Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 277 - AVS Forum
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post #8281 of 11981 Old 09-20-2013, 01:13 AM
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^^^^ thanks Audiofan

would you recommend some price/performance rca cables please ?

Emotiva XPR-5 | Marantz AV8801 | Klipsch RF-7II Front | Klipsch RF-82II Surround | Klipsch RC-52II Center | Elitescreen Vmax2 120" screen | Epson 5910 Pj | Playstation 3
On the way : Oppo 105 BRP | Klipsch RC-64II Center | Sunfire HRS-12 Sub | Emotiva XPR-2 | Klipsch SB-61II
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post #8282 of 11981 Old 09-20-2013, 01:22 AM
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Morrow Audio I recommend giving the MA1 a try as its only $49 and see what the bring to your setup I have a pair and love them and have moved to the MA3 &MA4 xlr's 60day return and can be traded up to the next model. There just simply great sounding cables as they replaced some good AQ stuff in my setup while not breaking the bank wink.gif
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post #8283 of 11981 Old 09-20-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

That is a VERY long sentence. I had trouble with your train of thought at points, but your main objective here is to get rid of "Bass Bloat" correct? Then Keep LFE+Main OFF. Think of it this way, in other receiver brands, they don't call it "LFE+ Main," they call it "Double Bass." As in, BOTH the subs and the mains are going to play the SAME frequencies and more than likely create that "Bloat" you speak of. I am going to try and break this down one more time here:
If you have the LFE only setting, and your speakers are set to SMALL and with a 40hz crossover, then your MAINS will play DOWN TO 40hz, where your sub will then take over. if you want the subs to take care of the response up to 80hz, then adjust the crossover up to 80hz. Yes this shifts the response away from your mains to your subs, but those "subs" that are built into your mains will STILL BE WORKING as there is still plenty of "bass" above 80hz.
WRONG. If you have your mains set to "small" and the crossover set to 40, then your main's subs are going to still produce the 40-80hz area. If you set this to 80hz like I said above, then NO, the mains sub at that point will not be playing the 40-80hz as you at that point have given it to your REAL sub.

I don't want to confuse you any more than you are, but these "crossovers" are not brick walls. The response just doesn't DEAD STOP at the frequency chosen, they just begin to roll off softly. It looks like this:



The green line is the sub, the blue is the mains, and the red is the nicely combined sum of both. That above is a crossover of 100hz, mains set to small, and LFE on its own (NOT LFE+ Main)

I have one more question on this to make sure I understand. If I have my mains set to small. X-over at 60 hz with subs on, can I play music in Pure Direct and will this still use bass management? LFE sent from mains to subs? With my current avr this is the case. Using LFE+Mains incorporates double bass. For the 8801, I know when the mains are set to large and you select Pure Direct you have to set it to LFE+Mains to get output from the subs. But what is the case for mains set to small in Pure Direct with subs? Thanks for the assistance.
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post #8284 of 11981 Old 09-20-2013, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melon17 View Post

I have one more question on this to make sure I understand. If I have my mains set to small. X-over at 60 hz with subs on, can I play music in Pure Direct and will this still use bass management?
No. Direct and Pure Direct disable processing of the audio signal and thus disable bass management. In other words, low frequencies are not removed from the main speaker channels. However, the bass output is limited by the capabilities of the woofers in your main speakers.
Quote:
LFE sent from mains to subs?
Unfortunately, I think you're misusing the acronym LFE in this situation. When your audio system's subwoofer is enabled, a movie's LFE (.1 Low Frequency Effects) channel is never sent to the mains. It's sent only to the subwoofer(s). Of course, when speakers are set to "Small" (which really means "enable bass management"), the low frequencies below the crossover frequency are removed from the main speaker channels and sent to the subwoofer channel instead, but that's not LFE.
Quote:
With my current avr this is the case. Using LFE+Mains incorporates double bass. For the 8801, I know when the mains are set to large and you select Pure Direct you have to set it to LFE+Mains to get output from the subs. But what is the case for mains set to small in Pure Direct with subs? Thanks for the assistance.
Pure Direct ignores the "Small" setting. It disables bass management.

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post #8285 of 11981 Old 09-20-2013, 09:50 AM
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@Melon17

PURE DIRECT (and DIRECT for that matter) operate the same regardless of the mains being set to LARGE or SMALL .. there is NO BASS MANAGEMENT. The only way to have the front main lower frequencies passed to the sub in PURE DIRECT/DIRECT is to set the sub to LFE+MAIN.

