Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 115 - AVS Forum
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post #3421 of 11874 Old 02-28-2013, 08:21 PM
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Music Listening gives a Whole New Dimension to the Meaning of Clarity!!! Again, only difference is this Pre-Amplifier, from my previous Set-up, consisted of Marantz AV7005 priorly. I did not know that a Pre-Amp/Processor can make a Difference in the Overall Sound Quality This Much, in terms of the Clearity of the Sound, as well as the Realism; again, I upgraded to this AV8801, because of its Ability to Calibrate Two Subwoofers that I have; I just did not know or anticipate this kind of Improvements. It must be due to its XT32 Audyssey and/or AV8801's Higher Quality proprietary HDAM, compared to the AV7005's HDAM.

CONCLUSION: I am scared! The sound coming out of my Home Theatre System only after I changed to this AV8801 is Too Good!!! Too Good!!! I have a Movie Theatre Quality Sound (Maybe Better!) in My Very Living Room!!! How Could This Happen to Me???
I love this Marantz AV8801 as my Pre-Amp/Processor; and I am So Satisfied with it.
Did I mention that The Sound is So CLEAR AND REAL?!!!

Thanks again.

Ken.

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post #3422 of 11874 Old 02-28-2013, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by be83663 View Post

Music Listening gives a Whole New Dimension to the Meaning of Clarity!!! 

CONCLUSION: I am scared! The sound coming out of my Home Theatre System only after I changed to this AV8801 is Too Good!!! Too Good!!! I have a Movie Theatre Quality Sound (Maybe Better!) in My Very Living Room!!! How Could This Happen to Me??? I love this Marantz AV8801 as my Pre-Amp/Processor; and I am So Satisfied with it. Did I mention that The Sound is So CLEAR AND REAL?!!!

 

If that is not an endorsement !

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post #3423 of 11874 Old 02-28-2013, 08:33 PM
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I don't have a MSC-400. A buddy of mine got one and it took him weeks to get it working properly...I don't have that much patience. It would have ended up out the window or floating in the pool biggrin.gif

David Vaughn

Blu-ray Reviewer / Technical Writer

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post #3424 of 11874 Old 02-28-2013, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

I don't have a MSC-400. A buddy of mine got one and it took him weeks to get it working properly...I don't have that much patience. It would have ended up out the window or floating in the pool biggrin.gif
HAHA! Two thumbs up!cool.gif

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post #3425 of 11874 Old 02-28-2013, 09:21 PM
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Anyone here compare the AV8801 to the PM11S3 for 2-channel?
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post #3426 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 04:07 AM
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Update on my -12db Audyssey odyssey.

When using the balanced/XLR connections from the Marantz to my amps-that-have-no-gain-control, my fronts, center, and surrounds were all trimmed by -12db by Audyssey. Which is a no-no. It means Audyssey failed to build its filters properly for those speakers because it hit a hardware limitation on the trim...

Following what was suggested here - first I ordered line attenuators - but they're still a week or two away from delivery. So last night I followed the other suggestion and replaced the XLR connections with good, ol' fashioned RCA connections. (I died a little inside as I performed the replacement. Especially given how old my RCA cables are. They are Monster RCA cables! It's been over a decade since I wasted money buying Monster cables...)

Anyway - when I ran Audyssey this time - I have acceptable trims. Fronts are -7.5/-7.0. Center is -7.0. Surrounds are -9.0/-9.5. All much better than -12.0 db. So - yes - switching over to RCA did the trick for Audyssey with my combination of efficient speakers, speakers close to the main listening position, and sensitive amps.

I dug a little further into the specs and I think I found the root of problem. On the 8801 Audio specs it states:

Rated output:
- Unbalanced pre-output: 1.2 V
- Balanced pre-output: 2.4 V

But for my amplifier, the specs state:

Input Impedance:
- Single Ended 22K ohms
- Balanced 44K ohms

Input Sensitivity:
- 1 Watt Output 120mV
- Full Output 1.68 V

So my amps will run full-out at 1.68V, but the 8801 is feeding them up to 2.4V on the XLR inputs. Scary. Basically this particular Marantz isn't meant to be used with amps as sensitive as mine? Or are line attenuators standard between pre-amps and amps? I was hoping to avoid line attenuators or anything that alters the signal. I really wish the 8801 had a max-voltage setting on its pre-outs.
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post #3427 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 04:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

Update on my -12db Audyssey odyssey.

When using the balanced/XLR connections from the Marantz to my amps-that-have-no-gain-control, my fronts, center, and surrounds were all trimmed by -12db by Audyssey. Which is a no-no. It means Audyssey failed to build its filters properly for those speakers because it hit a hardware limitation on the trim...

