Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 223 - AVS Forum
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post #6661 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 02:43 PM
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Here is a more extensive quote, section header and several paragraphs from David Rich's article, which is primarily a review of the Anthem Room Correction (ARC) system, with some comparison to Audyssey MultEQ XT32. Note that the article is not specifically intended as a review of the Marantz AV8801 prepro, rather the Marantz was chosen for the comparison tests because it is a recent unit with MultEQ XT32.
Quote:
Notes on High Resolution Signal Processing:

The Anthem D2 and AVM Pre/Pro products that have ARC will process an incoming signal at its native rate up to 96k samples/second. Robert Kozel verified this by using a 30kHz test signal sampled at 96k samples/sec on an Anthem D2. He did the same test with the new Marantz AV8801 Pre/Pro that has Audyssey MultEQ XT32 room correction. The AV8801 did not pass the 30kHz signal because it down-sampled the high resolution test tone to the standard resolution of 48k samples/sec. The Marantz AV8801 is $3,600 before the costs of having the unit upgraded by a Marantz certified Pro Installer using the Audyssey PC based tools and calibrated microphone. Sampling at 96k sample/sec requires twice the DSP resources for the real time filters used for room correction.

Here are graphs (all graphs shown below were produced by Robert Kozel) to illustrate that the Marantz Audyssey processing does not pass 30 kHz, which it otherwise would if digital down-sampling to 48 kHz were not occurring. The signals were 24/96, which is the maximum sampling rate that the Audyssey will accept.

First, an 18 kHz and 30 kHz set of test tones with Audyssey turned off. Note that both test tones are seen in the output.

Now, a graph with the same set of test tones, but with Audyssey turned on. Note that the 30 kHz signal is no longer there. That is because the signal has been downsampled to 48 kHz, and the maximum analog frequency that can be passed through to the output is 1/2 of that, which is 24 kHz.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/audio-calibration/audio-calibration-reviews/anthem-room-correction-arc-system-part-1/page-9-room-gain.html

So the main "point" of David Rich's comments about Audyssey XT32 on the Marantz AV8801 seems to be that a "high resolution" 96 kHz / 24-bit test signal is passed unaltered when Audyssey is off, but the same test signal is down-sampled to 48 kHz / 24-bit when Audyssey is turned on.

And I read the sentence "Sampling at 96k sample/sec requires twice the DSP resources for the real time filters used for room correction" as a proposed explanation for why the Marantz down-samples to 24 bit / 48 kHz when Audyssey is turned on. In other words, Marantz designed the AV8801 that way because more DSP resources (higher parts cost) would have been required to accept 24 bit / 96 kHz signals and also do the Audyssey processing of these signals without down-sampling.

(edited shortly after posting to clarify what the Secrets article is saying, in my understanding)
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post #6662 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 02:53 PM
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^^ Don't fool yourself the Marantz AV7005 made a lot of waves in the AV world. So with the dozens of AVR's and pre/pro's with Audyssey they just had an 8801 handy? I'm not saying this happened but if people think this kind of thing doesn't happen in AV land they are mistaken. In these companies minds it is ALL about the almighty buck. Think about it the 7005 bests a lot of gear worth twice as much and now the 8801 threatens the big boys. Coincidental? Maybe.
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post #6663 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

^^ Think about it the 7005 bests a lot of gear worth twice as much and now the 8801 threatens the big boys. Coincidental? Maybe.

"There are no coincidences." -Anonymous.

Where is the 8801's wifi connection?
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post #6664 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 03:24 PM
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^

I believe that David Rich chose a Marantz AV8801 as the "Audyssey comparison unit" for his article on the Anthem Room Correction system because he wanted to test the most advanced version of Audyssey room correction, which is MultEQ XT32, not MultEQ XT or plain MultEQ. Further, he may have preferred to test an Audyssey prepro, not a receiver (for comparison to the Anthem prepros which are the main focus of the article).
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post #6665 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 03:28 PM
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"There are no coincidences." -Anonymous.

Where is the 8801's wifi connection?


No wifi it's Ethernet. Wifi is littered with dropped connectivity and that's probably why it wasn't used, IMO. Just ask me about my wifi printer, I'll keep it's brand name anonymous smile.gif
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post #6666 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic icons View Post

^

I believe that David Rich chose a Marantz AV8801 as the "Audyssey comparison unit" for his article on the Anthem Room Correction system because he wanted to test the most advanced version of Audyssey room correction, which is MultEQ XT32, not MultEQ XT or plain MultEQ. Further, he may have preferred to test an Audyssey prepro, not a receiver (for comparison to the Anthem prepros which are the main focus of the article).



