Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 142 - AVS Forum
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post #4231 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 10:12 AM
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baranowski.

It's a matter of personal preference.

When people have invested a lot of time and money in quality speakers and room treatments, the improvements provided by the room equalization software can be relatively small. Also, quite a few people have reported that they don't like the results.

Doing Audyssey room equalization correctly does involve some tricky details which aren't mentioned in the simple instructions provided by the manufacturers. (Hence the existence of Audyssey 101 at http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#post_21782993) Also, in other discussions on AVS, a number of people have discovered that they had received defective microphones with their receivers. I don't know how much these two problems have contributed to the dislike.

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post #4232 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

This sounds pretty cool. How do the modded versions handle the pushed Marantz updates?

The mods will not affect the functionality of the Marantz, so firmware updates will apply as usual.

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post #4233 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baranowski View Post

When connecting the oppo via the analog out to the av8801, you cannot utilize the room correction.... this this correct?

i ask because i am reading that some of you are using the room correction for movies and not for multi channel music.

if the room correction is used to make the sound better for the given "room" then wouldn't it ALSO benefit for multi channel music?

thanks,
Bill

Bill,

You can't apply room-correctional to 7.1 input path. In my opinion, a well recorded 2-channel CD should be played through a 2-channel path. I've not found a system that I like that can properly take a 2-channel music and re-mix it into a 5-channel playback.

Music and movies typically use two different recording methods. Typically movies add acoustical (proximity reflection that bounce off of the objects) effects in their proper acoustical space by placing individual microphones such a front, right, left and surrounds.

2-channel recordings rely on us to properly place our speakers in order to recreate an illusion of stereo effect of the stereo image. For example, you'll need to play a mono-correlated pink noise through your speakers in order to for you to hear a single column of noise in your front-center location and not being able to hear the tone that coming out of the left or the right speaker.

I can't comment on room corrections since I've never heard the music with room corrections applied.

- Alex
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post #4234 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

... as I now know for my self that its a complete Myth that all hdmi cables are the same rolleyes.gif

Agreed - love it!

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post #4235 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by AlxG View Post

Rich,

I don't like the sub in the loop when I listen to 2-channel music. In my opinion and my preference, I've always felt that bass and drums are better played back in their proper soundstage space without a sub. My speakers can easily go down to 25Hz based on my Near-Field and Far-Field measurements.

In my opinion, bi-amping is more important to me than bass management for 2-channel playback. My lower/bass section of the loudspeaker is measures at 2.3 Ohms from 60 Hz to around 150 Hz and almost look like a short-circuit with most amplifiers(:

My speakers are flat down to the low 20's, so I agree with you.
I use the 7.1 and Pure Direct and I believe it provides the most accurate and detailed sound in my room.

I also go so far as to turn off all video processing including: Standby pass-through, Lip-Sync, Video Conversion, and I set Video Mode to Game.

My speakers lowest impedance is 3 ohms so they are moderately hard to drive.
Currently, I am using the Outlaw 7500 (made my ATI) but I have an ATI3005 on order for a little extra juice.

I did not get the 7 channel amp to bi-amp because the owners and folks at ATI said it was unnecessary. I can always upgrade the ATI3005 and add the two channels.
I like its peak indicator so I can have some idea if I am clipping the amp. Most owners say they never see it come on, so I expect that I am all set.
This is a beast of an amp.

- Rich

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post #4236 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

My speakers are flat down to the low 20's, so I agree with you.
I use the 7.1 and Pure Direct and I believe it provides the most accurate and detailed sound in my room.

I also go so far as to turn off all video processing including: Standby pass-through, Lip-Sync, Video Conversion, and I set Video Mode to Game.

My speakers lowest impedance is 3 ohms so they are moderately hard to drive.
Currently, I am using the Outlaw 7500 (made my ATI) but I have an ATI3005 on order for a little extra juice.

I did not get the 7 channel amp to bi-amp because the owners and folks at ATI said it was unnecessary. I can always upgrade the ATI3005 and add the two channels.
I like its peak indicator so I can have some idea if I am clipping the amp. Most owners say they never see it come on, so I expect that I am all set.
This is a beast of an amp.

- Rich



Hey Rich. What was your conclusion of the Outlaw 7900, and why did you end up going with the ATI?
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post #4237 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Hey Rich. What was your conclusion of the Outlaw 7900, and why did you end up going with the ATI?

