Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 154 - AVS Forum
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post #4591 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post


I was using XLR for the fronts, center, and surrounds earlier, but I had to switch over to RCA. It does make a difference - a huge difference - with my amps. Simply using XLR instead of RCA adds at least a 6db gain to the signal between the Marantz and my amps. The problem was - running with that much of a built-in gain - Audyssey could not properly calibrate my system. Audyssey set the trim to -12db on multiple channels in an effort to make my system quieter. And if you hit -12db on the trim from Audyssey, basically it means "I give up - too much...." - because -12db is a hardware-based limit for the trim adjustments. SO I switched from XLR to RCA on my fronts, center, and surrounds - which effectively reduced the signal to the amp by at least 6db on those channels. After that, when I re-ran the Audyssey calibration, Audyssey was happy (no -12db channels).

Yes, it may or may not be a problem depending on your gear. If the amp connected to the xlr has higher gain and or the speakers connected to the amp on the xlrs are of higher sensitivity those things contribute to that problem.

There are a few ways to address if it occurs. As you did, try RCA all around or if the amps have gain controls you can turn down the ones that are too "hot", or there are line level attenuators available.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4592 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 12:13 PM
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I just ordered the unit and was wondering if I could use two of the 11 as additional front l/r outs to 2 rel subs that I have? I currently have them co-wired to my fronts with an intregra 9.8. It is difficult to calibrate the subs that way. I have a separate .1 sub, the rels are strictly for the fronts
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post #4593 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 02:59 PM
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Audyssey has my front left speaker at -11.5, all the others between -8.0 and -10.5. Using XLR
From what I am reading, this is still okay, or should I consider RCA or attenuators?
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post #4594 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cal87 View Post

Audyssey has my front left speaker at -11.5, all the others between -8.0 and -10.5. Using XLR
From what I am reading, this is still okay, or should I consider RCA or attenuators?

Your good! after Audyssey and using my Anthem MCA30 my center came in at -11.5 using XLR ,I did switch to RCA and got -4.5 just to see what would happen.
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post #4595 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 03:25 PM
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Yeah, that's about right. Balanced outputs typically have 2x voltage swing compared to their unbalanced counterparts. Doubling or halving the voltage is a +/-6dB change.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #4596 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 03:43 PM
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I just ordered the 8801 and was wondering if i could use two (2) of the 11 as additional front L/R outs to 2 REL sub woofers that I have?
I currently have them co-wired to my fronts L/R with an Integra 9.8.
It is difficult to calibrate the subs that way. I have a separate .1 sub, the REL's are strictly for the fronts.

Sorry if this is posted twice, I could not find it.
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post #4597 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee14 View Post

I just ordered the 8801 and was wondering if i could use two (2) of the 11 as additional front L/R outs to 2 REL sub woofers that I have?
I currently have them co-wired to my fronts L/R with an Integra 9.8.
It is difficult to calibrate the subs that way. I have a separate .1 sub, the REL's are strictly for the fronts.

Sorry if this is posted twice, I could not find it.

Trying to figure this out.... To make sure I understand - you have 3 subs? You want 1-and-only-1 of these subs to be the "normal" sub-woofer. And you want to treat the other two subs as if they are "part" of your front left/right mains?

Freaky. The AV8801 is designed to handle 2 subs - but only if you hook them up as SW1 and SW2.

I think you could get what you want - if you can use RCA for one purpose and XLR for the other. Since both sets of pre-outs are live at the same time, you could drive your Front Left/Right with the XLR Left/Right outputs, and control your subs-pretending-to-be-mains with the RCA Left/Right outputs.

Unfortunately, I don't see a way to do that with the "extra" XLR outputs (heights and widths). I was checking to see if the AV8801 included a "bi-amp" option to produce extra front left/right outputs - but I don't see one. So the only way I see to get what I think you're asking for is to use both the XLR and the RCA outputs for the Front Left/Right.
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post #4598 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 04:39 PM
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Your quote:
"I think you could get what you want - if you can RCA for one purpose and XLR for the other. Since both sets of pre-outs are live at the same time, you could drive your Front Left/Right with the XLR Left/Right outputs, and control your subs-pretending-to-be-mains with the RCA Left/Right outputs."

