Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 136 - AVS Forum
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post #4051 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlxG View Post


Kal,

Thanks for pointing to exaSound.

I assume that you're referring to the exaSound E20 DAC... Was it connect to AV8801 via XLR. Please tell me more about the combines sound quality.

No, e18.  No XLR but multichannel.  Comments in May column.


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post #4052 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by jam88 View Post

Kudos also go to David Vaughn of Home Theater magazine, Stereophile's sister publication, for another very well executed review of the AV8801 and MM8077 that I read about three weeks ago. He liked the AV8801 so much, he bought the company, errh... I mean he kept the review sample. wink.gif

He bought the review sample, as did I.


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post #4053 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Rich...where is this installed? Is it next to your fuse panel? I assume you take the main line coming into the house and place this in between the main feed and your fuse box, right?

No, it doesn't go between the incoming power and the panel, it connects in parallel to the two legs of the panel though a double-pole circuit breaker. There would also be a connection to the neutral/grounding busbar.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4054 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 06:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I have ordered the 7900 for my Revel Salons and since I only have 5 channels, I will likely bi-amp.

I emailed ATI about this and the response was:
Does anyone know the output impedance of the XLR outs?
Would this be an issue?

- Rich

No, but to make a reasonable conclusion you also have to know what the amp input impedance is. The Outlaw(?) 7900 spec says <10k input impedance but doesn't say how much less. In biamp two inputs will be in parallel so the net impedance will be <5k. The general rule of thumb is to have at least 1:10 ratio of output impedance to input impedance. So, you'd hope the 8801 output impedance is <500 ohms. It'll certainly work above that but the further above the more you have the potential for frequency aberration.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4055 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 07:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

No, but to make a reasonable conclusion you also have to know what the amp input impedance is. The Outlaw(?) 7900 spec says <10k input impedance but doesn't say how much less. In biamp two inputs will be in parallel so the net impedance will be <5k. The general rule of thumb is to have at least 1:10 ratio of output impedance to input impedance. So, you'd hope the 8801 output impedance is <500 ohms. It'll certainly work above that but the further above the more you have the potential for frequency aberration.


Holy cr*p,

That has to be a typo.
All the similar ATI's and Outlaws have input impedance of >28K ohms.
No one would spec input impedance as less-than anything.
I am hoping this is a typo.

I submitted an urgent ticket to Outlaw to clarify.

Thanks for pointing this out,

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post #4056 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

He bought the review sample, as did I.

That's what I meant. Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part but I think most people realize that when a reviewer writes that he decided to keep the review sample, he actually buys it. Good to know that you also kept your review sample Kal, errh... I mean bought your review sample. biggrin.gif
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post #4057 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Holy cr*p,

That has to be a typo.
All the similar ATI's and Outlaws have input impedance of >28K ohms.
No one would spec input impedance as less-than anything.
I am hoping this is a typo.

I submitted an urgent ticket to Outlaw to clarify.

Thanks for pointing this out,

Rich

Hard to say. Some amps I have have input impedance 6k ohms unbalanced, 12k ohms balanced. Even a number of these with inputs in parallel wouldn't be a problem on my old Yamaha preamp that has 47 ohms output impedance or a Proceed PRE I have that is spec'd at <20 ohms output impedance. My guess though is that the Marantz output impedance is at least a couple hundred ohms.

If it wasn't such a pain to get my rack pulled out I'd measure the output impedance of my AV7005 just to get a general feel. It's pretty easy to do if you have a rheostat (or potentiometer, more commonly) of 25-50k and a voltmeter.

Edit: Had balanced and unbalanced reversed in relation to the 6k and 12k input impedances.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4058 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

No, e18.  No XLR but multichannel.  Comments in May column.

Thanks Kal, I'll make sure to buy May's edition.

- Alex
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post #4059 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Hard to say. Some amps I have have input impedance 6k ohms balanced, 12k ohms unbalanced. Even a number of these with inputs in parallel wouldn't be a problem on my old Yamaha preamp that has 47 ohms output impedance or a Proceed PRE I have that is spec'd at <20 ohms output impedance. My guess though is that the Marantz output impedance is at least a couple hundred ohms.

If it wasn't such a pain to get my rack pulled out I'd measure the output impedance of my AV7005 just to get a general feel. It's pretty easy to do if you have a rheostat (or potentiometer, more commonly) of 25-50k and a voltmeter.

I will check with my EE friends maybe they can help me measure it.

It really does not make sense though. The Outlaws are based on ATI and the 7500/7700 are >28K ohms which match the ATI 2007 series.