It is entirely possible this is the case. Or maybe he didn't choose it at all, maybe Anthem did. I'll make you one guarantee, Marantz has cut into the bottom line of more than one of the big boys wink.gif I'll back off the conspiracy theory now lol.
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post #6667 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 03:53 PM
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"There are no coincidences." -Anonymous.

I could understand why they would want to stay anonymous because you would have to be an idiot to truly believe it. tongue.gif
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post #6668 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 03:58 PM
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post #6669 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 04:01 PM
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So what exactly does the down sampling do?????

are we talking audio or video or both?

are we talking that if one is playing a blu ray does the marantz down sample the signal even though it should just "pass through"?

are we only talking if the marantz is converting a dvd type signal it down samples it?

i am confused...

Bill
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post #6670 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 04:05 PM
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Audio only. 96khz 48khz. There is quite a controversy about whether one can hear the difference between the two. The recording and mastering process seem to be much more important . AIX produces some very good . Hi res sound Blu Rays . they have several samplers if you are interested.
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post #6671 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

Audio only. 96khz 48khz. There is quite a controversy about whether one can hear the difference between the two. The recording and mastering process seem to be much more important . AIX produces some very good . Hi res sound Blu Rays . they have several samplers if you are interested.



I agree that the recording and mastering are more important. But I do have some SACD's and DVD-A's that sound amazing on the 8801, in fact better than any red book CD I have, so I'm not quite sure what to make of that article. I'm guilty of making too much out of this when it's not clear if this is normal when Audyssey is engaged. I suspect this is a normal for Audyssey and that their room correction benefits far out weigh high res. I have a hard time believing that Audyssey has been out for years and no one knew this eek.gif It would be interesting to see if one of the other "big boys" let high res pass through their room correction. Wouldn't that be a story if they didn't but don't expect those graphs posted any time soon wink.gif Plus the 8801 has been well reviewed so who really cares smile.gif
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post #6672 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 05:20 PM
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I find 24-bit seems to be more an improving factor over the sampling rate
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post #6673 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I agree that the recording and mastering are more important. But I do have some SACD's and DVD-A's that sound amazing on the 8801, in fact better than any red book CD's I have, so I'm not quite sure what to make of that article.

It goes both way, I have SACDs that sound better than some of my CDs but also have CDs that sound much better than some of my SACDs.
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post #6674 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 06:55 PM
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It goes both way, I have SACDs that sound better than some of my CDs but also have CDs that sound much better than some of my SACDs.



I agree smile.gif IYO what is your best sounding disc?
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post #6675 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 07:08 PM
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With respect to the downsampling, is it the case that L/R bypass will maintain the original resolution?

I also want to be sure that this downsampling only occurs when Audyssey is enabled. So, for example, is the resolution maintained when bass management is utilized?

Also, has it been determined that downsampling is performed on all Marantz prepros released in the past few years which use Audyssey. How about Denon? I'd assume so. I'm not sure which others use Audyssey.

Forgive me for covering this ground once again, but I'm coming in late and appreciate the time and advice.

Most of this is not known.  Someone would have to make an investigation to determine the answers.  


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post #6676 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 08:01 PM
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Apologies in advance if this has already been mentioned but I am logged in from a computer at work and am unable to use the search feature for this thread for some reason.

I skimmed through the PDF manual for the 8801 and I think I found the answer to one of my two questions but I would like confirmation on both.

1) Can the AV8801 output two independent HDMI sources simultaneously?

2) Can a different audio source be assigned to an HDMI video source? I mean can I listen to internet radio or a CD audio while watching video from HDMI? From what I've read in the manual, I am geussing the answer is a definitive NO.

Thanks in advance
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post #6677 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 08:46 PM
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It goes both way, I have SACDs that sound better than some of my CDs but also have CDs that sound much better than some of my SACDs.

Mastering quality is the primary factor (post-recording) and not the resolution. Ideally, the best mastering work for a given music album would be available in hi-res PCM and DSD (both trapped on an SACD and as a file for streaming). Of course, we don't live in that world. There are those who seek out the best digital mastering and I count myself among them. I believe that Kal prefers surround sound mixes for music, but I'll take a great stereo (or mono) mastering any day for playback on my reference system.

In any event, that's way off-topic. Check out the Analogue Productions CCR catalog SACDs for an example of great DSD. Then pick up Audio Fidelity Bob Dylan Greatest Hits Vol. 1 "gold" redbook CD. You will enjoy both. It's the mastering.

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post #6678 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

It is entirely possible this is the case. Or maybe he didn't choose it at all, maybe Anthem did. I'll make you one guarantee, Marantz has cut into the bottom line of more than one of the big boys wink.gif I'll back off the conspiracy theory now lol.

