Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 118 - AVS Forum
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post #3511 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Originally Posted by Mark Seaton


I personally tend to set the low pass on the LFE channel at 80Hz in most systems by preference. I think many forget that the difference between a 120Hz low pass and an 80Hz low pass is nothing more than a shelving filter. If the low pass is 4th order, the 80Hz filter is about 7dB lower at 100Hz and about 4dB at 80Hz. A 100Hz low pass setting would have about 1/2 that difference. The adjustment has more effect on shaping the LFE track's response than it does on cutting off content. If you're running the subs with a rising response on the low end which blends with the main speakers, experimenting with 80, 100 vs. 120Hz is basically a means to taper the top end of the LFE channel. Setting this lower than 120Hz is not hacking off content any more than setting your sub a few dB hot would destroy a soundtrack.
Just so I'm clear on this, I have my mains, center and surrounds XO @80hz & LFE @120hz, your saying it would clear up the low frequencies even further setting the LFE to 80hz.


Do you have your speakers set too small?
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post #3512 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jdlynch View Post

I just experienced the best movie sound I have heard yet with the 8801 watching Casino Royale. Surprisingly, it was only a SD DVD with Dolby Digital. I can only imagine how good it might sound in Dolby HD. The bass was powerful yet controlled and the dynamics were awesome.

I will definitely be buying the Blu-ray version of this movie, and, this will be one that I use for reference.



Good to hear. Your going to love blu rays through it. I can't get enough of them, movies and music.
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post #3513 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Just so I'm clear on this, I have my mains, center and surrounds XO @80hz & LFE @120hz, your saying it would clear up the low frequencies even further setting the LFE to 80hz.
The issue we are discussing is not related to where you set the crossover. Only with regard to the low-pass filter in the LFE channel.

Yes, it is our collective assertion that it imparts a sense of tighter, deeper bass on the LFE effects when the filter is set lower than 120 Hz.

So simple to try, no cost, no obligation. wink.gif

And to further clarify my suggestions, I would only state that it is simply an adjustment you have at your disposal which will tilt down the top end of the subwoofer range. It doesn't have to be 80Hz OR 120Hz, it can be anything in between. How you balance your system, the in-room response, and your preferred listening levels will all play into which you prefer. I most often set the LFE low pass on different systems at 80-100Hz when the adjustment is available. Pick a track with lots of LFE action and some percussive content and decide for yourself. As Roger said... "no cost, no obligation!" wink.gif

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post #3514 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

And to further clarify my suggestions, I would only state that it is simply an adjustment you have at your disposal which will tilt down the top end of the subwoofer range. It doesn't have to be 80Hz OR 120Hz, it can be anything in between. How you balance your system, the in-room response, and your preferred listening levels will all play into which you prefer. I most often set the LFE low pass on different systems at 80-100Hz when the adjustment is available. Pick a track with lots of LFE action and some percussive content and decide for yourself. As Roger said... "no cost, no obligation!" wink.gif

I found this discussion on the Audyssey thread and immediately changed it to 80Hz and noticed a considerable tightness to the bass specifically with 2.0 material using PLIIx DSX.

My question concerns c/o settings for the satellites. Audyssey found them to be all at 40Hz and following conventional wisdom, I have upped them to 80Hz. Should I leave them there or something different for the blend with the LPF now set at 80Hz?
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post #3515 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

I found this discussion on the Audyssey thread and immediately changed it to 80Hz and noticed a considerable tightness to the bass specifically with 2.0 material using PLIIx DSX.

My question concerns c/o settings for the satellites. Audyssey found them to be all at 40Hz and following conventional wisdom, I have upped them to 80Hz. Should I leave them there or something different for the blend with the LPF now set at 80Hz?




Audyssey crossed my mains at 120Hz. This was a preliminary run in my not very acoustically friendly room, but it's settings were bewildering to say the least. I'm not as convinced about room correction as others are after my experience. A lot of it is still preference IMO.
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post #3516 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by buckley44 View Post

Do you have your speakers set too small?

