Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 238 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #7111 of 12219 Old 07-25-2013, 08:15 PM
Senior Member
 
jam88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Montreal
Posts: 413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewa View Post

Reading this about AL32

http://www.denon.com/pages/GlossaryDetail.aspx?GId=13

Seems like your getting bits and hz mixed up, it looks to be working on bit depth algorithm rather than up sampling?

What do you think?

Unfortunately, we're all working here with the limited technical information we can scrape from various online sources. Companies don't always clearly divulge all the information on how their technologies exactly work. Most companies like to impress their customers and potential customers with all kinds of marketing jargon associated to a technology that most of the time is not exclusive to their products but that they would like to differentiate from their competitors. Bit depth expansion, e.g. from 16 bits to 24 bits, and upsampling or an increase of sample rates by inserting additional samples derived mathematically between two existing samples, a process also often referred to as interpolation, e.g. an increase from 44.1 kHz/sec to 96 kHz/sec or even to 192 kHz/sec, is one such example in the digital audio industry. Other companies employ similar upsampling technologies like Anthem or Cambridge Audio that uses Anagram Technologies' Q5 upsampling and some producers implement it within their DACs.

Keeping in mind the above paragraph, Denon's AL32 Processing webpage, describes three functions associated with the operation of their AL32 technology.

The first, "Function 1. High-bit up-conversion (Adaptive Line Pattern Harmonized Algorithm)", is their bit depth expansion that increases the depth from 16 to 32 bits.

The second, "Function 2. Advanced ALPHA Processing", sounds to me like their take on upsampling. They describe it in these terms:
"The 44.1-kHz sampling signals of a CD are oversampled by a factor of 16 to produce a smoother waveform. At this time, simply performing linear interpolation and increasing the data will not produce a signal waveform that exists in the natural world.
A waveform close to that of the original signal is achieved by inferring data interpolated from a large volume of data that should be reproduced before and after the data read from the CD.
By analyzing large volumes of sampling before and after data read from the CD and inferring and interpolating the points that should exist, it is possible to produce a smooth signal that is closer to the original sound."

The last technique, "Function 3. Adaptive digital filter (Automatic Low-Pass filter Harmonic Adjustment)", is a digital filtering scheme to attenuate the occurrence of ringing.

Another PDF brochure for the Denon AVP-A1HDCI A-V Processor, the DVD-A1UDCI Player and the POA-A1HDCI Power Amplifier that explains and showcases some key Denon technologies, including AL32, and that I referenced in a post I wrote back in January, describes AL32 on page 7 in the following manner:

"Advanced AL32 Processing Multi Channel, to further improve proprietary
technology that optimizes HD audio performance, used for the first time in
the DVD-A1UDCI

In 1993, Denon unveiled “AL” Processing, a technology that expanded 16-bit digital
signals recorded on CD to 20 bits to produce a waveform that was close to that of
the original sound. This marked the beginning of “AL” Processing’s history of original
waveform reproduction technology.
“AL” Processing evolved further with the advent of various new digital disc media
such as DVD and Super Audio CD. This evolution progressed from AL24 Processing and
AL24 PLUS Processing to Advanced AL24 Processing that achieved sampling frequency
expansion, where data is interpolated along the time axis
in addition to bit expansion.
Now with the appearance of Blu-ray, Denon has developed Advanced AL32
Processing that further expands the number of bits from 24 to 32 to maximize the
exceptional audio performance of Blu-ray. With distortion-free sonic details, accurate
sound localization, and rich low range, Advanced AL32 Processing is able to reproduce
the original sound with greater fidelity."

Also look at the "Figure 1. Denon Advanced AL32 Processing" from my January post (taken from the PDF brochure above), we can see in that diagram that the top box represents the "AL32 Bit Expansion" and it's followed by an "Upsampling" box. Although they don't specifically mention the sample rate increase in either of the two sources I've provided above, since they use 192kHz/32-bit DACs in the products discussed, it would make sense for the final sample rate to naturally be 192 kHz in order to match the DAC's capability.

So with the available information, this is the best explanation I can deduce although it may not be completely accurate.
jam88 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #7112 of 12219 Old 07-25-2013, 10:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I'd it's inaudible and doesn't seem to affect the quality of playback than what is the point of high resolutionusic to begin with. Obviously anything over 48/24 is inaudible right? Saying it sounds great to your ear is one thing (and honestly in my opinion the most important thing at the end of the day) but don't play off an obvious limitation of design simply because it seems to sound good to you. The only way to know if it truly sounds good enough is to have a direct comparison with a processor with Audyssey that isn't limited. Unfortunately that seems to be a no show at the moment. I loved my last Integra 80.3 and it features a truly differential design in 5.1 but comparing directly to my Anthem resulted in an obvious loss of resolution and fidelity with music. If I hadn't done the comparison with the Anthem I probably would have been fine with the Integra, but once you hear what you're missing it is hard to ignore.