Following what was suggested here - first I ordered line attenuators - but they're still a week or two away from delivery. So last night I followed the other suggestion and replaced the XLR connections with good, ol' fashioned RCA connections. (I died a little inside as I performed the replacement. Especially given how old my RCA cables are. They are Monster RCA cables! It's been over a decade since I wasted money buying Monster cables...)

Anyway - when I ran Audyssey this time - I have acceptable trims. Fronts are -7.5/-7.0. Center is -7.0. Surrounds are -9.0/-9.5. All much better than -12.0 db. So - yes - switching over to RCA did the trick for Audyssey with my combination of efficient speakers, speakers close to the main listening position, and sensitive amps.

I dug a little further into the specs and I think I found the root of problem. On the 8801 Audio specs it states:

Rated output:
- Unbalanced pre-output: 1.2 V
- Balanced pre-output: 2.4 V

But for my amplifier, the specs state:

Input Impedance:
- Single Ended 22K ohms
- Balanced 44K ohms

Input Sensitivity:
- 1 Watt Output 120mV
- Full Output 1.68 V

So my amps will run full-out at 1.68V, but the 8801 is feeding them up to 2.4V on the XLR inputs. Scary. Basically this particular Marantz isn't meant to be used with amps as sensitive as mine? Or are line attenuators standard between pre-amps and amps? I was hoping to avoid line attenuators or anything that alters the signal. I really wish the 8801 had a max-voltage setting on its pre-outs.



I haven't been following your posts, so I'm not sure what kind of amp you have. What kind is it? My Sunfire's sensitivity is 1.9V as a comparison, and my Parasound's at THX reference is much higher and I've had no problems with it through XLR or RCA.
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post #3428 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 04:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

I don't have a MSC-400. A buddy of mine got one and it took him weeks to get it working properly...I don't have that much patience. It would have ended up out the window or floating in the pool biggrin.gif

I'm going to bet against it floating!! tongue.gif The learning curve is steep - you have to want or need the capabilities or otherwise be a masochist to become proficient with it.

Wyatt
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post #3429 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I haven't been following your posts, so I'm not sure what kind of amp you have. What kind is it? My Sunfire's sensitivity is 1.9V as a comparison, and my Parasound's at THX reference is much higher and I've had no problems with it through XLR or RCA.

I'm running a 7.1 system. My amps are a collection of older Aragons. I'm running two 8008BB and an 8008 MK-II (which is really the same amp as the 8008BB just with slightly updated cosmetics). Those are all 2-channel amps, so those three amps provide me with 6 channels. And then I also have an Aragon 8008x3B - which is a 3-channel amp, but I'm only using one of the channels. That gives me 7 channels of external amplification across four separate amps (with 2 more channels just waiting if I ever add widths or heights).
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post #3430 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 06:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

I'm running a 7.1 system. My amps are a collection of older Aragons. I'm running two 8008BB and an 8008 MK-II (which is really the same amp as the 8008BB just with slightly updated cosmetics). Those are all 2-channel amps, so those three amps provide me with 6 channels. And then I also have an Aragon 8008x3B - which is a 3-channel amp, but I'm only using one of the channels. That gives me 7 channels of external amplification across four separate amps (with 2 more channels just waiting if I ever add widths or heights).


Ok I gotcha, maybe someone else will answer this, but I'm not seeing the mismatch with your amp(s). So all your amps are similar? Same input sensitivity? THX gains on the back?
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post #3431 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Beast audio, from my iPhone
Quote:
"This is where the paper takes off assuming you are taking left and rights out of a 2 channel Pre and trying to split the overall signal to a sub, which is completely different from what 90% of those on this thread are doing."

My take on this was the sub to be considered the bass speaker for your system, HT or 2-ch. thinking of the sub as just another speaker in the cabinet as a designer would designing a speaker. So getting the frequencies out of the boxs that can't fully reproduce them is the idea. Getting the port out of the way to smooth the transition.

Yep, that was pretty much what he was saying, but for whatever reason in the schematic where he shows the delay caused by the main speaker amp and then he shows no amp for the sub just threw me. He didn't even take into consideration the internal amp on the "JL Sub" which is certainly present, and should not be forgotten (unless you really think about it, and it actually disproves PART of his theory)

Let's take my signal chain as an example. For my mains right now I have:

8801->crown xls1500/emotiva xpa-5-->speakers
8801->DCX2496-->LabGruppen 14k-->Subs

So I have one additional item in my subwoofer chain that could potentially add additional delay that I have no way of removing (except for the distance setting in Audyssey perhaps.) I guess I Should put my dual 31 band eq back in the signal chain for the main speakers so that my group delay all matches up, but that is so wrong! You can't even assume with different devices and filters that you are even going to get close to matching delay, you simply have to have something that can adjust for it, and Audyssey does a pretty good job at that.