Yes all of them, 2 subs and LFE+Main.
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post #3517 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 10:33 AM
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Patrick,

Where you set the crossover frequency, so long as it's above the value set by the calibration, is up to you. Quite a few people have reported that their systems sounded better with higher crossover frequencies. It can't hurt to try it.

As Roger said... "no cost, no obligation!"

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post #3518 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by buckley44 View Post

Do you have your speakers set too small?

Yes all of them, 2 subs and LFE+Main.

Don't forget that LFE+Main does absolutely nothing if Bass Management is enabled, i.e. when speakers are set to Small. It doesn't hurt anything either, of course.

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post #3519 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

And to further clarify my suggestions, I would only state that it is simply an adjustment you have at your disposal which will tilt down the top end of the subwoofer range. It doesn't have to be 80Hz OR 120Hz, it can be anything in between. How you balance your system, the in-room response, and your preferred listening levels will all play into which you prefer. I most often set the LFE low pass on different systems at 80-100Hz when the adjustment is available. Pick a track with lots of LFE action and some percussive content and decide for yourself. As Roger said... "no cost, no obligation!" wink.gif

I found this discussion on the Audyssey thread and immediately changed it to 80Hz and noticed a considerable tightness to the bass specifically with 2.0 material using PLIIx DSX.

My question concerns c/o settings for the satellites. Audyssey found them to be all at 40Hz and following conventional wisdom, I have upped them to 80Hz. Should I leave them there or something different for the blend with the LPF now set at 80Hz?

Hi Patrick,

Do note that the above discussion was related to those preamps with an option for the "LFE low pass". This is the low pass filter applied to the .1 LFE channel only, and has no effect on the speaker-subwoofer integration. Remember that when the "Sub channel" is referred to this implies the .1 LFE track + all of the bass redirected (low passed) from the main channels per the crossover settings.

In the vast majority of preamps, the Marantz included, the chosen crossover frequency for each channel dictates how the content to that channel is handled. Content from that channel is low passed at that frequency and added to the "SUB" channel while the speaker receives the high passed signal. The LFE low pass has no impact on the full range speaker channels. There certainly are cases where you would want to try a higher or lower crossover than 80Hz, but that depends greatly on the in-room response of the speakers and sub, the capabilities of the speakers, and the playback levels you prefer.

Mark Seaton
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post #3520 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 11:22 AM
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Thanks Mark.
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post #3521 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 12:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post

And to further clarify my suggestions, I would only state that it is simply an adjustment you have at your disposal which will tilt down the top end of the subwoofer range. It doesn't have to be 80Hz OR 120Hz, it can be anything in between. How you balance your system, the in-room response, and your preferred listening levels will all play into which you prefer. I most often set the LFE low pass on different systems at 80-100Hz when the adjustment is available. Pick a track with lots of LFE action and some percussive content and decide for yourself. As Roger said... "no cost, no obligation!" wink.gif

+1, glad to see the 80hz suggestion as not as a not set in stone as this all seems to have everyone up in arms and questioning there setups! I posted a few threads back on using to separate scenes from "Star wars Ep II" In the opening scene when the fly by of the larger cruiser and smaller fighters and the scene with the asteroids the differences between settings from 80-120hz where apparent and had different results , while the first scene benefited from the perceived tighter 80hz setting ( more tactile sensation and preserved upper mid and treble clarity of the delicate sounds) the second scene indeed benefited from 100-120hz setting getting those tactile sensations to the upper back part of the seat eek.gif After doing this for a while I ended up with a setting of 90hz which in my room was the best of both and really worth the effort to experiment wink.gif
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post #3522 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Patrick,

Where you set the crossover frequency, so long as it's above the value set by the calibration, is up to you. Quite a few people have reported that their systems sounded better with higher crossover frequencies. It can't hurt to try it.

As Roger said... "no cost, no obligation!"



Those no sugar coating the fact that after I ran Audyssey my setup sounded like crap. My Revel mains are pretty capable and the fact that it crossed them at 120 is unacceptable. So it sent most low frequencies to my sub, which it then had me turn down so low it was nearly inaudible. It did do a good job setting distances, but so did my tape measure. I'm not saying it's not good but as far as I'm concerned my ears are much better. I do have it turned on because I like the dynamic EQ but again I could curve the EQ myself. To each his own, but IMO Audyssey was not able to deal with the acoustics of my room. So it didn't.