Wow eek.gif I guess none of use have had the privilege of hearing anything better, I'm new to Auydyssey and prior too considered myself a bit of mostly 2/ch purist that so happened to love movies as well. Largely my listening habits were indeed stereo for redbook , sacd and hi res files, and the only time I would even think of converting a DSD signal to PCM was to hear the multi/ch track and even then knowing the signal was converted it would indeed nagging thought in the back of my head, ahh! but I never had this to worry about in 2/ch as my mains and room were tailored to extract the best from 2/ch DSD ( I'm one who can tell the difference between DSD&PCM). I've had good gear that had filters and allowed playback of different sampling rates and up sampled them as well.

Now here's the rub, and its a word of to little use these days in modern Audio/videphile world and that's "Fidelity" and here were I lay my personal bias aside for 2/ch for it being the best way to obtain it. And here we have the Marantz 8801 with Audyssey and for what it has bought to the table in the time domain alone has in no way even hinted a loss of Fidelity and didn't just preserve it, but shall we say I got yet another step closer in this pseudo pursuit of ours. So for me it comes down to Fidelity and I could care less about anything else and besides have you heard the multi/ch track of Ivan fisher's Mahler's 1st or 2nd on Channel Classics sacd, or watched the Great and Powerful Oz , In my setup not anyone else's , it been some of the best reproduction of music and movies I've heard wink.gif
audiofan1 is online now  
post #7113 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 12:15 AM
Senior Member
 
matthewa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 344
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

"So what" ? "Arbitrary" ?

The fact that Marantz/Denon downres's and Anthem doesn't, obviously matters to some people.

As Kris mentions to his ears he finds the Anthem better than the Integra, IMO there's more too it then just comparing which room correction samples to what rate, there's a lot more to each RC calculations / algorithms that result in different sound along with the rest of the SSP equipment eg: DAC, power supply, etc

It's just not an apple to apple comparison, it may tick a box in comparing statistics over each other, just as does price, no channels, HDMI specs, etc and may take a different weighting over the others

However I think many of us are mixing interpretations and significance of the difference between music / movies being mastered at a hi res, vs DAC interpreting hi res vs RC correction vs output from speaker

I'm sure there will he a higher res Audyssey one day, but most likely will change several other variables so again will not be a direct comparison to our 8801

I don't disagree with comfy it would be great if they re-assigned MIPS in less channel config a to a hi res RC, but I'm not going to loose sleep either, as Dave said this is one great SSP and until something better comes along that ticks the boxes, sit back and enjoy
matthewa is offline  
post #7114 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 12:50 AM
AVS Special Member
 
comfynumb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Northeast PA.
Posts: 4,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Having already heard from Audyssey over a week ago I already knew what the story was with high res on the 8801. I just misunderstand what Marantz's answer was to my unclear question. I'm not unhappy at all with 8801, in fact I wouldn't give it up period. I just wanted to fully understand it's capabilities. My apologies, I didn't mean to stir things up.
comfynumb is offline  
post #7115 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 02:37 AM
Advanced Member
 
Cal68's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maryland
Posts: 561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 55
Has anyone hooked up the AV 8801 to an Integra DTA-70.1 amp? How does the combination sound? I am currently using an Integra DTC-80.2 pre-pro in my system but I am looking to move theIntegra to another room. However, I would like to continue using my Integra DTA-70.1 amp in my main home theater. In the glowing review published in Home Theater magazine, the AV 8801 was hooked up to a Marantz MM8077 amp but I would prefer not to spend $2399 to purchase another amp if my Integra 70.1 amp mates well with the AV 8801.

I tried searching this thread to see if my question had already been asked and answered before, but I could not get the search engine to work. So I apologize if the question has already been answered.

Thanks for your help.

Cal68

Cal68
Cal68 is offline  
post #7116 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 03:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewa View Post

As Kris mentions to his ears he finds the Anthem better than the Integra, IMO there's more too it then just comparing which room correction samples to what rate, there's a lot more to each RC calculations / algorithms that result in different sound along with the rest of the SSP equipment eg: DAC, power supply, etc

It's just not an apple to apple comparison, it may tick a box in comparing statistics over each other, just as does price, no channels, HDMI specs, etc and may take a different weighting over the others

However I think many of us are mixing interpretations and significance of the difference between music / movies being mastered at a hi res, vs DAC interpreting hi res vs RC correction vs output from speaker

I'm sure there will he a higher res Audyssey one day, but most likely will change several other variables so again will not be a direct comparison to our 8801

I don't disagree with comfy it would be great if they re-assigned MIPS in less channel config a to a hi res RC, but I'm not going to loose sleep either, as Dave said this is one great SSP and until something better comes along that ticks the boxes, sit back and enjoy

Agreed, i think bringing in Anthem doesn't downsample is also a little weird since they don't run the audyssey routines are they ?, Theirs might be much easer on the mips. What i read between the lines from audyssey is that their routines can run at any depth and speed and its up to the market to decide what is needed. I made (i think correctly) the call that its MIPS based limitation most audysssey devices do the same since i don't know any that have more MIPS than the ones in the AVP/4520/8801. Maybe they could reuse some of the mips smarter in 2 channel mode but we have not seen hints that someone is doing that.