Oh yeah, I forgot.

I got an answer back from Marantz:
Quote:
I received a fairly quick response from Engineering stating that the output impedance of the Balanced out is 220 ohms. That should be low enough where it won't cause any frequency drop.

From what I read the amp's input impedance should be 10 times the output impedance.
So the >10K ohm impedance is not problem bi-amping with a >10K impedance amp.

Unfortunately the B-Stock 7900 is no longer available.
After reading posts from ATI 3000 series owners and emailing ATI, I decided the ATI 3000 (essentially the same as the 7900) should have no problem powering my Salons.
IMO, The ATI is not as pretty as the Outlaw but it does have a peak indicator so I can see if I am clipping.
Also, I can always get it upgraded to a 7 channel should I get the urge smile.gif

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post #4238 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

The mods will not affect the functionality of the Marantz, so firmware updates will apply as usual.

Dave

Do you feel this takes the 8801 to a new level in SQ & video?
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post #4239 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Oh yeah, I forgot.

I got an answer back from Marantz:
From what I read the amp's input impedance should be 10 times the output impedance.
So the >10K ohm impedance is not problem bi-amping with a >10K impedance amp.

Unfortunately the B-Stock 7900 is no longer available.
After reading posts from ATI 3000 series owners and emailing ATI, I decided the ATI 3000 (essentially the same as the 7900) should have no problem powering my Salons.
IMO, The ATI is not as pretty as the Outlaw but it does have a peak indicator so I can see if I am clipping.
Also, I can always get it upgraded to a 7 channel should I get the urge smile.gif

- Rich



So do you feel that that amp would match up well if you used it without biamping?
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post #4240 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

My speakers are flat down to the low 20's, so I agree with you.
I use the 7.1 and Pure Direct and I believe it provides the most accurate and detailed sound in my room.

I also go so far as to turn off all video processing including: Standby pass-through, Lip-Sync, Video Conversion, and I set Video Mode to Game.

My speakers lowest impedance is 3 ohms so they are moderately hard to drive.
Currently, I am using the Outlaw 7500 (made my ATI) but I have an ATI3005 on order for a little extra juice.

I did not get the 7 channel amp to bi-amp because the owners and folks at ATI said it was unnecessary. I can always upgrade the ATI3005 and add the two channels.
I like its peak indicator so I can have some idea if I am clipping the amp. Most owners say they never see it come on, so I expect that I am all set.
This is a beast of an amp.

- Rich

I've decided to bi-amp, based on the classical music material that I listen to. Way too many times, the average musical passage is recorded & played-back at low volume levels. So naturally, I crank-up the volume and with my luck the crescendo kicks-in and scares the living lights out of me. During some of crescendos, the peak to average ratio can be as high as 30dB (1,000 more) which can easily not only fry the tweeter but also the midrange driver.

[Dramatization for illustration purposes] Let's assume, our average playback requires 1 Watt, and during crescendo, the amp is being asked to sink 1,000 Watts into the speaker. And, if the amp can't deliver 1,000 Watts... The output stage will saturate and produce enormous amount of intermodulation distortion and in wost case the sine waves will become square wave .. will fry the tweeter and midrange drivers.

There's very high probability that low frequencies will demand much higher output levels, the bass section amplifier may clip ... However, its clipped signal will not cross-couple into mids and highs if the speaker is bi-amped with 2 separate amplifiers.

There is an article which states that 50% of power will be distributed for frequencies from 50-350 Hz, and other 50% from 350-20,000Hz. Base on my initial calculation, it's around 200Hz.

- Alex
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post #4241 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:34 PM
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I tried bi amping and unless you bypass the internal crossovers of the speakers I feel it sounds worse, the crossovers are limiting what your trying to achieve. True bi amping is with an external crossover. Why not just add more power?
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post #4242 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Oh yeah, I forgot.

I got an answer back from Marantz:
From what I read the amp's input impedance should be 10 times the output impedance.
So the >10K ohm impedance is not problem bi-amping with a >10K impedance amp.

Unfortunately the B-Stock 7900 is no longer available.
After reading posts from ATI 3000 series owners and emailing ATI, I decided the ATI 3000 (essentially the same as the 7900) should have no problem powering my Salons.
IMO, The ATI is not as pretty as the Outlaw but it does have a peak indicator so I can see if I am clipping.
Also, I can always get it upgraded to a 7 channel should I get the urge smile.gif

- Rich

Rich,

I agree with your approach. If you would bi-amp 7900, the bass and midrange amp would look like 5kOhms load to AV8801. Since the amp's input is not a constant impedance, the impedancy will vary with change in applied amplitude and frequency... No one would know how your preamp and amp would interact unless you'd try it out.