You enjoy the AV8801, but why is it necessary to "prove" that the AV8801 is the best pre-pro in any price range of all-time. Or perhaps "prove" that spending any more will only result in incremental improvements that are nearly inaudible?

Marantz does not design gear intended to be used by the most discerning, budget-free enthusiasts. There are too many compromises at this price point. Start removing the compromises and the price will go up and then we won't be able to afford it. Power supplies and analog output stages, at their best, are not cheap. This is very likely where the Cary Cinema 12, Classe, Bryston, etc will win in overall sound quality.
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post #6679 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

You enjoy the AV8801, but why is it necessary to "prove" that the AV8801 is the best pre-pro in any price range of all-time. Or perhaps "prove" that spending any more will only result in incremental improvements that are nearly inaudible?

Marantz does not design gear intended to be used by the most discerning, budget-free enthusiasts. There are too many compromises at this price point. Start removing the compromises and the price will go up and then we won't be able to afford it. Power supplies and analog output stages, at their best, are not cheap. This is very likely where the Cary Cinema 12, Classe, Bryston, etc will win in overall sound quality.



That's not my intention, I'm trying to find out if the reason high res isn't being passed is because of Audyssey or the 8801. If you've followed any of my posts (in the last 6 + months on this thread) you would have already known that I've conceded there's better jh. But I will "stick up" for my 8801 when the occasional nay sayer appears on this thread or give my highest recommendation when someone asks for an opinion or advice when I have the answer. If your looking to pick on someone for their posting style or you just couldn't resist the temptation to share your Marantz philosophy with me, I'm really not interested.
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post #6680 of 11872 Old 07-08-2013, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

You enjoy the AV8801, but why is it necessary to "prove" that the AV8801 is the best pre-pro in any price range of all-time. Or perhaps "prove" that spending any more will only result in incremental improvements that are nearly inaudible?

Marantz does not design gear intended to be used by the most discerning, budget-free enthusiasts. There are too many compromises at this price point. Start removing the compromises and the price will go up and then we won't be able to afford it. Power supplies and analog output stages, at their best, are not cheap. This is very likely where the Cary Cinema 12, Classe, Bryston, etc will win in overall sound quality.

In my opinion, our listening room geometry, speakers, equipment synergy and our musical response preference have far more impact on music reproduction than processors.

I've heard bad and good demos with Anthem, Classe and Anthem processors based the rest of the equipment synergy.

In my situation, 2-channel music AV8801 7.1 analog inputs sounds much better as compared to it's own digital inputs. I'm able to hear differences between various DAC's where I wasn't able to hear DAC's differences via D2V so called analog input.
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post #6681 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 12:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

You enjoy the AV8801, but why is it necessary to "prove" that the AV8801 is the best pre-pro in any price range of all-time. Or perhaps "prove" that spending any more will only result in incremental improvements that are nearly inaudible?

Marantz does not design gear intended to be used by the most discerning, budget-free enthusiasts. There are too many compromises at this price point. Start removing the compromises and the price will go up and then we won't be able to afford it. Power supplies and analog output stages, at their best, are not cheap. This is very likely where the Cary Cinema 12, Classe, Bryston, etc will win in overall sound quality.

How sure are you about that in terms of SQ, non of the above will accept a native DSD signal! which alone is a no go at there price point and they are only 7.1 or 7.2 at best rolleyes.gif
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post #6682 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 04:00 AM
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This is very likely where the Cary Cinema 12, Classe, Bryston, etc will win in overall sound quality.

I agree it is very likely...but that I have the feeling that it would become very unlikely if those were priced lower than the 8801, or in a blind test, even just a simple single blind test.
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post #6683 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 04:15 AM
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I agree it is very likely...but that I have the feeling that it would become very unlikely if those were priced lower than the 8801, or in a blind test, even just a simple single blind test.

Right. And in a blind test a 2013 Porsche 911 will drive like a Camry. Ok, ok. I know. We can easily measure the difference in that case. Look, if it makes Marantz owners feel better with the comfort of believing that hi-end engineers, who invest more time and money into various aspects of the component, are making fools out of their customers then so be it. Clearly, it's not enough to be satisfied with a purchase unless all other purchasing decisions, well the more expensive options that is, are "proven" to be a waste.