As a nerd i do think its interesting to know these things even if i think my AVP/3d and the 8801 sound fine, the quest for understanding has its own rewards.

Daniel.

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
post #7117 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 05:04 AM
AVS Club Gold
 
joerod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: MIDWEST (just outside Chicago)
Posts: 22,109
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 80 Post(s)
Liked: 113
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Any one can recommend a good blu ray library management for iPad 

CLZ... Finishing my Review today. smile.gif

http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homestead.com/CLZ-MOVIE-COLLECTION-REVIEW.html?_=1374882135904

For my latest Reviews and Stuff google -> Joe Rod Home Theater .Com
Check out my Dolby Atmos/Surround first take:
http://hstrial-jrodriguez996.homeste...=1409517748063
joerod is online now  
post #7118 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 06:32 AM
AVS Special Member
 
comfynumb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Northeast PA.
Posts: 4,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by WLGeter View Post

I'm on post #7045 but my AV8801 will be here in a few days. So much to read and so little time. Have been like a kid waiting for shipping verification smile.gif



Christmas in July biggrin.gif congrats and let us know what you think of the 8801.
comfynumb is offline  
post #7119 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 06:47 AM
Senior Member
 
discodol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Wilton Manors, FL, USA
Posts: 437
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal68 View Post

Has anyone hooked up the AV 8801 to an Integra DTA-70.1 amp? How does the combination sound? I am currently using an Integra DTC-80.2 pre-pro in my system but I am looking to move theIntegra to another room. However, I would like to continue using my Integra DTA-70.1 amp in my main home theater. In the glowing review published in Home Theater magazine, the AV 8801 was hooked up to a Marantz MM8077 amp but I would prefer not to spend $2399 to purchase another amp if my Integra 70.1 amp mates well with the AV 8801.

I use the DTA-70.1 to power my front high, front wides, side surrounds, and rear surrounds and they all sound awesome.

I use Parasound for the front left, right, and center channels.

The combination matches seamlessly for 11 channels of sound that I enjoy watching movies, music videos, and cable tv.

The Parasounds cannot be beat for stereo listening.

I had tried two other brands for the surrounds before settling on the Integra which I am totally pleased with.

I don't think you can go wrong with the Integra for all your channels including the fronts and center!!

David Ferebee
discodol is offline  
post #7120 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 07:31 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,468
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 81 Post(s)
Liked: 138
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

I'd it's inaudible and doesn't seem to affect the quality of playback than what is the point of high resolutionusic to begin with. Obviously anything over 48/24 is inaudible right? 

There are more variables in our imperfect systems than the digital resolution.


Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #7121 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 09:43 AM
AVS Special Member
 
jmschnur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: VA MD DC area
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Yes indeed. There are several important factors:

The room
The speakers
The digital to analog signal process that gives the speakers their signals.
The inputs e.g. Vinyl CDS etc.

Ii is fascinating to learn about what Marantz/Denon have done to process the inputs to their devices receive to send an analogue signal to the amps.

Al32 sounds quite interesting . Learning how/if Marantz uses it and why might be very useful to our understanding of some of the ways one can decrease some of the imperfections.
jmschnur is offline  
post #7122 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 10:55 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Kris Deering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Pacific Northwet
Posts: 7,169
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 279 Post(s)
Liked: 378
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

There are more variables in our imperfect systems than the digital resolution.

I completely agree Kal, I was generalizing and also being a bit sarcastic. I am a fan of high resolution audio when it is done right and is actually high resolution audio. My comment would be just as sarcastic with video and saying that since our playback medium is only 1080p, anything above that would be lost. Clearly not the case as the better the source before playback, the better the playback results.

Senior Video Editor
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity

Click Here To See My Current Setup
Kris Deering is offline  
post #7123 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 11:14 AM
AVS Special Member
 
RichB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 8,801
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 272 Post(s)
Liked: 251
I am also a fan of high res audio.
However, converting on the fly is yet another opportunity for reduced resolution.

When I compare the BDP-105 directly commected to the A51 to the AV8801 using the analog inputs, there is some loss.
Not much, but on some harsh recording like Adele 19, removing the AV8801 from the chain is an improvement.

I tried to measure the difference between the analog ins and the HDMI inputs using the Omni-MIc V2 and the analog ins were about 1 DB louder from the analog inputs. Otherwise, they tracked pretty well. However, I find the soundstage is different.

So far, I like processed sound about as much as I like processed cheese, smile.gif

- Rich

Oppo Beta Group

Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A51 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
RichB is offline  
post #7124 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 12:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
comfynumb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Northeast PA.
Posts: 4,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I am also a fan of high res audio.
However, converting on the fly is yet another opportunity for reduced resolution.