I have to edit this because Audyssey actually crossed them at 250Hz, my error.
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post #3523 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 03:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Those no sugar coating the fact that after I ran Audyssey my setup sounded like crap. My Revel mains are pretty capable and the fact that it crossed them at 120 is unacceptable. So it sent most low frequencies to my sub, which it then had me turn down so low it was nearly inaudible. It did do a good job setting distances, but so did my tape measure. I'm not saying it's not good but as far as I'm concerned my ears are much better. I do have it turned on because I like the dynamic EQ but again I could curve the EQ myself. To each his own, but IMO Audyssey was not able to deal with the acoustics of my room. So it didn't.


I have to edit this because Audyssey actually crossed them at 250Hz, my error.

Did you also check the output levels? I noticed (post few pages back) that my subs were -10db
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post #3524 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by exm View Post

Did you also check the output levels? I noticed (post few pages back) that my subs were -10db



Yes, I turned them up to my preference but I think with all those frequencies redirected it sounded muddy, boomy whatever you want to call it. I'm not dogging Audyssey and for a room with decent acoustics it probably does a great job. I just don't think it knew whet to do with my room. It is a nightmare where I have my gear, but I have to deal with it for now.
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post #3525 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by exm View Post

Did you also check the output levels? I noticed (post few pages back) that my subs were -10db

-10dB is within the range of -11dB to +11dB. It doesn't indicate any inherent problem, if that's what you're getting at.

Myself I'd turn lower the gain on the sub amp a bit then re-run Audyssey to try to get that closer to centered, say -3dB to +3dB, but that's just me. What you for sure don't want to see is -12dB or +12dB on any channel because then you don't know if the level actually needed to be even lower or even higher for calibration.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #3526 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 03:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

-10dB is within the adjustment range of -12dB to +12dB. It doesn't indicate any inherent problem, if that's what you're getting at.

All my regular speakers were within a few dBs of each other, but the subs (individual and combined significantly, -10dB, lower).
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post #3527 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 05:47 PM
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OK...but are you saying that's a problem, or?

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #3528 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 07:01 PM - Thread Starter
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OK...but are you saying that's a problem, or?

I don't think a -10dB level is normal
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post #3529 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 07:36 PM
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I have a problem ... Where can I find a Maramtz 8801?!

I'm in Florida just south of Tampa.

Please PM me for off-line contact.

Thank you in advance.

Stan
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post #3530 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 08:08 PM
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This is an interesting post on the BDP-105 thread that presents the case for running your mains as large/full and using a sub located next to each speaker.

Thought some of the folks here might find it a worthwhile read:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1439524/official-oppo-bdp-105-owners-thread/4020#post_23036401

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post #3531 of 12272 Old 03-03-2013, 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by exm View Post

I don't think a -10dB level is normal

Anything from -11dB to +11dB can be normal because you know the cal routine was able to set the level within the available calibration range. That means it's generally doing what it should be doing. It's not going to set the calibration to something higher if -10dB is all it takes to hit the calibration level.

If you want that sub cal number to be higher then turn down the gain on the sub amp(s) and re-run Audyssey. For example, if you reduce the gain on the sub amp(s) by -6dB and re-run the Audyssey cal, the cal level will have to come up to compensate so the resulting sub trim level should then be around -4dB. Won't change anything about the level of the sub, it'll be calibrated just the same, only that you shifted 6dB of gain from the sub(s) adjustment to the processor trim adjustment.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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Anyone have experience MartinLogan electrostat speakers with AV8801+MC8207 or MX121+MC8207 or AV8801+MM8077
I guess if I am going mc8207 for amp, I shouldn't bother for mm8077, cause I think it IS going to make a difference on my ML speakers since power watt is more.

But does staying with McIntosh preamnp really produce more linear sound? Because it's "one" branded?