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post #4060 of 11874 Old 03-18-2013, 08:20 PM
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Measured the AV7005....was pretty easy to unplug one of the input cables from an amp instead of trying to get behind the processor. Came up with ~225 ohms. It's not a lab grade measurement but I think close enough to get a general idea. I'd think the 8801 would be no worse in this regard, but sometimes one is surprised.

I set the processor volume to output 1V (actually 1.040V) using 1kHz sine tone then, with the pot wiper and one end across the XLR pins 2 and 3, adjusted it until the voltage dropped to 1/2 the starting value (0.520V). Disconnected the pot and measured it's resistance at ~225 ohms.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4061 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Does anyone know the output impedance of the XLR outs?
Would this be an issue?

- Rich

Are we trusting the numbers in the manual for the AV8801? Serious question. I don't know if we are supposed to trust the manual for specs or if this group wants to measure independently.

This is from page 187 of the manual.
Quote:
Audio section
• Analog
Input sensitivity/Input impedance:
- Unbalanced input: 200 mV/47 kΩ
- Balanced input: 400 mV/94 kΩ
Frequency response: 10 Hz – 100 kHz — +1, –3 dB (DIRECT mode)
S/N: 105 dB (IHF–A weighted, DIRECT mode)
Distortion: 0.005 % (20 Hz – 20 kHz) (DIRECT mode)
Rated output:
- Unbalanced pre-output: 1.2 V
- Balanced pre-output: 2.4 V

That only shows the input impedance. But maybe the output is similar?
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post #4062 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 03:46 AM
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Output impedance should usually be lower.
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post #4063 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Measured the AV7005....was pretty easy to unplug one of the input cables from an amp instead of trying to get behind the processor. Came up with ~225 ohms. It's not a lab grade measurement but I think close enough to get a general idea. I'd think the 8801 would be no worse in this regard, but sometimes one is surprised.

I set the processor volume to output 1V (actually 1.040V) using 1kHz sine tone then, with the pot wiper and one end across the XLR pins 2 and 3, adjusted it until the voltage dropped to 1/2 the starting value (0.520V). Disconnected the pot and measured it's resistance at ~225 ohms.



Good post. So is it your opinion that your 7005 and possibly the 8801 match up to certain types of amplifiers better? If there's a range of sensitivity you feel the amp should be within and would you share that also. Thanks.
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post #4064 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 05:02 AM
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It was measured independently only because the spec isn't given in the manual.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4065 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

It was measured independently only because the spec isn't given in the manual.



Ok, what kind of amp(s) are you using with your Marantz? If you don't mind sharing.
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post #4066 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 05:11 AM
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225 ohms is low enough that it should work neutrally with just about any amplifier. Neutrally meaning the frequency response of the pre/pro output isn't affected by the power amp's input impedance. Keeping in mind the 1:10 rule of thumb for output:input impedance ratio it should work with an amp (or amps) having input impedance as low as 2250 ohms.

Personally, I've never seen an amp with input impedance lower than ~6000 (6k) but that doesn't mean examples thereof don't exist.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4067 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Ok, what kind of amp(s) are you using with your Marantz? If you don't mind sharing.

I"m using four QSC PLX-series pro audio amps. They have 12k ohms input impedance using balanced connections (which I am).

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4068 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 05:26 AM
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

I"m using four QSC PLX-series pro audio amps. They have 12k ohms input impedance using balanced connections (which I am).




That's right we talked before. Pretty close to the same input impedance as my Sunfire is. Your amps definitely don't lack the specs or the power smile.gif
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post #4069 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Good post. So is it your opinion that your 7005 and possibly the 8801 match up to certain types of amplifiers better? If there's a range of sensitivity you feel the amp should be within and would you share that also. Thanks.

Thanks, for doing this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

That's right we talked before. Pretty close to the same input impedance as my Sunfire is. Your amps definitely don't lack the specs or the power smile.gif

I do not think I should be a problem.

I am planning to bi-amp, so I think that effectively doubles the resistance which cuts the base number in half.

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post #4070 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 08:04 AM
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Re: XLR Splitting and amp input impedance.

I sent a support ticket to Outlaw and they are looking into it. In the meantime, I canceled my 7900 order.
I will reorder something once I have this straightened out.
Spec'ing the input impedance at <10K makes no sense at all, so this is some kind of typo.
How long has this spec been published this way tongue.gif

I spoke with Marantz and the output impedance is not a published spec.
The point was made by support that the output and input impedance should be matched.
However, how can you do that without the output impedance number?