So we are in agreement on all of this. I guess after crossing over at 80hz the ports become low-mids and almost irrelevant.

Yessir Buddy!

Do you think it a good idea to plug the ports on my two subs? One is dual 12" down facing and the other is front facing 12".

Fact is my system as it is sounds excellent. I have noticed some muddy bass but not on all discs. I have some discs tha blow me away, some muddy, some shrill high end. I take that as bad engineering in the recordings.

Still need wall treatment and Audyssey Pro. After that I'm good.

As far as your last three points, if you think your sound is phenomenal, then save your settings, leave it be!! It never hurts to experiment though so just remember exactly how you have it set up at the moment, so you can go back if you don't like the direction you are headed. As I said before, plugging the ports you can expect a little less "slam" in the chest but your sub will extend a little lower at usable volumes. To each his own though biggrin.gif Remember too that you will need to re-reun Audyssey if you use it, after you plug the ports. TBH, I would focus on room treatments first smile.gif

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post #3432 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Ok I gotcha, maybe someone else will answer this, but I'm not seeing the mismatch with your amp(s). So all your amps are similar? Same input sensitivity? THX gains on the back?

Yes - all amps similar (or identical). No gain controls. Only control is on/off. A few other people had the same problem with certain speakers being trimmed to -12db when using the XLR connections on their amps (amps with no gain controls). The two solutions proposed so far are - (1) use attenuators if you want to stick with the XLR/balanced connections, or (2) switch to using the RCA connections instead. Either approach cuts the signal enough between the 8801 and the amps so that the amps are "within range" of what Audyssey can tune with the 8801.

I'm just wishing there was a 3rd option - a "tell Marantz to lower its max-voltage on the pre-outs" option.
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I'd just stick with the RCA's then, assuming you aren't getting any additional noise from the unbalanced connections. The attenuators could probably just get sent back, unless you simply want to experiment. I was messing around a little last night and realized that I have to do the same for my surrounds as the sL and sR are both at -12 and -11.5 after I adjusted them a little, too far in the red zone for me biggrin.gif

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post #3434 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

Yes - all amps similar (or identical). No gain controls. Only control is on/off. A few other people had the same problem with certain speakers being trimmed to -12db when using the XLR connections on their amps (amps with no gain controls). The two solutions proposed so far are - (1) use attenuators if you want to stick with the XLR/balanced connections, or (2) switch to using the RCA connections instead. Either approach cuts the signal enough between the 8801 and the amps so that the amps are "within range" of what Audyssey can tune with the 8801.

I'm just wishing there was a 3rd option - a "tell Marantz to lower it's max-voltage on the pre-outs" option.



Check your private messages.
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post #3435 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 07:25 AM
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This is an HDMI/set top box issue. I switched to composite/coax for my FiOS STB and problem solved. Never happens with my UD9004 using HDMI. First tried switching HDMI to 3ft but it still happens so gave up and went the other route.

Thanks! However, HDMI from the cable/set top box goes into a Lumagen Radiance XS and then to the display. Doesn't touch the AV8801. Digital audio from the set top box goes to the AV8801. I keep the audio and video paths separate from the cable box.

Also, two times the AV8801 went into "irreversible muting," was with FM/HD Radio. No HDMI involved with that also.
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post #3436 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 08:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Two questions:
  • I can't get Airplay to work. With the AV7005 my fix was to disable DHCP off, but that doesn't work. Does anyone have Airplay working?
  • After running Audyssey I checked the levels using a good old RS SPL Meter. All my 9 speakers were about 72db (+/- a few db), but my two subwoofer individual, or combined were at least 10db lower. Should I manually adjust this? How come?
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post #3437 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exm View Post

Two questions:
  • I can't get Airplay to work. With the AV7005 my fix was to disable DHCP off, but that doesn't work. Does anyone have Airplay working?
  • After running Audyssey I checked the levels using a good old RS SPL Meter. All my 9 speakers were about 72db (+/- a few db), but my two subwoofer individual, or combined were at least 10db lower. Should I manually adjust this? How come?