When I compare the BDP-105 directly commected to the A51 to the AV8801 using the analog inputs, there is some loss.
Not much, but on some harsh recording like Adele 19, removing the AV8801 from the chain is an improvement.

I tried to measure the difference between the analog ins and the HDMI inputs using the Omni-MIc V2 and the analog ins were about 1 DB louder from the analog inputs. Otherwise, they tracked pretty well. However, I find the soundstage is different.

So far, I like processed sound about as much as I like processed cheese, smile.gif

- Rich



But isn't every piece of gear processing sound? Maybe you just like your Oppo processing better smile.gif
comfynumb is offline  
post #7125 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 12:09 PM
AVS Special Member
 
jmschnur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: VA MD DC area
Posts: 2,940
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
With the 8801 one can by pass Audyssey for the fronts (or all) if you wish. So for hi Rez pieces one can listen to hi Rez without Audyssey or 48 kHz, as you wish.
jmschnur is offline  
post #7126 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 12:13 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RichB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 8,801
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 272 Post(s)
Liked: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

But isn't every piece of gear processing sound? Maybe you just like your Oppo processing better smile.gif

Yes, I. That there is an A/D conversion.
According to the manual, the AV8801 does the least processing in pure-direct mode. In listening to it, I concur.
Sometimes folks are surprised that anyone would use Pure Direct. I don't get that, after all it is just as valid as using Audyssey.

I usually stream via the BDP-105 from my PC using J River which is processed by the DAC and no other processing is possible within the BDP-105.

- Rich
audiofan1 likes this.

Oppo Beta Group

Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A51 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
RichB is offline  
post #7127 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 12:19 PM
AVS Special Member
 
comfynumb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Northeast PA.
Posts: 4,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Yes, I. That there is an A/D conversion.
According to the manual, the AV8801 does the least processing in pure-direct mode. In listening to it, I concur.
Sometimes folks are surprised that anyone would use Pure Direct. I don't get that, after all it is just as valid as using Audyssey.

I usually stream via the BDP-105 from my PC using J River which is processed by the DAC and no other processing is possible within the BDP-105.

- Rich



I guess I'm one of those guys Rich, I get using pure direct about as much as I get opera music smile.gif IMO the sound is bland and has a very low volume output. If you and others like it I understand, this is all to taste anyway.
comfynumb is offline  
post #7128 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 01:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

I guess I'm one of those guys Rich, I get using pure direct about as much as I get opera music smile.gif IMO the sound is bland and has a very low volume output. If you and others like it I understand, this is all to taste anyway.

For 2/ch sacd , usb and high res stuff and even good old cd, its the cats meow, though Rich and I may differ on the mode and connection methods , he's absolutely right on the merits of the 105/8801 as preamp in Pure direct wink.gif
audiofan1 is online now  
post #7129 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 01:08 PM
AVS Special Member
 
RichB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 8,801
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 272 Post(s)
Liked: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

For 2/ch sacd , usb and high res stuff and even good old cd, its the cats meow, though Rich and I may differ on the mode and connection methods , he's absolutely right on the merits of the 105/8801 as preamp in Pure direct wink.gif

Absolutely, there are no wrong answers.
However, I would not describe the sound of the Salons in my room as lifeless.
I will try Audyssey and DEQ when I et back from vacation.

- Rich

Oppo Beta Group

Oppo BDP-105D | Oppo HA-1 | Oppo PM-1 | Parasound A51 | Revel Salon, Voice, Studio | Velodyne HGS-15
RichB is offline  
post #7130 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 01:52 PM
Senior Member
 
jam88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Montreal
Posts: 413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Folks, after some deeper thinking today as a result of by my reply to matthewa concerning AL32 processing, I've revised some of the observations on my post, "The Case for AL32 Processing on the Marantz AV8801 Revisited", with a more granular analysis that better reflects the situation. I invite you to read the portion that comes after the Denon response highlighted in blue italics.
jam88 is offline  
post #7131 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 02:49 PM
AVS Special Member
 
comfynumb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Northeast PA.
Posts: 4,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

For 2/ch sacd , usb and high res stuff and even good old cd, its the cats meow, though Rich and I may differ on the mode and connection methods , he's absolutely right on the merits of the 105/8801 as preamp in Pure direct wink.gif



I'll have to try it smile.gif
comfynumb is offline  
post #7132 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 03:10 PM
Senior Member
 
jam88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Montreal
Posts: 413
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by matthewa View Post

So what, it's just design decisions by two companies carving up DSP / MIPS for different uses, as long as people are liking the sound the rest is arbitrary

"So what" ? "Arbitrary" ?

The fact that Marantz/Denon downres's and Anthem doesn't, obviously matters to some people.