You were right as to what I want to do.

I may try the XLR/RCA combo for the front but am concerned with some of the threads I read about having a hard time calibrating the room with mixing of connectors OR if one pair (RCA) is used does it
defeat /shut off the XLR outputs.

Any other suggestions ?

Greg
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post #4599 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 05:07 PM
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I don't think mixing RCA and XLR will cause any problems.

But I think your mixing subs on the Front Left/Right channels will cause some HUGE calibration problems.

First issue - speaker distance. When running Audyssey, the 1st microphone position measured is the Primary Listening position. It's used to calculate the distance to your speakers. With subs, distance is already a little tricky. They are often listed as "further-away-then-they-actually-are", because it's not really distance - it's the delay that's being measured. My point is - I doubt you're going to be able to get the Left-Sub to be at the same distance/delay as the Left-Main. And the same for your Right-Sub and Right-Main. Since Audyssey is simply going to have a single measurement for distance to your left speaker - I'm guessing the delay for your sub is going to be "off" by a certain amount. So your sound imaging is already taking a hit because you don't have an independent delay/distance value for your subs that are pretending to be part of the mains.

Second issue - Audyssey software. I'm 90% sure (I'm guessing - but I think I'm right) - that Audyssey uses different algorithms for calibrating subs vs calibrating "normal" speakers. The Marantz is designed to separately calibrate 2 sub-woofers - if they are driven by the SW1 and SW2 signals. If you take a sub and try to calibrate-it/control-it while sharing the main-front Left/Right signals, I think the result will be "undefined" at best.
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post #4600 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 05:41 PM
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Your Quote:
"First issue - speaker distance. When running Audyssey,"

What if I bypass the front subs(Rels) for the Audyssey testing and only calibrate them with a Radio Shack meter compared to the front sound level?


Greg
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post #4601 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 05:50 PM
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My point is - the subs you are pairing with your front mains still won't have the "correct" delay (at least - I don't think they will). That's the first measurement Audyssey takes - the "distance" to the speaker, in order to determine the delay needed for each channel. And I doubt that delay is supposed to be the same for your Left-Main and the sub you are also driving with the Left-Main signal. (Ditto for your Right-Main and the Right-Main-slaved sub).

BUT - I have never balanced multiple subs. Someone who has - please chime in.
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post #4602 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 06:46 PM
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Sub distances are, relatively, easy.  Hook them up to the LFE out, 1 at a time, and run Audyssey for one mic position.  Write down the distance.

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post #4603 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 07:10 PM
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But the point is - he only has one sub using a sub-woofer channel.

The other 2 subs are sharing the L/R main inputs. These 2 are the trouble-makers. (He's running 3 subs.)

SO - it doesn't matter if you use Audyssey to measure the correct distance (the correct delay) for the subs. Say you do. Say the left-slaved sub measures at 12.7 feet and the right-slaved sub at 14.3 feet. But the Left front speaker is at 9 feet and the Right front speaker is at 11 feet.

See the problem? You are only allowed ONE distance for front-left and ONE distance for front-right. But he needs two for each. For example, he needs to plug in one distance for the front-left-main speaker and a different distance for the sub that is sharing the front-left signal. Yes - those distances can be measured by playing games and running Audyssey multiple times. But - which distance should he use for the front-left speaker? The distance that makes the front-left-main correctly timed, or the distance that makes the sub-slaved-to-the-front-left correctly timed? I'm betting the times (distances) won't match. That's my point. You can't plug 2 different distances (one for left-main, one for sub-attached-to-left-main) into the single distance value used for front-left-main. Same problem for the right-main and sub-attached-to-the-right-main.