Yep, I adjust mine back up everytime after I run audyssey. I am not certain why this happens, but it is not based on the 8801, my 4311 and 3311 did the same thing. I just don't think Audyssey gets some sub systems correct, plain and simple. The other problem I have is that if set my gains on my amp for Audyssey to read 75dB with the sub trims at 0.0, and then go into audyssey, when it runs the sub test before everything it says the subs are TOO HIGH!! Not sure why this happens, but I turn around and adjust the gains on my sub amp so I am in the green, and then after auyssey runs, LOW AND BEHOLD, It has set my sub gains at -12!!! What gives??? I would love to know why this happens but in my search thus far, no one has an answer...

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post #3438 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GerryWaz View Post

Thanks! However, HDMI from the cable/set top box goes into a Lumagen Radiance XS and then to the display. Doesn't touch the AV8801. Digital audio from the set top box goes to the AV8801. I keep the audio and video paths separate from the cable box.

Also, two times the AV8801 went into "irreversible muting," was with FM/HD Radio. No HDMI involved with that also.

Instead of powering off the 8801 try switching from SAT to BluRay and then back. That fixes it for me. Doesn't solve the problem but I don't like to power off the 8801 & my amps like that. Power off AV also turns off my amps.

This needs to be addressed with Marantz. My AVP does the same thing. It's a Marantz/Denon problem. Ill bet it doesn't happen with other mfg's.
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post #3439 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Instead of powering off the 8801 try switching from SAT to BluRay and then back. That fixes it for me. Doesn't solve the problem but I don't like to power off the 8801 & my amps like that. Power off AV also turns off my amps.

This needs to be addressed with Marantz. My AVP does the same thing. It's a Marantz/Denon problem. Ill bet it doesn't happen with other mfg's.

I have the same issue, but only with HDMI On blu rays with lossless audio. I'm talking to marantz now.

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post #3440 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Tank_PD View Post

Anyone here compare the AV8801 to the PM11S3 for 2-channel?
you mean, has anyone used these two components together? I'd like to know myself. I'd also love to hear differences between the (somewhat popular) Sony SCD-XA5400ES & Marantz PM11S3 dedicated CD/SACD players using 2ch XLR.
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post #3441 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 09:02 AM
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Airplay is mostly working for me. Connecting either to our AV8801 or our AVR4311ci is super easy through iTunes. The volume just comes in super hot on both and I've not investigated that yet.
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post #3442 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post


This needs to be addressed with Marantz. My AVP does the same thing. It's a Marantz/Denon problem. Ill bet it doesn't happen with other mfg's.

I saw it from time to time on my old Arcam AVR300. Made me start to think I was getting strange IR somewhere . . . tongue.gif
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post #3443 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by GerryWaz View Post

Airplay is mostly working for me. Connecting either to our AV8801 or our AVR4311ci is super easy through iTunes. The volume just comes in super hot on both and I've not investigated that yet.

Okay--it was me not understanding how the volume control in iTunes controls things. Works great now on both the AV8801 and 4311ci. smile.gif
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post #3444 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 09:39 AM
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Picked up the AV8801 today but as I am at my father-in-law's place, I can't test out the multichannel capabilities so I decided to piggy back it to my in-law's system to see how it fares in 2 channel mode without any EQ in place (Pure Direct mode).

His main system is as follows:
Audiolab 8200CDQ Sabre32 DAC and preamp
Quad 606 power amp using Crystal Standard XLR with adaptors (normally using W4S ST500 power amps but it's sent for repairs)
Marantz NA7004 network player/tuner/digital radio (coax to Audiolab DAC)
Denon DBP2012 BD/SACD/DVDA/DVDV player
Crystal Micro speaker cables
Martin Logan Ethos

I couldn't fit the Marantz on the current space so I used a long DBS shielded RCA cable from the Marantz to the Quad power amps. I then hooked a HDMI cable from the Denon BD player to the Marantz.

With more familiar CDs, I thought the highs on the Marantz sounded a bit rolled off. This is similar to my old Marantz SA8003. Detail retrieval was still good and it was quite listenable. I also hooked up an iPhone with AIFF on USB as a second source.

I unhooked the Marantz and put back the Audiolab 8200CDQ and relistened to those same tracks. The highs felt slightly more detailed. I suspect the Quad/RCA cable I was using was already a tad warm so the Marantz merely accentuated the problem. I suspect this won't be an issue with the Wyred4Souce ICEBox MC 6xASP500s I would be using it with for the surround back/height/wide speakers, the Bel Canto REF1000Ms for surrounds, 500M for centre and Electrocompaniet Nemos for front LR.