Kevin, I beg to differ. The Anthem D2v also downsamples. The Anthem D2v webpage states the following about its DACs: "Converters operate at their full 24-bit x 192-kHz resolution". They therefore also downsample but to a lesser extent, i.e. to 96 kHz.

If the DACs can run at 192 kHz / 24-bit, then ideally the room EQ solutions should also be able to run at such high resolutions since there are audio formats that support those resolutions such as DVD-Audio and Blu-ray. While there aren't many recordings that support such high resolutions, there are a few and there may be more in the future.

Over the last dozen of years that I've followed the development of various digital room correction systems, anything from Tact, DEQX, Audyssey, Dynaton, Lyndorf, Trinnov and Dirac to name a few, I can't honestly off the top of my head recall any of them that support digital room correction of PCM signals above 96 kHz / 24-bit, while most of them use 192 kHz / 24-bit DACs. The reason is quite simple, like Chris Kariakakis from Audyssey says, it's about a lack of MIPS due to the higher cost and increased complexity of adding more DSPs. Like Danielo commented earlier, the Denon/Marantz higher-end platforms do position themselves on the higher-end of the spectrum with respect to DSP power compared to their competitors in the market, arguably more so than Anthem. It's just that Denon/Marantz support more features with more algorithms that end up chipping more away from those greater DSP resources. In the future with declining costs and the introduction of higher performance DSPs, room EQ solutions will most likely run all full spec.

That said, the question is, do we really loose anything over 48 kHz / 24-bit? That's debatable. Personally, I can't say that I feel I've missed anything on the handful of 192 kHz / 24-bit recordings I own. Even with my 96 kHz / 24-bit recordings, I much prefer running Audyssey even with the downsampling. The benefits to Audyssey far outweigh the questionable losses in resolution.
Dave Vaughn likes this.
jam88 is offline  
post #7133 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 10:54 PM
Newbie
 
Dan Laufman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 7
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I have no experience with Emotiva and were I I'm the market for powerful mono block I would give the XPR a try.
I too am extremely pleased with the A51. It just sounds great at low and high volume.

I believe it is made in Taiwan wink.gif
Even American ,made Outlaw/ATI probably have some Chinese parts.

- Rich

You think??

Clearly none of you have been to China. You might be surprised if you knew the truth about Asian sourcing. China is Taiwan's workshop. Japan's too. It's a global supply chain. You can't escape it if you're building electronics. It's "Assembled in USA" at best. We're doing it too, even with our American made products.

99% of what's inside every consumer electronics product comes from China or is made in China in some manner these days. I've watched very expensive "British" products go down the assembly lines in China. That even surprised me! Guess what? The price didn't go down when they went to China... but their cost sure did! But you're cool with that. How about some the other VERY expensive brands that are made in China. They get a pass. Why?? They're made in the same "smelly" factories as our products. And why the thinly veiled disrespect for Chinese workers? They are some of the nicest and hardest working people I've ever met. There is a reason they are succeeding. When you go to China and watch the pace of work and their focus it is amazing to witness. It feels like we are sleep walking in America. Forget politics, I'm talking about people.

As an OEM supplier I've watched American companies pull the Made in China markings off their products and sub-assemblies and place Made in USA stickers on them when they arrive in the USA. That really bothered me. The other trick is to put the country of origin in the smallest type print possible and say something cute like "Designed in the USA - made in PRC". What the heck is PRC?? It's not a legal marking. I just bought a subwoofer from one of the internet "darling" brands marked this way. And I had to really look for it. Not cool. I bought a Viking toaster and I had to look for five minutes to find the country of origin marking. This is not cool either. But, they get a pass too.

The difference between our company and many others is that we do not deceive our customers. We are very clear and honest about the performance of our gear. And where its made. We post extensive Audio Precision test data on all products for your review and comparison. We've got nothing to hide. You want the 1 watt THD data? Take a look, it's there. We show the internal build quality of EVERY product we make so that you can see for yourself what you are buying. We invite critical comparison. We thrive on it. This is how we gain market share. People see us and the competition in the clear light of day and make a decision with their minds and their pocket books.

We also pass our lean business model cost savings on to our clients instead of gouging them, We offer incredibly well made and highly competitive products for a fraction of the price of our competitors. Even if you add back the typical 40-50% profit margin for the dealer, we are half the cost of the nearest equivalent product from our direct competitors. Why all of the hatred?? It's not rational. You should at least show some respect for our honesty.

So, go ahead and have fun feeling superior and knocking us and the people who like our company and our gear. But the truth will win out. We're not a perfect company, but we put our customers needs first. We stand behind everything we build. We have five year transferrable warranties. We have a no hassle return policy. We ship at no charge. When something goes wrong, we fix it. Did our friend with the "smelly" amps get stuck with them? Nope, we gave him full refund. And I took care of him personally. Because I care. Did you know our Emotiva Lounge receives well over a million page views per month? Someone must be interested in what we are doing.