What is the sound difference between av8801 and mx121 with same mc8207 amp?
As I am in the process of deciding these two, but my dealer tends to tell me to go MX121, saying it's low distortion, linear sound etc

I just wanted to know how it sounds like, meaning worth the extra dollars, I guess I will never be able to tell if two pre isn't side by side for me to switch back and forth.

can anyone shed some light for me? At least from sound wise, do you really hear the "linear" sound


Thanks
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post #3533 of 12272 Old 03-04-2013, 01:59 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Yes, I turned them up to my preference but I think with all those frequencies redirected it sounded muddy, boomy whatever you want to call it. I'm not dogging Audyssey and for a room with decent acoustics it probably does a great job. I just don't think it knew whet to do with my room. It is a nightmare where I have my gear, but I have to deal with it for now.

Did you use a boom mic stand or a tripod ? are the Revels full range ? some pics of the room could help a bit, also concerning Audyssey it took me a few runs but Iv'e got so good I can use it for 2ch placyback it kills with multi ch music and movies) with my mains crossed over at 80hz and is a pleasure to hear the seamless blend of sub and mains and the depth it brings to the table.

Lets see if we can get this figured out, also do some homework on the Audyssey thread ( a must) its invaluable info !
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post #3534 of 12272 Old 03-04-2013, 04:32 AM
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Did you use a boom mic stand or a tripod ? are the Revels full range ? some pics of the room could help a bit, also concerning Audyssey it took me a few runs but Iv'e got so good I can use it for 2ch placyback it kills with multi ch music and movies) with my mains crossed over at 80hz and is a pleasure to hear the seamless blend of sub and mains and the depth it brings to the table.

Lets see if we can get this figured out, also do some homework on the Audyssey thread ( a must) its invaluable info !



I did everything right that's what was so surprising. Mains are set to small. I really think it's my room that's confusing Audyssey. It's not a big deal to me really, there's a certain way I like it to sound and just set it accordingly.
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post #3535 of 12272 Old 03-04-2013, 05:30 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I did everything right that's what was so surprising. Mains are set to small. I really think it's my room that's confusing Audyssey. It's not a big deal to me really, there's a certain way I like it to sound and just set it accordingly.

Good plan.

I am happy with the sound as well. smile.gif

I just replaced my Sunfire 7400 with an Outlaw 7500.
After my shoot out with the Outlaw M2200, I was surprised on now good that little amp sounded.
The Sunfire seemed harsh and less dynamic.

I plugged the 7500 into my Panamax power conditioner high-current outputs and it also sounded harsh.
Then, I plugged the 7500 directly into the 20 amp circuit and everything changed.
The detail and dynamics returned.
The Panamax was also humming and causing the 7500 to hum when plugged into same circuit.
One removed the 7500 amp is completely quiet. It virtually no transformer hum and the speakers a dead silent.

I plugged the Sunfire directly in the wall and it sounded much better; The dynamics returned and harshness disappeared.
It is ironic that the Power conditioner was polluting the power.

The 8801 is now plugged directly into the wall.

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post #3536 of 12272 Old 03-04-2013, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

This is an interesting post on the BDP-105 thread that presents the case for running your mains as large/full and using a sub located next to each speaker.

Thought some of the folks here might find it a worthwhile read:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1439524/official-oppo-bdp-105-owners-thread/4020#post_23036401

- Rich

A word of warning....if you set up stereo subs, don't graph the response!! eek.gif

BTDT

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post #3537 of 12272 Old 03-04-2013, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Good plan.

I am happy with the sound as well. smile.gif

I just replaced my Sunfire 7400 with an Outlaw 7500.
After my shoot out with the Outlaw M2200, I was surprised on now good that little amp sounded.
The Sunfire seemed harsh and less dynamic.

I plugged the 7500 into my Panamax power conditioner high-current outputs and it also sounded harsh.
Then, I plugged the 7500 directly into the 20 amp circuit and everything changed.
The detail and dynamics returned.
The Panamax was also humming and causing the 7500 to hum when plugged into same circuit.
One removed the 7500 amp is completely quiet. It virtually no transformer hum and the speakers a dead silent.