Compared to my old Denon AVR4810, I thought the Denon didn't feel as warm as this when I was using it as a preamp in the past in Pure Direct mode.
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post #3445 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Looking back at the context (below), I am no longer certain if Mr. Lynch was referring to the LPF in the 8801 LFE channel (as I first thought) or the filter on the Seaton's amp. If he was referring to the Seaton, then I agree it should not be set to 80 Hz. But neither 120 Hz. It should be turned off if at all possible, or set as high as it can go. I hope he can clarify which he meant.

Roger-

I use no filters on my submersive subwoofer. My question was in regards to the subwoofer settings in the AVR8801.

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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

Roger-

I use no filters on my submersive subwoofer. My question was in regards to the subwoofer settings in the AVR8801.
Thanks for confirming. So I think then we can safely allow you to determine the best setting for the LFE LPF based on your own sense of aural delight. cool.gif

I personally tend to set the low pass on the LFE channel at 80Hz in most systems by preference. I think many forget that the difference between a 120Hz low pass and an 80Hz low pass is nothing more than a shelving filter. If the low pass is 4th order, the 80Hz filter is about 7dB lower at 100Hz and about 4dB at 80Hz. A 100Hz low pass setting would have about 1/2 that difference. The adjustment has more effect on shaping the LFE track's response than it does on cutting off content. If you're running the subs with a rising response on the low end which blends with the main speakers, experimenting with 80, 100 vs. 120Hz is basically a means to taper the top end of the LFE channel. Setting this lower than 120Hz is not hacking off content any more than setting your sub a few dB hot would destroy a soundtrack. wink.gif

Mark Seaton
Seaton Sound, Inc.
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post #3446 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 11:32 AM
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The Marantz doesn't sound like a Denon or an NAD or an Onkyo or a Mac or a Peachtree or a whatever. It's a Marantz and they all have their own characteristics. I could pick any one of the above and listen to it and pick out what I like and don't like about them all. To say one sounds better than the other is opinion. Personally I like the 8801. Would I like the sound of something else? Well yeah, I'd have to be stupido to think this is the only good sounding pre/pro on the market. Lucky for us there is a LOT of competition these days. Some forget when the market for most high end audio was cornered by a handful of companies. It was so high priced that it was out of reach for most. My Sunfire pre/pro from 8 years ago was nearly 3 grand retail, so add inflation and figure it out. The 8801 IMO is hard to beat, and maybe at any price. I can say that because its all subjective. Have a great day, and don't forget to tip your waitress o.O
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post #3447 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 11:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GerryWaz View Post

Airplay is mostly working for me. Connecting either to our AV8801 or our AVR4311ci is super easy through iTunes. The volume just comes in super hot on both and I've not investigated that yet.

Did you change any network settings in the Marantz, like DHCP?
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post #3448 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

The Marantz doesn't sound like a Denon or an NAD or an Onkyo or a Mac or a Peachtree or a whatever. It's a Marantz and they all have their own characteristics. I could pick any one of the above and listen to it and pick out what I like and don't like about them all. To say one sounds better than the other is opinion. Personally I like the 8801. Would I like the sound of something else? Well yeah, I'd have to be stupido to think this is the only good sounding pre/pro on the market. Lucky for us there is a LOT of competition these days. Some forget when the market for most high end audio was cornered by a handful of companies. It was so high priced that it was out of reach for most. My Sunfire pre/pro from 8 years ago was nearly 3 grand retail, so add inflation and figure it out. The 8801 IMO is hard to beat, and maybe at any price. I can say that because its all subjective. Have a great day, and don't forget to tip your waitress o.O

Agreed. But I can't find an 11.2 with Audyssey32 anywhere. Not close in price are any on the market, not with this quality.

I think Marantz beat the others to market on the 11.2. Others are scrambling. They removed legacy s-video, and didn't mess with the lic cost of THX cert. adding 4k pass through also one ups the competitors. Mac still has an outdated machine and it costs $12,000. Mac sounds good, great in fact but behind the times. Oh the worst part of Mac is no upgrades, your stuck.
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post #3449 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 12:27 PM
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H, I totally agree, and I think the writing is on the wall for these so called high end products that lack features, are 7.1, no updates, and half the features of the 8801. Many picked apart the 7005, and they will dissect the 8801. But at the end of the day we'll have a pre/pro that will be updated consistently and a list of features as long as my arm, and run with the big boys, for 1/3 or 1/4 of the price.
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post #3450 of 11874 Old 03-01-2013, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyliec2 View Post

We're mostly saying the same thing - and obviously those that have been doing this for decades do it please ourselves irrespective of others' opinions.

But to clarify #3, there are some things, particularly in the bass region, which are impossible to correct through EQ.

There is nothing Audyssey cannot correct. tongue.gif

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