Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 141 - AVS Forum
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

What were you listening to? Blu-ray? SACD? How was the signal being sent across the HDMI wire? LPCM? Or Bitstream? My preference for a test for someone like you (someone how can hear the difference in "better imaging" - since I'm not sure what that sounds like. Seriously. I think I probably lost hearing at loud concerts in my youth... ) would be to try again on an Oppo-105 - and let the Oppo-105 do the decoding, so it's just sending multi-channel LPCM along the HDMI.

I want to ensure the wire is the only difference, and not a decoding setting. I have heard many differences between bitstream across HDMI and multi-channel LPCM across the very same HDMI - due to different decoding settings - and usually outright bugs - in various receivers.

Bill, it was done with a variety of concert Blu-ray discs with both players set to bitsream the audio. On one of the discs, I chose the PCM 5.1 track (Elton John concert) to eliminate the decoding from the equation and the Audioquest Carbon cable was the better sounding of the two.

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Old 03-21-2013, 08:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post

Bill, it was done with a variety of concert Blu-ray discs with both players set to bitsream the audio. On one of the discs, I chose the PCM 5.1 track (Elton John concert) to eliminate the decoding from the equation and the Audioquest Carbon cable was the better sounding of the two.

PCM over HDMI is sent between video frames, that can cause additional jitter depending on the processor.

I have my Pronto programmed to switch between the HDMI, COAX, Oppo 7.1, and XLR outs.
They all sound different. Two are analog two a digital.

I'd love to know why. I use the 7.1 almost exclusively.

Perhaps others knew this, but I just discovered that the Bass setting LFE + Main sends bass to the sub in Direct and Pure Direct mode. This works on the HDMI, COAX, and XLR inputs. The analog 7.1 analog in's do not.

I will propose and LFE + Main setting to Oppo.
That would cover the bass'es (I couldn't resist) tongue.gif

- Rich

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Old 03-21-2013, 09:05 PM
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I just placed an order today for my 8801 , I'm going to pair it with a D Sonic M2-2000-5

as for power cords I have settled on Shunyata Venom 3 & Diamondback

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Old 03-21-2013, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Geronimo.USMC View Post

I will check this out when I get home. Did you update to the firmware released last night? Maybe the OP will update with the changelog for this firmware.
Just checked. I'm on the newest firmware. No problem here.

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Old 03-21-2013, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post


I have my Pronto programmed to switch between the HDMI, COAX, Oppo 7.1, and XLR outs.
They all sound different. Two are analog two a digital.

I'd love to know why. I use the 7.1 almost exclusively.

Have you tried anything like using a test tone through the player and simply measuring the voltage at a speaker terminal pair to see if they're all pushing the same level?

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:15 PM
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Firmware updates....

IMO, never update firmware unless you first know what it does (or is supposed to do).

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Geronimo.USMC View Post

Just checked. I'm on the newest firmware. No problem here.

Thanks for checking.

Sigh... Now I should publish a complete list of settings so any interested party can do a true test. And I'm just too tired to do that tonight.

I noticed this problem from day one - I just never complained about it before. And it's remained consistent after all the firmware updates. I only see it on the web-interface. The web-interface always insists the Loudness Management is turned on - even though I definitely have it turned off.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

...

I use the 7.1 almost exclusively.

Perhaps others knew this, but I just discovered that the Bass setting LFE + Main sends bass to the sub in Direct and Pure Direct mode. This works on the HDMI, COAX, and XLR inputs. The analog 7.1 analog in's do not.
...

- Rich
(groan inducing pun removed from quote) smile.gif

Rich - you mentioned earlier that bass-management is NOT in effect over the 7.1 inputs - which makes perfect sense. But I believe some people have said that individual speaker trims would still be in effect over the 7.1 inputs. When I tried, individual speaker trims (such as - raising the center channel by 5 db) had no effect for sources played through the 7.1 inputs.

Have you (or has anyone) tried the manual speaker trims while using the 7.1 inputs (NOT the graphic equalizer, but the simple DB trim for each channel)? From my experiments, the 7.1 inputs completely ignored the manual speaker trim settings.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

...
Perhaps others knew this, but I just discovered that the Bass setting LFE + Main sends bass to the sub in Direct and Pure Direct mode. This works on the HDMI, COAX, and XLR inputs. The analog 7.1 analog in's do not.