- Alex
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post #4243 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I do not understand what you are saying.

Your not using Analog direct for the XLR its being digitized, on the 8801's remote you try the "Pure" button to toggle between Auto (this sounds brighter and not as pure) next will be Direct ( still sounds processed) and lastly Pure direct ( not bright but fuller and is indicated by a red button behind the panel).

I have the XLRs connected to the BDP-105 and I use the Analog select remote code that is programmed into my Pronto. When I do that, the LFE + Main and all other sound processing is available. That means the AV8801 is capable of digitizing the Balanced In.
I like both the XLR and 7.1 analog ins.

I turned my sub all the way up and the only time its heard using the LFE+Main is in the Auto mode keep pressing using the 8801's remote to Direct and Pure Direct and there is no sound from the sub!


The XLR sounds brighter (with more high-end) and sometime more dynamic as a result.

Not here!
The 7.1 fuller. Since the XLR provides much more processing opportunities and bass management they are also a great choice.

XLR should sound as full if in the Pure direct mode wink.gif

- Rich
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post #4244 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I tried bi amping and unless you bypass the internal crossovers of the speakers I feel it sounds worse, the crossovers are limiting what your trying to achieve. True bi amping is with an external crossover. Why not just add more power?

What does internal or external cross-over have to do with bi-amping.

In my situation, the crossover in my mid/highs module is a high pass filter with a cut-off frequency at 200Hz, so all of the frequencies are attenuated by the filter below 200Hz... And the bass section has low pass with a cut-off filter frequency at 200Hz, so all of the frequencies above 200Hz get attenuated.

Unfortunately, there are lots of speaker with bi-amp section that operate at 2kHz , which in my opinion is useless.

Have you tried to bi-amp you speaker with physically two separate amplifiers?

- Alex
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post #4245 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AlxG View Post

Rich,

You have an interesting sound observation of using XLR vs. 7.1 signal path. Since it's your own observation, therefore it's always right:)

In theory, I'd expect more dynamic response from pristine 7.1 analog path since the analog signal doesn't have to go though the extra ADC to DAC path. My receiver's 6.1 analog direct signal path give me much more dynamic response compared to CD input path which gets digitized.

I've assigned the XLR input to the CD path for using the Oppo 105's XLR outs for easy 2/ch switching and I leave Bluray for hdmi and switch the input signal to 7.1 when I rarely use it from the Oppo. when "Pure Direct" is selected its not "Digitized" at all on the CD input if the XLR input is assigned there, unless its not the "Pure Direct "mode.
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post #4246 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by baranowski View Post

When connecting the oppo via the analog out to the av8801, you cannot utilize the room correction.... this this correct?

i ask because i am reading that some of you are using the room correction for movies and not for multi channel music.

if the room correction is used to make the sound better for the given "room" then wouldn't it ALSO benefit for multi channel music?

thanks,
Bill

You are indeed correct I use Audyssey for all multi channel playback and the sound leaves a non Audyessy multich in the dust! its new for me as i use to use the 7.1 inputs to an Anthem avm 20.v2 from an Oppo 95 and with my room well treated I would argue till blue in the face there could be no need for additional harm to the signal (DSD purist here) kal and a few others have been trying to tell us this for years and I whole heartily believe them now and as a result my sacd collection is now growing faster as I scramble to get my hands on more multich recordings, It can be added the way the 8801 handles all signals with "Kid gloves" and is capable of unleashing there full sonic potential while maintaining its tonal and Harmonic integrity wink.gif
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post #4247 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I've assigned the XLR input to the CD path for using the Oppo 105's XLR outs for easy 2/ch switching and I leave Bluray for hdmi and switch the input signal to 7.1 when I rarely use it from the Oppo. when "Pure Direct" is selected its not "Digitized" at all on the CD input if the XLR input is assigned there, unless its not the "Pure Direct "mode.