We are growing at a rate that makes our competitors dislike us. And apparently a lot of you too. I can live with it. The vast majority of our customers love us, and that's what counts to me.

Remember when it was fun to goof on Hyundai? So do I. At the time I told my friends to go ahead and laugh, but keep an eye on them because they were going to be the real deal very soon. And now look. Do you see Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and every other car maker in the world laughing as they take huge pieces of their market share? Are they considered cheap Korean junk anymore? No. Why? Quality and value. The facts are hard to refute over time. Logic and reason win out.

How's your iPhone working? Or you Mac? Or you new HD flat screen?? Your cool front projector? Are they all cheap, smelly, Chinese junk too? The majority of what you own from clothing, housewares, electronics, furniture, even the American flag that you wave so proudly is made in China. Let's get real.

Think about it.

Cheers,

Dan Laufman
President
Emotiva Audio Corp.

Dan Laufman
President
Emotiva Audio Corporation
Dan Laufman is offline  
post #7134 of 12219 Old 07-26-2013, 11:47 PM
Senior Member
 
matthewa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 344
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Laufman View Post

You think??

Clearly none of you have been to China. You might be surprised if you knew the truth about Asian sourcing. China is Taiwan's workshop. Japan's too. It's a global supply chain. You can't escape it if you're building electronics. It's "Assembled in USA" at best. We're doing it too, even with our American made products.

99% of what's inside every consumer electronics product comes from China or is made in China in some manner these days. I've watched very expensive "British" products go down the assembly lines in China. That even surprised me! Guess what? The price didn't go down when they went to China... but their cost sure did! But you're cool with that. How about some the other VERY expensive brands that are made in China. They get a pass. Why?? They're made in the same "smelly" factories as our products. And why the thinly veiled disrespect for Chinese workers? They are some of the nicest and hardest working people I've ever met. There is a reason they are succeeding. When you go to China and watch the pace of work and their focus it is amazing to witness. It feels like we are sleep walking in America. Forget politics, I'm talking about people.

As an OEM supplier I've watched American companies pull the Made in China markings off their products and sub-assemblies and place Made in USA stickers on them when they arrive in the USA. That really bothered me. The other trick is to put the country of origin in the smallest type print possible and say something cute like "Designed in the USA - made in PRC". What the heck is PRC?? It's not a legal marking. I just bought a subwoofer from one of the internet "darling" brands marked this way. And I had to really look for it. Not cool. I bought a Viking toaster and I had to look for five minutes to find the country of origin marking. This is not cool either. But, they get a pass too.

The difference between our company and many others is that we do not deceive our customers. We are very clear and honest about the performance of our gear. And where its made. We post extensive Audio Precision test data on all products for your review and comparison. We've got nothing to hide. You want the 1 watt THD data? Take a look, it's there. We show the internal build quality of EVERY product we make so that you can see for yourself what you are buying. We invite critical comparison. We thrive on it. This is how we gain market share. People see us and the competition in the clear light of day and make a decision with their minds and their pocket books.

We also pass our lean business model cost savings on to our clients instead of gouging them, We offer incredibly well made and highly competitive products for a fraction of the price of our competitors. Even if you add back the typical 40-50% profit margin for the dealer, we are half the cost of the nearest equivalent product from our direct competitors. Why all of the hatred?? It's not rational. You should at least show some respect for our honesty.

So, go ahead and have fun feeling superior and knocking us and the people who like our company and our gear. But the truth will win out. We're not a perfect company, but we put our customers needs first. We stand behind everything we build. We have five year transferrable warranties. We have a no hassle return policy. We ship at no charge. When something goes wrong, we fix it. Did our friend with the "smelly" amps get stuck with them? Nope, we gave him full refund. And I took care of him personally. Because I care. Did you know our Emotiva Lounge receives well over a million page views per month? Someone must be interested in what we are doing.

We are growing at a rate that makes our competitors dislike us. And apparently a lot of you too. I can live with it. The vast majority of our customers love us, and that's what counts to me.

Remember when it was fun to goof on Hyundai? So do I. At the time I told my friends to go ahead and laugh, but keep an eye on them because they were going to be the real deal very soon. And now look. Do you see Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and every other car maker in the world laughing as they take huge pieces of their market share? Are they considered cheap Korean junk anymore? No. Why? Quality and value. The facts are hard to refute over time. Logic and reason win out.

How's your iPhone working? Or you Mac? Or you new HD flat screen?? Your cool front projector? Are they all cheap, smelly, Chinese junk too? The majority of what you own from clothing, housewares, electronics, furniture, even the American flag that you wave so proudly is made in China. Let's get real.

Think about it.

Cheers,

Dan Laufman
President
Emotiva Audio Corp.
Thanks for the insight, we seem to be experiencing the same labelling tricks in Australia also. Hyundai is a good example, and it's great to have companies challenging the incumbents, with the right product & price it keeps everyone on their toes.