I will propose and LFE + Main setting to Oppo.
That would cover the bass'es (I couldn't resist) tongue.gif

- Rich

That makes sense. LFE+Main made more sense to me when someone explained *WHY* that option exists. It's intended for listening to stereo music - and using your system's sub(s) to support your stereo speakers. The mode was created to support sub-woofers when connected with RCA (or XLR) inputs instead of using speaker wire shared with the front speakers. (So maybe wiring your sub with speaker-wire shared with front speakers was the preferred method back then? I tried it once on a bookshelf-speaker system. But I blew the speakers during fireworks/explosions in a movie I was watching).

So the "LFE+Main" setting is for Stereo purists - not for movie listening. SO it makes perfect sense that it would work in both Direct and Pure Direct mode.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

Thanks for checking.

Sigh... Now I should publish a complete list of settings so any interested party can do a true test. And I'm just too tired to do that tonight.

I noticed this problem from day one - I just never complained about it before. And it's remained consistent after all the firmware updates. I only see it on the web-interface. The web-interface always insists the Loudness Management is turned on - even though I definitely have it turned off.
Did you try refreshing the page or even clearing your browser's cache?

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Old 03-22-2013, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

PCM over HDMI is sent between video frames, that can cause additional jitter depending on the processor.

I have my Pronto programmed to switch between the HDMI, COAX, Oppo 7.1, and XLR outs.
They all sound different. Two are analog two a digital.

I'd love to know why. I use the 7.1 almost exclusively.

Perhaps others knew this, but I just discovered that the Bass setting LFE + Main sends bass to the sub in Direct and Pure Direct mode. This works on the HDMI, COAX, and XLR inputs. The analog 7.1 analog in's do not.

I will propose and LFE + Main setting to Oppo.
That would cover the bass'es (I couldn't resist) tongue.gif

- Rich

There is no bass from the sub in the LFE+main setting via the XLR inputs unless you use Auto as for Direct and Pure Direct the display does indicate if you have it set LFE+main but in actuality the sub is bypassed.

Also RichB you still find the 7.1 inputs better than the XLR for stereo from the 105 In my findings the XLR input offers the closest comparison to running the 105 direct to the amp and even more so when the 105 is set to output DSD the 7.1 for stereo ( using the dedicated stereo outs with the FR/FL option set in the 105) doesn't sound as refined and has less overall seperation of instruments and not as full sounding.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:10 AM
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I'd like to make a suggestion for Comcast customers with seperate modems and routers. I recently purchased a new netgear gigabit wifi router as my old one was getting dated. While my son was online on his ps3 and I was streaming music and all our other devices were connected, his games started lagging. I suspected the dated modem and called Comcast about it, and they sent me a new one. To make a long story short, my speeds went from approx 17 down to nearly 25 down and all my slow connects on my AV gear and my sons ps3 lagging were gone. You might want to think about the age of your modem. The internet speeds increased over the 4 years I had mine, but it was never designed for 24 or 25 Mbps. Just a suggestion and everyone's experience might not be the same smile.gif
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I'd like to make a suggestion for Comcast customers with seperate modems and routers. I recently purchased a new netgear gigabit wifi router as my old one was getting dated. While my son was online on his ps3 and I was streaming music and all our other devices were connected, his games started lagging. I suspected the dated modem and called Comcast about it, and they sent me a new one. To make a long story short, my speeds went from approx 17 down to nearly 25 down and all my slow connects on my AV gear and my sons ps3 lagging were gone. You might want to think about the age of your modem. The internet speeds increased over the 4 years I had mine, but it was never designed for 24 or 25 Mbps. Just a suggestion and everyone's experience might not be the same smile.gif

My speeds are 27mbps and I use the NG 4500 as well which modem did they send you?
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:32 AM
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My speeds are 27mbps and I use the NG 4500 as well which modem did they send you?



I'll take a look when I get up in the morning and post the number. Both old and new are Arris modems. After I hooked up the new one it was a huge difference for me.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:36 AM
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I'll take a look when I get up in the morning and post the number. Both old and new are Arris modems. After the I hooked up the new one it was a huge difference for me.