Thanks for educating me:D

- Alex
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post #4248 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

You are indeed correct I use Audyssey for all multi channel playback and the sound leaves a non Audyessy multich in the dust! its new for me as i use to use the 7.1 inputs to an Anthem avm 20.v2 from an Oppo 95 and with my room well treated I would argue till blue in the face there could be no need for additional harm to the signal (DSD purist here) kal and a few others have been trying to tell us this for years and I whole heartily believe them now and as a result my sacd collection is now growing faster as I scramble to get my hands on more multich recordings, It can be added the way the 8801 handles all signals with "Kid gloves" and is capable of unleashing there full sonic potential while maintaining its tonal and Harmonic integrity wink.gif

Since I've never heard music with Odyssey engages, I can't begin to form an opinion. It's good to know that it improve the sound quality.

How does it sound with 2-channel music material and a 2-channel playback mode?

- Alex
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post #4249 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlxG View Post

What does internal or external cross-over have to do with bi-amping.

In my situation, the crossover in my mid/highs module is a high pass filter with a cut-off frequency at 200Hz, so all of the frequencies are attenuated by the filter below 200Hz... And the bass section has low pass with a cut-off filter frequency at 200Hz, so all of the frequencies above 200Hz get attenuated.

Unfortunately, there are lots of speaker with bi-amp section that operate at 2kHz , which in my opinion is useless.

Have you tried to bi-amp you speaker with physically two separate amplifiers?



It has everything to do with, or else why did so many high end speaker companies stop making separate binding posts to bi amp? One answer, because people were messing up the "the sound" of their speaker, the one thing that sets them apart from others. That's why IMO my Revel's sounded no different when bi amped, I think they are made that way. I bi amped with my Sunfire 7 channel amp. But it makes no difference, it's an identical amp powering the woofers and an identical amp powering the mids and highs. Hey if it makes people feel good then go ahead but there's nothing to gain, unless you bypass the internal crossovers and go external. It's not just my opinion it's shared by many in the audio world. I should of just said dude it's a gimmick wink.gif if you think your internal crossovers aren't limiting you when bi amping then check out what I state. Have you ever read a serious review where the reviewer says I have speaker X bi amped with certain amps? Nope and there's a reason.
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post #4250 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by dahlgren View Post

Do you feel this takes the 8801 to a new level in SQ & video?

I have not had an AV8801 in my system, whether stock or upgraded. I can only speak of my SE Onkyo PR-SC5508 vs other processors that I've had. I like it so much, I'm kind of wondering if the demo Krell S-1200U 3D that I will be getting next week will be any better. I have had an SE Marantz AV8003, and it was also very nice. Definitely better than the stock AV7005 I also had. The video improvement is amazing, and the SQ gets clearer, tighter bass, and more refined (after many hours of break in). I imagine the AV8801 would improve in those areas as well. I like my SE Onkyo better than the $8K Arcam AV888 I had, so it's quite a good value too. And, he provides a 14 day money back guarantee.

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post #4251 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AlxG View Post

Since I've never heard music with Odyssey engages, I can't begin to form an opinion. It's good to know that it improve the sound quality.

How does it sound with 2-channel music material and a 2-channel playback mode?

It's an interesting option that I use on occasion with my mains set to small and sub engaged with Audyssey on 2/ch lets shall we say the music is presented differently or perhaps the timing is better preserved as the corrected acoustics allows for more precise imaging and better defined bass, its not what one is use to if your normally use to listening to 2/ch without it but upon listening for a while I like what it brings to the table , you do have the option as well to bypas the FR/FL and Audyssey all else in this case correct only the sub to hear the difference it can make. I also like to use the Dnamic EQ as it restores the fullness to the sound. upon some quick A/B between it and the 105 in pure direct it can come up flat sounding until your ears get use to the sound of it again, but its definitely something one will have to judge for ones self.

I personally like it and only brings more enjoyment to my music when I want something different cool.gif
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post #4252 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

So do you feel that that amp would match up well if you used it without biamping?

Yes, according to Marantz it should.
The Outlaw is same input impedance as the Sunfire.

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post #4253 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

I've assigned the XLR input to the CD path for using the Oppo 105's XLR outs for easy 2/ch switching and I leave Bluray for hdmi and switch the input signal to 7.1 when I rarely use it from the Oppo. when "Pure Direct" is selected its not "Digitized" at all on the CD input if the XLR input is assigned there, unless its not the "Pure Direct "mode.

I have the XLR assigned, COAX, HDMI, and 7.1 all assigned to the Blu-ray input.
I switch by sending the direct input codes from my Pronto.
Switching is <1 second so it is very easy to compare without delay.
I stand by my observations.