UPDATE/EDIT:

SO - if he uses the front left/right distances measured for the front left/right main speakers - then those main speakers will be correctly delayed (imaged) - but the left/right subs won't. If he uses the distances measured for the left/right subs as the front left/right distances, then the subs will be correctly delayed (imaged) - but the mains won't. Not unless they happen to share the exact same distance. I guess that could be the solution. Keep moving the subs and re-measuring until the left/right subs measure the exact same distances as the left/right mains. Then the measured distances for left/right subs and left/right mains would be identical. That would be a challenge. But theoretically possible.
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post #4604 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

You should remove the glass table! How did you hang those, is this a 9.2

Thanks.wink.gif

Actually the glass table hasn't been an issue thus far. Since the center channel speaker is mounted high on the wall, and at its angle, the sound fires high enough over the table to the listening area. Had the center channel been on a stand below the TV, it would have a major reflection point. The left/right main speakers are also not problematic with the table, as they're really far apart. So the main sound, at the speakers angle, fire past each side of the table. There may be a minor reflection point, but with the MultEQ XT currently have on my Denon AVP, I haven't had any issue calibrating.

The rear center surrounds are on a special bracket that allows them to be angled that way. Yes, it is 9.2. smile.gif
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post #4605 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by gferrell View Post

Do you think you may have enough speakers in that room? What is your listening preference music or movies?

I would love to place some further in as well, to the sides, if the room would allow it. But the left side of the room is open, so there is only the right wall to place another speaker.

As for listening preference, it's 50/50 music and movies.
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post #4606 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

SO - if he uses the left/right distances measured to the left/right main speakers - then those main speakers will be correctly delayed (imaged) - but the subs won't. If he uses the distances measured for the subs as the left/right distances, then the subs will be correctly delayed (imaged) - but the mains won't. Not unless they happen to share the exact same distance. I guess that could be the solution. Keep moving the subs and re-measuring until the left/right subs measure the exact same distances as the left/right mains. Then the measured distances for left/right subs and left/right mains would be identical. That would be a challenge. But theoretically possible.

Mebbe.  He's doing something unusual (for the Marantz) and will have use unusual strategies.  


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post #4607 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 07:36 PM
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Since we're on the subject of sub distance. Has anyone seen Audyssey set the sub distance at twice the main speaker distance? Even though both the mains and the sub physical distance is the same from the listening position. Example, my mains and subs are about 11ft to the primary listening position. However, Audyssey measured the sub at 24ft and the mains at 11ft (as expected). Any theories?

Both my subs are daisy chained as a single mono sub and positioned left and right side of the center channel.

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post #4608 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 07:39 PM
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Standard theory is that the sub has extra electronics inside the sub that slightly delay the signal. That's what is being truly measured - the amount of delay discovered in the signal. So your sub has a delay as if it was 24 feet away... And the Marantz will need to treat it as if it's 24 feet away. DON'T change the number to the "correct" (real-world-measured) distance. Because to Audyssey it's not really a distance - it's a delay-value (after being divided by some conversion factor - such as - the speed of sound...).
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post #4609 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 08:15 PM
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I have had different Audyssey mics give me different sub distances and I doubt it was from the delay or advance in processing. Granted I have the 80.3 and not the 8801, at least yet.

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post #4610 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ohyeah32 View PostThanks.wink.gif

Actually the glass table hasn't been an issue thus far. Since the center channel speaker is mounted high on the wall, and at its angle, the sound fires high enough over the table to the listening area. Had the center channel been on a stand below the TV, it would have a major reflection point. The left/right main speakers are also not problematic with the table, as they're really far apart. So the main sound, at the speakers angle, fire past each side of the table. There may be a minor reflection point, but with the MultEQ XT currently have on my Denon AVP, I haven't had any issue calibrating.

The rear center surrounds are on a special bracket that allows them to be angled that way. Yes, it is 9.2. smile.gif

You are welcome, love the set up, your significant other is very understanding biggrin.gif

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post #4611 of 12011 Old 04-01-2013, 10:25 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

How does a voltage tester check if one wire is better shielded over another? So electricity travels miles before it ever reaches our houses then goes through basically cheap and inexpensive wiring all of our houses are wired with, and then a cord worth half the price of my amp is going to make an audible difference?

Being in the construction business I can tell you that the wire used today is made as cheap as possible. It is made to be more flexible and easier to pull by the electrician, not better for the home owner. That goes for all wiring, so what you really need is one of those fancy cords to reach the pole outside your house, and maybe to the power company. I'm not being argumentative I'm just stating what I know to be true smile.gif

The voltage tester suggestion was for determining whether a cable is shielded (AC not detected along the cable if it is shielded). It will not determine the quality of shielding. Shielded power cords should not imply power cords that are half the price of an amp. Another poster noted he was paying about $10 each for shielded power cords. Whether they will make a difference will depend on the equipment being used and the environment.