Cool I have an Arris as well they updated my area a few years back and they said the modem needed replacing for there new setup as well as the HDDVR's.

Latters!
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:49 AM
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Cool I have an Arris as well they updated my area a few years back and they said the modem needed replacing for there new setup as well as the HDDVR's.

Latters!



I hear ya, maybe a new modem is in order. The old Arris model #TM602G/CT new Arris model #TM822G/CT. Now I want their newer DVR smile.gif
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Old 03-22-2013, 05:41 AM
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Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

Have you tried anything like using a test tone through the player and simply measuring the voltage at a speaker terminal pair to see if they're all pushing the same level?

LPCM over HDMI and COAX are digital but very different paths. HDMI must be buffered and re-clocked so the possibility exists.

I suppose I could ask my EE friends for assistance.

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Old 03-22-2013, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

(groan inducing pun removed from quote) smile.gif

Rich - you mentioned earlier that bass-management is NOT in effect over the 7.1 inputs - which makes perfect sense. But I believe some people have said that individual speaker trims would still be in effect over the 7.1 inputs. When I tried, individual speaker trims (such as - raising the center channel by 5 db) had no effect for sources played through the 7.1 inputs.

Have you (or has anyone) tried the manual speaker trims while using the 7.1 inputs (NOT the graphic equalizer, but the simple DB trim for each channel)? From my experiments, the 7.1 inputs completely ignored the manual speaker trim settings.

From my testing, the 7.1 ins do not respond to trims nor the bass LFE + Main setting.
All other input do.

- Rich

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Old 03-22-2013, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

That makes sense. LFE+Main made more sense to me when someone explained *WHY* that option exists. It's intended for listening to stereo music - and using your system's sub(s) to support your stereo speakers. The mode was created to support sub-woofers when connected with RCA (or XLR) inputs instead of using speaker wire shared with the front speakers. (So maybe wiring your sub with speaker-wire shared with front speakers was the preferred method back then? I tried it once on a bookshelf-speaker system. But I blew the speakers during fireworks/explosions in a movie I was watching).

So the "LFE+Main" setting is for Stereo purists - not for movie listening. SO it makes perfect sense that it would work in both Direct and Pure Direct mode.

With some subs, you can also send the Unbalanced (RCA) outs to the sub as well. My friend does this with his Martin Logan Grotto I sub. The sub has crossover and level settings to do the rest.

One thing, I would expect the LFE + Main is also in effect for movies too wink.gif

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

There is no bass from the sub in the LFE+main setting via the XLR inputs unless you use Auto as for Direct and Pure Direct the display does indicate if you have it set LFE+main but in actuality the sub is bypassed.

I do not understand what you are saying.
I have the XLRs connected to the BDP-105 and I use the Analog select remote code that is programmed into my Pronto. When I do that, the LFE + Main and all other sound processing is available. That means the AV8801 is capable of digitizing the Balanced In.
Quote:
Also RichB you still find the 7.1 inputs better than the XLR for stereo from the 105 In my findings the XLR input offers the closest comparison to running the 105 direct to the amp and even more so when the 105 is set to output DSD the 7.1 for stereo ( using the dedicated stereo outs with the FR/FL option set in the 105) doesn't sound as refined and has less overall seperation of instruments and not as full sounding.

I like both the XLR and 7.1 analog ins.
The XLR sounds brighter (with more high-end) and sometime more dynamic as a result.
The 7.1 fuller. Since the XLR provides much more processing opportunities and bass management they are also a great choice.

- Rich

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Old 03-22-2013, 09:19 AM
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Does anyone know if the AV8001 has ARC (Audio Rate Control) circuit?

- Alex
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:26 AM
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... or ARC = Audio Return Channel (over HDMI) ?
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:27 AM
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Does anyone know if the AV8001 has ARC (Audio Rate Control) circuit?

I have never seen any mention or indication that it does.