What makes you think that Pure Direct does not digitize the XLR inputs.
Bass management and all other features work.
Did you open the case and observe the path of the bits? wink.gif
The manual is vague.

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post #4254 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

It has everything to do with, or else why did so many high end speaker companies stop making separate binding posts to bi amp? One answer, because people were messing up the "the sound" of their speaker, the one thing that sets them apart from others. That's why IMO my Revel's sounded no different when bi amped, I think they are made that way. I bi amped with my Sunfire 7 channel amp. But it makes no difference, it's an identical amp powering the woofers and an identical amp powering the mids and highs. Hey if it makes people feel good then go ahead but there's nothing to gain, unless you bypass the internal crossovers and go external. It's not just my opinion it's shared by many in the audio world. I should of just said dude it's a gimmick wink.gif if you think your internal crossovers aren't limiting you when bi amping then check out what I state. Have you ever read a serious review where the reviewer says I have speaker X bi amped with certain amps? Nope and there's a reason.

It is good that you did not hear a difference bi-amping.
You should not have. The only purpose would be to prevent clipping from the bass affecting the highs.

Sunfire amps are not easily clipped smile.gif

- Rich

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post #4255 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

You are indeed correct I use Audyssey for all multi channel playback and the sound leaves a non Audyessy multich in the dust! its new for me as i use to use the 7.1 inputs to an Anthem avm 20.v2 from an Oppo 95 and with my room well treated I would argue till blue in the face there could be no need for additional harm to the signal (DSD purist here) kal and a few others have been trying to tell us this for years and I whole heartily believe them now and as a result my sacd collection is now growing faster as I scramble to get my hands on more multich recordings, It can be added the way the 8801 handles all signals with "Kid gloves" and is capable of unleashing there full sonic potential while maintaining its tonal and Harmonic integrity wink.gif

I looked in the dust and could not find your sound tongue.gif

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post #4256 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 02:12 PM
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I need a little help, please!

I’ve just got my AV8801 and I’m wondering if there is a difference in sound quality installing it with the Panamax 5400 or direct in the outlet (I know that Panamax doesn’t work well with power amplifiers)
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post #4257 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adler98 View Post

I need a little help, please!

I’ve just got my AV8801 and I’m wondering if there is a difference in sound quality installing it with the Panamax 5400 or direct in the outlet (I know that Panamax doesn’t work well with power amplifiers)

If you have seen my posts, you know I am not a fan.
You can try it though, but I doubt there will be any difference.
I understand the desire to protect your gear.

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post #4258 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 02:20 PM
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I would definetly plug into the Panamax. The reason the rule of thumb is to not plug a power amp into the power conditioner is the current draw limitations. The amp needs to draw more current. The 8801 is a pre-amp and does not draw enough current to warrant the afore mentioned scenario. Stable voltage and electronics are a good match.
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post #4259 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

It is good that you did not hear a difference bi-amping.
You should not have. The only purpose would be to prevent clipping from the bass affecting the highs.

Sunfire amps are not easily clipped smile.gif

- Rich



I was actually wondering why you were going that route Rich. I think in my case the sound suffered so I went back to a single amp. I would love to hear how my speakers would sound bypassing the internal crossovers.
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post #4260 of 11874 Old 03-22-2013, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

Given that firmware updates are fairly rare - I have a perfect short-term solution for problems like this.

Buy a long ethernet cable (50 foot, or 100 foot, or whatever you need). And simply string it from your nearest physical ethernet connection directly to your Marantz. Just let the cable drape over the middle of the floor, the couch, the dining room table, whatever. Then - after the firmware update is done - remove the cable, bundle it back up, and put it back in the storage closest where it belongs.

I've actually done this a number of times when needing a "temporary" internet connection in a location in the house that just didn't want to play well with my wireless network or whatever the problem was.

Alternatively I guess you could always physically move the Marantz next to an ethernet hub - just for the amount of time it takes to do the update. You don't need an attached monitor to perform the update. The display window on the front of the Marantz gives you all the details you need to step through the firmware update. I just think "really long ethernet cable" is a simpler stop-gap measure.

I have so many devices in my home theater that need Ethernet connectivity that I snaked a CAT 6 cable to my hem theater. Beats WiFi and temporarily stringing Ethernet cables!
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