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post #4612 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 05:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankee14 View Post

Your Quote:
"First issue - speaker distance. When running Audyssey,"

What if I bypass the front subs(Rels) for the Audyssey testing and only calibrate them with a Radio Shack meter compared to the front sound level?


Greg


Yankee

What brand and model number are the subs that you want to run with the L/Rs ?

If the subs have their own crossovers and are self powered, you've got a pretty easy installation.

While we're at it, how low do your main speakers go in terms of frequency response?

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post #4613 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill222 View Post

Standard theory is that the sub has extra electronics inside the sub that slightly delay the signal. That's what is being truly measured - the amount of delay discovered in the signal. So your sub has a delay as if it was 24 feet away... And the Marantz will need to treat it as if it's 24 feet away. DON'T change the number to the "correct" (real-world-measured) distance. Because to Audyssey it's not really a distance - it's a delay-value (after being divided by some conversion factor - such as - the speed of sound...).

No, not quite. Think about what you said:
Quote:
Standard theory is that the sub has extra electronics inside the sub that slightly delay the signal

Standard Theory??? Are you quoting that paper again? Did I not explain how that one thing mentioned above is why that entire paper is flawed? That guy wrote all that "delay" stuff assuming the "Extra electronics in the sub" aka THE AMP is what causes it. Total bs, since you have an amp in line with your speakers as well, it is moot point. He forgot to consider that part. Even if there was additional delay in the sub chain, it is not going to change the distance measurement on your sub and double the distance it is measuring. It just isn't gonna happen.

My opinion: DO change the distance setting and see if the subs blend better with your mains, if not, then change it back. Are your subs ported or sealed? Sometimes "Horn" style subs with long path lengths will measure as yours do, due to the interior length of the horn, but most people don't have those so I won't get into that.

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post #4614 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 07:40 AM
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It's probably the low pass filter, phase control and whatever other (unknown to me) analog signal modification circuitry in the sub is in series with the signal which cause the delay. It really doesn't matter exactly what causes the delay, though. The audio timing has to be adjusted for each of the speakers so that an "impulse" which is transmitted simultaneously through all of the speaker channels is heard simultaneously and with the correct phase at the primary listening position. If the sound comes out of the subwoofer so much later, then the sounds coming out of the other speakers have to be delayed by that same amount.

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post #4615 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 08:19 AM
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Interested in the 8801. Any ongoing issues with this unit I should know about?
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post #4616 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

Interested in the 8801. Any ongoing issues with this unit I should know about?

I think there some issues with upgrading but most had no problem.
The vast majority are very happy with the sound quality configured one way or another.

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post #4617 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 08:32 AM
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I think there some issues with upgrading but most had no problem.
The vast majority are very happy with the sound quality configured one way or another.

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upgrading the firmware?
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post #4618 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by nezff View Post

upgrading the firmware?

Yes, I think the firmware upgrade problems were internet based.
EXM provided download instructions as another option:
Quote:
If you own a North American AV8801 and are having difficulty installing a firmware update via the network servers, refer to post #4297 for information on installing the update via a USB stick.

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post #4619 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 09:22 AM
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Im kinda stumped if the Marantz is $400 better than the 4520
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post #4620 of 12011 Old 04-02-2013, 10:09 AM
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Well after 3 or 4 days of reading thru this entire thread and being on the fence between AV8801, PR-SC5509 or a used AVP-A1HDCI, I decided to drop all my eggs (Happy belated easter everyone:p) in on the AV8801 to replace my Onkyo PR-SC885P. While I'm awaiting it's arrival, I could use some input on rear surround speaker placement. looking to move up from 5.1 to 7.1. Problem is, my sofa is positioned up against the back wall with my current 2 surrounds to the far left and right facing each other. Can I still place 2 rear speakers on the back wall above my sofa facing forward even tho they're not really fully behind me? Looking forward to taking possession of my AV8801:)

Glenn
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Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

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Ken Kreisel Dxd 12012 Subwoofer , Marantz Av8801 , Receivers Amplifiers , Audyssey , Integra
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