Sorry it took a marantz owners thread to get you posting after 4.5 years
matthewa is offline  
post #7135 of 12219 Old 07-27-2013, 12:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
danielo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Utrecht, Netherlands
Posts: 4,188
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Laufman View Post


*removed big parts*
We are growing at a rate that makes our competitors dislike us. And apparently a lot of you too. I can live with it. The vast majority of our customers love us, and that's what counts to me.

Think about it.

Cheers,

Dan Laufman
President
Emotiva Audio Corp.

I agree with most of your post and its very nice a company tells the inside story like this.

But let me defend some of the 'dislike' from a part of this community for your products. You see many people giving advice to look at your brand for amps but (since this is a pre/pro thread) being very shy towards the components that need large digital/software parts like your pre/pro's. This has nothing todo with what you outlined and everything todo with products you released or delayed in the past. For many a proven trackrecord for delivering and stable use is what we base our advice on since its a important part that makes a forum like this different than other reviews, personal longtime use. Now even today i would advice a Marantz and/or Denon pre/pro over many brands including yours because of this.That part you have to earn over time and has nothing todo with some of the weird views people have over production in china.

Daniel.

for men to evolve we have to upgrade
danielo is offline  
post #7136 of 12219 Old 07-27-2013, 01:44 AM
AVS Special Member
 
audiofan1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3,152
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 109 Post(s)
Liked: 481
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Laufman View Post

You think??

Clearly none of you have been to China. You might be surprised if you knew the truth about Asian sourcing. China is Taiwan's workshop. Japan's too. It's a global supply chain. You can't escape it if you're building electronics. It's "Assembled in USA" at best. We're doing it too, even with our American made products.

99% of what's inside every consumer electronics product comes from China or is made in China in some manner these days. I've watched very expensive "British" products go down the assembly lines in China. That even surprised me! Guess what? The price didn't go down when they went to China... but their cost sure did! But you're cool with that. How about some the other VERY expensive brands that are made in China. They get a pass. Why?? They're made in the same "smelly" factories as our products. And why the thinly veiled disrespect for Chinese workers? They are some of the nicest and hardest working people I've ever met.There is a reason they are succeeding. When you go to China and watch the pace of work and their focus it is amazing to witness. It feels like we are sleep walking in America. Forget politics, I'm talking about people.

As an OEM supplier I've watched American companies pull the Made in China markings off their products and sub-assemblies and place Made in USA stickers on them when they arrive in the USA. That really bothered me. The other trick is to put the country of origin in the smallest type print possible and say something cute like "Designed in the USA - made in PRC". What the heck is PRC?? It's not a legal marking. I just bought a subwoofer from one of the internet "darling" brands marked this way. And I had to really look for it. Not cool. I bought a Viking toaster and I had to look for five minutes to find the country of origin marking. This is not cool either. But, they get a pass too.

The difference between our company and many others is that we do not deceive our customers. We are very clear and honest about the performance of our gear. And where its made. We post extensive Audio Precision test data on all products for your review and comparison. We've got nothing to hide. You want the 1 watt THD data? Take a look, it's there. We show the internal build quality of EVERY product we make so that you can see for yourself what you are buying. We invite critical comparison. We thrive on it. This is how we gain market share. People see us and the competition in the clear light of day and make a decision with their minds and their pocket books.

We also pass our lean business model cost savings on to our clients instead of gouging them, We offer incredibly well made and highly competitive products for a fraction of the price of our competitors. Even if you add back the typical 40-50% profit margin for the dealer, we are half the cost of the nearest equivalent product from our direct competitors. Why all of the hatred?? It's not rational. You should at least show some respect for our honesty.

So, go ahead and have fun feeling superior and knocking us and the people who like our company and our gear. But the truth will win out. We're not a perfect company, but we put our customers needs first. We stand behind everything we build. We have five year transferrable warranties. We have a no hassle return policy. We ship at no charge. When something goes wrong, we fix it. Did our friend with the "smelly" amps get stuck with them? Nope, we gave him full refund. And I took care of him personally. Because I care. Did you know our Emotiva Lounge receives well over a million page views per month? Someone must be interested in what we are doing.

We are growing at a rate that makes our competitors dislike us. And apparently a lot of you too. I can live with it. The vast majority of our customers love us, and that's what counts to me.

Remember when it was fun to goof on Hyundai? So do I. At the time I told my friends to go ahead and laugh, but keep an eye on them because they were going to be the real deal very soon. And now look. Do you see Toyota, Nissan, Honda, and every other car maker in the world laughing as they take huge pieces of their market share? Are they considered cheap Korean junk anymore? No. Why? Quality and value. The facts are hard to refute over time. Logic and reason win out.

How's your iPhone working? Or you Mac? Or you new HD flat screen?? Your cool front projector? Are they all cheap, smelly, Chinese junk too? The majority of what you own from clothing, housewares, electronics, furniture, even the American flag that you wave so proudly is made in China. Let's get real.

Think about it.