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post #6684 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 04:52 AM
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That's depends if the Camry is 11.2 or only 7.1 like the Porsche biggrin.gif
Read the thread some of us had pre/pro's worth twice as much plus and prefer the 8801, myself not included but my old pre was 3 grand 8 years ago so it wasn't a toy. Somehow you'll have to deal with this, I'm not sure how maybe go purchase a mega buck pre that's 7.1 or 7.2 and tell yourself it sounds as good as some that have wides and heights in a huge room running the 8801. These are tongue in cheek comments and I never claimed the 8801 was the best pre just a darn good one. Now back to more important things.
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post #6685 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jh901 View Post

Right. And in a blind test a 2013 Porsche 911 will drive like a Camry. Ok, ok. I know. We can easily measure the difference in that case. Look, if it makes Marantz owners feel better with the comfort of believing that hi-end engineers, who invest more time and money into various aspects of the component, are making fools out of their customers then so be it. Clearly, it's not enough to be satisfied with a purchase unless all other purchasing decisions, well the more expensive options that is, are "proven" to be a waste.

You're making a very large assumption that we're all delusional.

Most if not all of us understand and expect a prepro costing twice as much is going to sound better. Who in their right mind wouldn't expect that?

What the 8801 brings to the table is a very good sound without any operational issues at a price point that we are willing to spend.
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post #6686 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 06:09 AM
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That's not my intention, I'm trying to find out if the reason high res isn't being passed is because of Audyssey or the 8801. 

8801.  It is simply a matter of the processor having enough DSP to handle higher bitrates.


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post #6687 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 06:14 AM
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8801.  It is simply a matter of the processor having enough DSP to handle higher bitrates.



Gotcha Kal. So there are some pre's or AVR's using XT32 that can process the higher bitrates?
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post #6688 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 06:25 AM
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You're making a very large assumption that we're all delusional.

Most if not all of us understand and expect a prepro costing twice as much is going to sound better. Who in their right mind wouldn't expect that?

What the 8801 brings to the table is a very good sound without any operational issues at a price point that we are willing to spend.



Exactly Jim smile.gif I was under no illusion when I traded my old pre in that I had just purchased a product that was an end all game over pre. What I did get was a surprising versatile and great sounding piece of gear. I do not have the best of the best as far as all my gear goes but it isn't bad either smile.gif
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post #6689 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 06:34 AM
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There are some idiosyncracies in the 8801. Namely, changes to the sound when changing from even Pure Direct to Direct. Nevermind engaging signal processing.

I have not heard LPCM over HDMI that compares to the analog ins connected to the BDP-105.
Many Anthem users say that the D2V does, but I have never considered this product because it is so damned ugly. All thos silver buttons, what for? Zero WAF smile.gif

I would love Classe performance in a 3K product. From Secrets of Home Theater:
Quote:
Classé gave me the following, more specific, details about the circuit design: "The DAC is a current output DAC, so there is an I/V converter followed by a reconstruction filter (TI OPA2134), then the volume control, then a buffer stage (National LM4562) followed by a gain stage (also LM 4562). The signal is differential thru the output and biased in Class A. The single-ended output just uses the non-inverting side of the LM4562. There are two DSPs and both are the TI TMS320DA710."

About 5 years ago, I modded an Azentech sound card with LM4562 OpAms and bigger Caps. It sounded fantastic. So, I am not sure this is really about cost since Marantz and many large Electonic manufacturers use Toroidal power supples and other top quality parts. DACs and ICs are relatively cheap. I really think processors have focues on feature count so they can get logos on the box.

It bugs me that changing the video settings changes the sound of the 8801. This is a needless design issue. The BDP-105 is equal parts a video and audio product and altering the video processing never affects the sound. The other problem is the heat.

The 8801 is a very good processor that I feel is better than my old Onkyo 5507.
However, if a processor comes out that, runs cooler, handles HDMI LPCM better, and has impecable analog audio handling, then I'll certainly take a look.

The more Processors that enter the market the better they will all get.

- Rich

Oppo Beta Group

Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A51 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
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post #6690 of 11872 Old 07-09-2013, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JimP View Post


Most if not all of us understand and expect a prepro costing twice as much is going to sound better. Who in their right mind wouldn't expect that?

What the 8801 brings to the table is a very good sound without any operational issues at a price point that we are willing to spend.

I'm with you on both points. Appreciated.

I only have a lowly AV7005, but you won't find me running around posting that 8801 owners are wasting money and that they can't "scientifically" justify their purchase.

Off-topic, but if Kal doesn't mind I'd be curious to know a few examples where a multi-channel mix of a 60s-70s rock album bests the stereo (or mono). I bring this up because I thought I recalled reading that he often doesn't find stereo engaging.

HT 3.1: Panny BDT 220 | 60" Panny VT60 | Marantz AV7005 | Focal CMS50 (L/R), CMS40 & CMS Sub

Stereo system: Cary Audio 306 SACD Pro | Cary Audio SLP-05 tube line level | Cary Audio SA-200.2 | Focal Diablo Utopia III
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