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http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

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Old 03-22-2013, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I do not understand what you are saying.
I have the XLRs connected to the BDP-105 and I use the Analog select remote code that is programmed into my Pronto. When I do that, the LFE + Main and all other sound processing is available. That means the AV8801 is capable of digitizing the Balanced In.
I like both the XLR and 7.1 analog ins.
The XLR sounds brighter (with more high-end) and sometime more dynamic as a result.
The 7.1 fuller. Since the XLR provides much more processing opportunities and bass management they are also a great choice.

- Rich

Rich,

You have an interesting sound observation of using XLR vs. 7.1 signal path. Since it's your own observation, therefore it's always right:)

In theory, I'd expect more dynamic response from pristine 7.1 analog path since the analog signal doesn't have to go though the extra ADC to DAC path. My receiver's 6.1 analog direct signal path give me much more dynamic response compared to CD input path which gets digitized.

- Alex
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:35 AM
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I have never seen any mention or indication that it does.

Thanks Kal,

I was studying ARC (HDMI phase lock loop) circuit and find it very useful for clock recovery while minimizing jitter at bay. Do you feel AV8801 HDMI signal path is good enough for playing high res music, or do I have to rely on a much better Blu-Ray player via its analog path?

- Alex
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

... or ARC = Audio Return Channel (over HDMI) ?

I was asking about Audio Rate Control. This Phase Lock Loop Frac N. synthesizer circuit idea came from digital radio world which help suppress ( minimize) transmission jitter components.

Please note, this is a vey complicated clock recovery circuit and can harm sound reproduction if it's not design properly.

- Alex
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AlxG View Post

Rich,

You have an interesting sound observation of using XLR vs. 7.1 signal path. Since it's your own observation, therefore it's always right:)

In theory, I'd expect more dynamic response from pristine 7.1 analog path since the analog signal doesn't have to go though the extra ADC to DAC path. My receiver's 6.1 analog direct signal path give me much more dynamic response compared to CD input path which gets digitized.

You also have an interesting expectation. Since it is your expectation, therefore it is always right smile.gif

Since the signal is manipulated in the XLR path, then anything is possible wink.gif

That said, I feel the 7.1 is the more pristine path so I use it.
However, many folks like to use their subs for 2 channel, in which case, the XLR's are the way to go.
Some folks, prefer the XLR sound. Therefore, they are right wink.gif

- Rich

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Old 03-22-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

You also have an interesting expectation. Since it is your expectation, therefore it is always right smile.gif

Since the signal is manipulated in the XLR path, then anything is possible wink.gif

That said, I feel the 7.1 is the more pristine path so I use it.
However, many folks like to use their subs for 2 channel, in which case, the XLR's are the way to go.
Some folks, prefer the XLR sound. Therefore, they are right wink.gif

- Rich

Rich,

I don't like the sub in the loop when I listen to 2-channel music. In my opinion and my preference, I've always felt that bass and drums are better played back in their proper soundstage space without a sub. My speakers can easily go down to 25Hz based on my Near-Field and Far-Field measurements.

In my opinion, bi-amping is more important to me than bass management for 2-channel playback. My lower/bass section of the loudspeaker is measures at 2.3 Ohms from 60 Hz to around 150 Hz and almost look like a short-circuit with most amplifiers(:

- Alex
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

You also have an interesting expectation. Since it is your expectation, therefore it is always right smile.gif

Since the signal is manipulated in the XLR path, then anything is possible wink.gif

That said, I feel the 7.1 is the more pristine path so I use it.
However, many folks like to use their subs for 2 channel, in which case, the XLR's are the way to go.
Some folks, prefer the XLR sound. Therefore, they are right wink.gif

- Rich

Rich,

Speaking about our 2-channel music priorities, how good is AV8801 (7.1-input) analog section compared to other dedicated 2-channel preamps?

My wife is objecting to addition equipment in our family room, so I'm looking for good multi-purpose pre-pro that I can live with for 2-channel playback...

- Alex
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:58 AM
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When connecting the oppo via the analog out to the av8801, you cannot utilize the room correction.... this this correct?

i ask because i am reading that some of you are using the room correction for movies and not for multi channel music.

if the room correction is used to make the sound better for the given "room" then wouldn't it ALSO benefit for multi channel music?

thanks,
Bill
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Ken Kreisel Dxd 12012 Subwoofer , Marantz Av8801 , Receivers Amplifiers , Audyssey , Integra
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