and distorted. Marantz corrected this with the 8801. The 7005 could not fix this nor could the Cary.
+1 Marantz
Sound, when I fast forward or do anything that breaks the sound path the Cary had a 2-3 second delay in playing the sound back. Even changing the channel on my DirectV, sound is delayed 2-3 seconds after video is present. The Marantz was instant. Cary called the instant playback a defect in the Marantz when I asked about it.
+1 Marantz
I spent my money on the Marantz 8801.
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post #3264 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr_Mark View Post

I had a chance to play with a Cary Cinema 12 for a week. I preferred the setup on the Cary to the Marantz for the room correction.
+1 Cary
Detail of the sound on the Marantz is far away significantly better in TV, Satellite and Blurays.
+1 Marantz
Room correction was done right on the Marantz with the XT32. One issue was a little brightness on the high end to being sharp and distorted. Marantz corrected this with the 8801. The 7001 could not fix this nor could the Cary.
+1 Marantz
Sound, when I fast forward or do anything that breaks the sound path the Cary had a 2-3 second delay in playing the sound back. Even changing the channel on my DirectV, sound is delayed 2-3 seconds after video is present. The Marantz was instant. Cary called the instant playback a defect in the Marantz when I asked about it.
+1 Marantz
I spent my money on the Marantz 8801.
+1 Marantz

That's a total of 4 for the Marantz 8801 biggrin.gif
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post #3265 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

If you have multiple video inputs active, Instant Preview shows them all as small "picture-in-picture" images -- scaled down images overlaying your current full-screen selection.

Darn, I was hoping it might be the instant pull-up menu for the speaker levels. Why the new 4520 Denon and the Marantz removed this ability I do not know. It is almost making me want to go back to the 4311 just for it alone...haha.

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post #3266 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Awesome smile.gif Thanks man! What does the instant preview button do??

It shows you a small snapshot of what's happening on the other hdmi inputs...

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post #3267 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Darn, I was hoping it might be the instant pull-up menu for the speaker levels. Why the new 4520 Denon and the Marantz removed this ability I do not know. It is almost making me want to go back to the 4311 just for it alone...haha.

It is also a feature I greatly miss as well. I moved from a 4311ci and I alway used the speaker level adjustments via the web gui; not anymore. I also liked being able to change the surround mode, looking at available options first before choosing, again in the web controller access.

The network access via the web controller in the 8801 is much more responsive than the 4311 especially trying to access internet radio stations.

The remote for the 8801 is by far much better and easier to use than either one of the remotes for the 4311. Whoever designed those should be shot IMHO.

Brian
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post #3268 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by stoneycreek View Post

It is also a feature I greatly miss as well. I moved from a 4311ci and I alway used the speaker level adjustments via the web gui; not anymore. I also liked being able to change the surround mode, looking at available options first before choosing, again in the web controller access.

The network access via the web controller in the 8801 is much more responsive than the 4311 especially trying to access internet radio stations.

The remote for the 8801 is by far much better and easier to use than either one of the remotes for the 4311. Whoever designed those should be shot IMHO.

Brian

Very true, minus the speaker level adjuster, I like the new remote better. Just a single feature they definitely should have kept around smile.gif

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post #3269 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Calvin Hobbes View Post

My goal in listening to music is match the reference of a live performance orchestra at my two local concert halls. That is, I want to be transported to the particular place where a recording took place. The house that we purchased met certain acoustical properties that would make this endeavor easier. Post and beam construction, in which the interior walls do not support the structure and allowed me to tailor them for the best acoustical properties in reproduced sound with the best synergy possible with my chosen components.

I am aware that when using stereo mode processing can be taking place. My original reply was an observation as to what the AV8801 was doing to the sound with all possible dsp turned off. My 80.2 sounds the same in Direct mode and stereo mode with said settings turned off. I can do 2.1 with stereo mode and all processing turned off. Not so with the Marantz.

Kal, the purpose of our pursuit of sound is to have the best possible. To me that means the "correct sound," not colored. The reference standard is set. Audessey sets a reference curve that it tries to meet through its processing. Whether it is Integra or Marantz the curve is the same. But, Marantz is preprocessing that curve and therefore coloring the sound to its specification in its final output. The control is stereo vs direct mode. Of which both the Marantz and the Integra sound and measure the same in room measurements.

As far as your interpretation of that curve, you can assume it will not be heard, But it flies in the face of testing done by Toole and Olive done in 2002. From your review of the 8801 you stated that it had slightly better clarity in the midrange than the 80.2. I felt the same on early listening. This falls in the range that I was referencing in the graph.

All that is tangential.  The graph you refer to does not and, because of how the measurements were made, cannot support your contention regarding the FR of the 8801.  Let me say again that the only way to do that is to measure the direct electrical transfer function and set aside the added variables of amp/speakers/room.  Its relationship to your contention is incidental and doubtful. 


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post #3270 of 12272 Old 02-25-2013, 05:52 PM
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Does anyone know if there is a way to disable AirPlay? There are 3 apple devices in my household and I don't like the fact that someone can override me, also possible toast my speakers if they have their volume all the way up and accidentally hit the AirPlay button. I don't see anything in the manual.
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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