Cheers,

Dan Laufman
President
Emotiva Audio Corp.

I like many other fine American's are wide awake and going to work each day doing our best to put our best foot forward and are proud of the work we do! And just so you know you directed your post at someone who like myself said they would most likely give Emotiva a try! Rich isn't the person who made the smelly comment.

What I can tell you is this, I personally will no longer consider an Emotiva product. The best way to defend your product is to simply keep building better ones and soon the word would catch on, as it already was ,but after this post or shall I say insult on this people and land I live, you could have the best gear around and sell it for a good old American dollar but you won't get mine .
comfynumb likes this.
audiofan1 is online now  
post #7137 of 12219 Old 07-27-2013, 03:43 AM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 23,016
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked: 419
Moderator

respectfully request we get back to the thread topic: Marantz 8801 pre/pro
WLGeter likes this.
markrubin is offline  
post #7138 of 12219 Old 07-27-2013, 03:56 AM
AVS Special Member
 
comfynumb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Northeast PA.
Posts: 4,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Geez I leave for 12 hours and the place falls apart.
What did Rich do to be the target of that rant? He wasn't the one that made the smelly joke. Talk about a melt down. China's economy is booming because of all the big companies outsourcing American (and many other countries) jobs to them. Nothing against the Chinese worker, but the ones that run the place are some of the most corrupt people on the planet. They are also great at stealing all our secrets and then copying them, great hackers too. If all the companies that have outsourced our jobs weren't so greedy our economy wouldn't be in the shape it's in. They are all their so they can pay less and make more. People would gladly pay a little more for products that were made in their own country. Too bad you didn't stick up for the American worker like you just stuck up for China. You have no loyalty to any worker and if it was cheaper to put your gear together somewhere else you'd leave China too.
jam88 likes this.
comfynumb is offline  
post #7139 of 12219 Old 07-27-2013, 04:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
comfynumb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Northeast PA.
Posts: 4,804
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 409
Oops, sorry Mark, I won't speak of this again smile.gif
comfynumb is offline  
post #7140 of 12219 Old 07-27-2013, 04:08 AM
AVS Special Member
 
ss9001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: metro Atlanta
Posts: 8,681
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Liked: 331
wow eek.gif

there's truth being spoken by both "sides"

the same person who had the "smelly" amps also complains about a small, highly respected in audiophile circles, great performance:value ratio, and Made in Minnesota speaker company who won't sell internet direct, so he has to pay a higher price rolleyes.gif even begrudging a dealer the opportunity to make some money for showroom, listening audition opportunities. at the same time, criticizes a respected internet direct CE company because of a lemon. carefully read his remarks in the speaker forum, and decide for yourself where his head's at.

at same time, I also agree that amps are one thing, designing bug-free processors that reliably work is quite another. leaving customers with buggy gear and hope they come back for more is optimistic thinking at best. While I actually am seriously considering one or more of the XPR/Sherbourn amps, I would not place my dollars in one of their unproven prepros.

FWIW, I don't own the 8801, still a Pioneer enthusiast, but been following this thread since the beginning just to see what's available. especially been interested in the whole downsampling / upsampling debate smile.gif I'm only posting because of the circumstances with respect to the gentleman in question and response by the company.

I also agree that the actual mfg source has no relevance in this because just about all CE gear has been made in China for quite some time. Intel processors have been made in Asian/Pacific countries for decades. Your Marantz 8801 & Denon 4520 are probably made by Inkel or similar company in China. One of our forum members, IIRC, MCode, has documented & posted that this company makes many Denon & Pioneer receivers in the same assembly lines to each company's specs eek.gif Someone discovered about a year ago that some of the FW code in his Pioneer for networking says something to the effect that its "licensed from Denon" or affiliated with Denon! when is a Denon not a Pioneer wink.gif

and everyone gets all wrapped up in debates why his brand or model sounds better than the other rolleyes.gif when they're all made in the same factory, using (ahem) some of the same code, decoders, etc.

sometimes this forum's debates & squabbles seem kind of petty.

at least you guys have intelligent adult discussions. Pioneer threads are littered with petty complaints, people who whine they can't get something to work but don't read their manuals tongue.gif

I don't own any Emotiva gear, yet. and a year ago, I openly posted that I'd look at other amps before an Emotiva. But now, I'm not sure spending $4000 for an ATI/Outlaw vs. $2000 for a 7 ch Sherbourn is the best use of my AV dollars. I can afford this hobby obviously, but I'm not one of the 1% either and I can certainly use the difference in price for other things like my retirement fund!

So, even for me, when it comes to that much money difference, being a purist-idealist has limits wink.gif
Dave Vaughn likes this.

Steve
ss9001 is offline  
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Tags
Ken Kreisel Dxd 12012 Subwoofer , Marantz Av8801 , Receivers Amplifiers , Audyssey , Integra
Gear in this thread - Av8801 by PriceGrabber.com

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off