I plugged the Sunfire directly in the wall and it sounded much better; The dynamics returned and harshness disappeared.
It is ironic that the Power conditioner was polluting the power.

The 8801 is now plugged directly into the wall.

- Rich



I'm ready to move on from Sunfire also Rich, at least for my fronts. I wish I could of heard the difference with your Salons. It was dramatic? Your reading my mind on plugging directly into the wall, I'm about to dedicate several new circuits.
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post #3538 of 12272 Old 03-04-2013, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cglin222 View Post

Anyone have experience MartinLogan electrostat speakers with AV8801+MC8207 or MX121+MC8207 or AV8801+MM8077
I guess if I am going mc8207 for amp, I shouldn't bother for mm8077, cause I think it IS going to make a difference on my ML speakers since power watt is more.

But does staying with McIntosh preamnp really produce more linear sound? Because it's "one" branded?

What is the sound difference between av8801 and mx121 with same mc8207 amp?
As I am in the process of deciding these two, but my dealer tends to tell me to go MX121, saying it's low distortion, linear sound etc

I just wanted to know how it sounds like, meaning worth the extra dollars, I guess I will never be able to tell if two pre isn't side by side for me to switch back and forth.

can anyone shed some light for me? At least from sound wise, do you really hear the "linear" sound


Thanks

I haven't heard the MM8807 myself. It was tested in the latest Hifi magazine "Watt" here in Norway that came out this week, AV8801 got 6/6 stars, and the MM8807 got 5/6. They also have a High End reward above the 6 stars, which I was suprised the AV8801 didn't get, I'd bet it only was because of the price was on the wrong side of 30.000 NOK. The AV8003 got that award if I remember correctly, and it was 35K insted of 28K as this one is. And they normalt have a High End barrier at 30K for some reason.

But back to topic. When I bought the AV8003 at launch, I also got the MM8003, and switched it out for the Rotel RMP-1575 because a lack of power. The Rotel is more detailed to. Marantz is known for lacking a little in power with their amps.
It said in the review og the MM8807 that they have changed their amps alittle from before. I would have tried Mc amps in sted.

But I'm not very familiar with electrostatic speakes, but doesn't they have they're own power, because they use high current/voltage, and not the current/voltage of the amplifier.
I know they get connected with normal speaker wairs, and not interconnectors. But isn't it the same as when going with speaker wairs through a subwoofer? Where it only takes out the "Hz" signal,and not care about the power behind it?
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post #3539 of 12272 Old 03-04-2013, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'm ready to move on from Sunfire also Rich, at least for my fronts. I wish I could of heard the difference with your Salons. It was dramatic? Your reading my mind on plugging directly into the wall, I'm about to dedicate several new circuits.

Originally, I thought so, then I realized that the Sunfire's gain is 28 on the XLR but the Outlaw's gain is 34 (but it is 28 with RCA).
I was adding 5 DB to get them to sound right before I realized this.
The difference is not as great as I originally thought.

It is hard to put your finger on it. The Outlaw is a quieter amp and I feel is is a bit more open and dynamic.
On the Thomas Crown Affair CD Sinner Man track the ending is crashing symbols.
They never sounded better than they did with the Outlaw.

I would say the Sunfire is just not as fast, if that makes sense.
It is certainly not as great as using the Source Direct versus Direct via 7.1 and the BDP-105.

I looked at a lot of A/B amps and it seemed to me that at a given power rating the Outlaw was the best choice.
I was sorely tempted by the Halo A51 (in black) but I did not want to spend the money right now.
At some point, I maybe.

It is easy enough to try NEW one (or B-Stock) and return it if you do not like it.
If you decide to keep it, you are just out the return shipping and the chiropractor bill.

- Rich

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post #3540 of 12272 Old 03-04-2013, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by wyliec2 View Post

A word of warning....if you set up stereo subs, don't graph the response!! eek.gif

BTDT

I think the whole idea was to properly adjust the subs for flat response.
A graph is a good tool. There are others as well.

I am not sure you can graph proper imaging.
That may be something you have to hear.

There are more and more Head-Fi fans these days.
They get that in spades. smile.gif

- Rich

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