There are powered splitter for about $30, so that is a potential solution.
In the meantime, support said that they will submit a request to Japan for this information, But there is no guarantee that it will be provided.
For reference, the MM8807 has an input impedance of 30K ohms.


EE's (or other knowledgeable folks jump in here).
It seems that you will cut the voltage in half but the power required from the preamp is related to the input impedance.
From experience with my Sunfire, I suspect that splitting to a 10K input impedance amp is not optimal with this preamp.

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post #4071 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Re: XLR Splitting and amp input impedance.

I sent a support ticket to Outlaw and they are looking into it. In the meantime, I canceled my 7900 order.
I will reorder something once I have this straightened out.
Spec'ing the input impedance at <10K makes no sense at all, so this is some kind of typo.
How long has this spec been published this way tongue.gif

I spoke with Marantz and the output impedance is not a published spec.
The point was made by support that the output and input impedance should be matched.
However, how can you do that without the output impedance number?

There are powered splitter for about $30, so that is a potential solution.
In the meantime, support said that they will submit a request to Japan for this information, But there is no guarantee that it will be provided.
For reference, the MM8807 has an input impedance of 30K ohms.


EE's (or other knowledgeable folks jump in here).
It seems that you will cut the voltage in half but the power required from the preamp is related to the input impedance.
From experience with my Sunfire, I suspect that splitting to a 10K input impedance amp is not optimal with this preamp.

- Rich



Could this be one of the reasons I heard no difference when I biamped my Revel's with the Sunfire, or are the speakers just limited by the internal crossovers as I've heard others explain?
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post #4072 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 08:44 AM
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I have a minor quibble with Kal's review. It mentions
Quote:
Marantz's non-Reference multichannel offerings consisted only of disc players and AVRs until late 2008, when they introduced the AV8003

The multichannel AV9000 pre/pro was released in summer of 1999. I don't believe it was considered part of their Reference line. The AV8003 was their second multichannel pre/pro, but the first to support HDMI.

Selden
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post #4073 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 09:14 AM
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Greetings,

I am now a member of the club and will be setting up my AV8801 tomorrow.. cool.gif


Regards,

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post #4074 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Ralph Potts View Post

Greetings,

I am now a member of the club and will be setting up my AV8801 tomorrow.. cool.gif


Regards,



Welcome to the thread and congrats on your 8801 Ralph smile.gif
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post #4075 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 10:03 AM
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Alright thanks all.

I will hang on to it for the time being, once we have the room in our new home set up I will do the calibration with Aud and see how it goes.

No harm hanging onto this thing another 6 months, not like they decrease in value smile.gif

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post #4076 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post


I spoke with Marantz and the output impedance is not a published spec.
The point was made by support that the output and input impedance should be matched.
However, how can you do that without the output impedance number?

- Rich

Marantz's support information is incorrect or, at best, misleading if taken at face value.

Matched output/input impedance is not used for this sort of interconnection of audio devices. This type of connection is voltage bridging in which the source output impedance is (or should be) much lower than the load input impedance.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4077 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Could this be one of the reasons I heard no difference when I biamped my Revel's with the Sunfire, or are the speakers just limited by the internal crossovers as I've heard others explain?

The latter, combined with feeding the amp full range signals at both inputs.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4078 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post


EE's (or other knowledgeable folks jump in here).
It seems that you will cut the voltage in half but the power required from the preamp is related to the input impedance.
From experience with my Sunfire, I suspect that splitting to a 10K input impedance amp is not optimal with this preamp.

- Rich

Considering the best information we have says the output impedance is ~225 ohms, then splitting to two 10k inputs (net 5k) is >1:20, well above the 1:10 rule of thumb.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4079 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Marantz's support information is incorrect or, at best, misleading if taken at face value.

Matched output/input impedance is not used for this sort of interconnection of audio devices. This type of connection is voltage bridging in which the source output impedance is (or should be) much lower than the load input impedance.

In their defense, I believe he meant matched so that the input impedance would not be too low.

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post #4080 of 11874 Old 03-19-2013, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Considering the best information we have says the output impedance is ~225 ohms, then splitting to two 10k inputs (net 5k) is >1:20, well above the 1:10 rule of thumb.

Thanks for this info.
Does the 7005 have the same output configuration?
HDAM and/or Op Amps.

I know that Oppo was not designed to directly drive an amp.
However, I have connected mine to my Sunfire 10K ohm inputs and it worked ok.
They are recommending only connecting to amps with 47K ohm or greater inputs.

I did not do much testing, but I felt splitting the XLR fronts with the Sunfire sounded a little flat.
However, The Onkyo 5507 worked well with XLR's split.

- Rich

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