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post #8286 of 11981 Old 09-20-2013, 04:45 PM
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I re-calibrated my 7.2 HTS again yesterday, because I realized that I had made a MAJOR Mistake!
I had used the Subwoofer's Crossovers, by turning the Knobs behind the Subwoofers to 80 Hz, for a pair of my Velodynes and a pair of Built-in Subwoofers on my Polkaudio LSi25s.
Yesterday, I connected the Velodynes with Subwoofer Cables out from the AV8801 SW1 and SW2 outlets and the Main LSi25 Subwoofers from the AV8801 Front outs (as I used the Balanced Outlets for the Main Woofers/Tweeters, out the the Amplifier). The LSi25 Subwoofers inputs were LINE IN, and not the LFE IN, as I only have a pair of LFE (SW) outlets that I used for the Velodyne Subwoofers.
I turned the knob behind all my 4 Subwoofers to either the Direct mode or the maximum high so as not to use the Subwoofer Crossovers built inside them.
I used all 8 positions to calibrate via Audyssey and changed all my Speakers to "Small" and the Bass setting to "LFE" and the LPF to 80 Hz and the HPF to 80 Hz as well, for all of my 7 Speakers, including the Front Mains; the Subwoofer Phase is 0 degree for all 4 of them.
I guess, currently my Front Main Subwoofers in the LSi25s are producing frequencies between the 80 and somewhere around 150 Hz (or whatever the AV8801 has set the LPF to for the Main Subwoofer section).
I have not listened to the setup much after the calibration last night, but I will tomorrow; I will see if there are noticeable improvement in the Bass section!!!
Any suggestions or recommendations would be appreciated!
Thanks.
Ken.
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post #8287 of 11981 Old 09-20-2013, 11:18 PM
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Be88663 leave the HPF at 120hz like several of the guys above have advised, your cutting of 40hz of sound in your .1 SW channels
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post #8288 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 07:05 AM
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Yeah, actually I did change the LPF for the LFE to 120 Hz, as it is not really a Crossover but a Filter that only applies to the LFE.
Thanks.

I have yet to test my setup with a couple of movies today if I have time.
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post #8289 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 07:17 AM
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I know setting the LPF to 120 Hz has been suggested before. Right now mine is set to 100 Hz, is this a subtle change for most? Right now I'm having subwoofer malfunctions, and about to pull the trigger on a new sub, replace the 10" driver in my def tech supercube 1 and move that behind my couch, I don't think it's recommended to have two different subs on the front wall.
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post #8290 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 09:55 AM
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If you are in to two subs, check out
Keith's submersives. A bit less expensive ans smaller are the JL 112s .
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post #8291 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmschnur View Post

If you are in to two subs, check out
Keith's submersives. A bit less expensive ans smaller are the JL 112s .



Yes I saw them and would like to get one of them but they are a little pricey and we had far from a banner year as far as work goes. I would buy a used one of these but can't really find any, which tells you something. I didn't pull the trigger yet, so all options are still on the table. Seaton's website has been down for weeks, I can't find their current pricing really.


Edit;
I found pricing on their forum. One with a used amp would be nearly 2 grand shipped.
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post #8292 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 11:26 AM
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I am adding height speakers to my system. Can I manually assign the through the speaker setup menu or will I have to re run Audyssey?

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post #8293 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 11:33 AM
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Need to rerun Audyssey .
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post #8294 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 12:07 PM
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I watched Avatar and Hell Boy II since this morning in my newly calibrated setup, with all the changes in the Bass setting, HPF, LPF for the LFE, and Speaker setting, as aforementioned.
Very pleased with the overal sound and the difference!!!
The sound was clearer with more bass!
Too bad that I had had all the equipments for the past one year, but had not been using them properly; but it is better to have figured them out now than later.
An incident of the importance of knowing how to use what you already have, properly.
Very Cool.
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post #8295 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 View Post

My guess is the basis of that comment is a graph that looks like this. The general shape isn't uncommon for output vs. THD in SS amplifers. The difference is measurable, but the relevance to audibility is certainly questionable.
graph.jpg 13k .jpg file

May I ask which amplifier was measured to get this graph and who made the measurements?

Are you sure the measurements don't include noise? Normally published THD results include noise.
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post #8296 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post

I've tried all the digital outputs from the BDP-105 to the AV8801 and thus using the DAC's in the AV8801. I've also tried the XLR's, which use the DAC's in the BDP-105, and using the Direct or Pure Direct setting in the AV8801. Using Direct or Pure Direct on the AV8801 with the XLR connections provides by far the best results - the sound is just plain cleaner using the DAC's in the BDP-105.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkat View Post

thank you bigguyca. I also heard similar comments however I am struggling to understand how oppo's DAC can perform better than a flagship pre such as 8801. if audio DAC is not good as oppo then I dont even talk about video processing performance of the 8801. if so is it harsh to think that we are just exaggerating 8801?

First a little clarification:

I use the Direct/Pure Direct setup of the AV8801 with the BDP-105 connected via XLR's to the AV8801 for stereo, typically using CD's in the BDP-105 for a source. I use the DAC's in the AV8801 for multichannel audio associated with video with input via HDMI. I use the AV8801 in this case because I like to use the various audio processing capabilities of the AV8801, such as Audyssey, for video. I find the BDP-105 too limiting as a AV control center. I really like both of these setups.


My use of the term DAC in the above posts is rather sloppy. I really should say the whole DAC system of the BDP-105 or AV8801. This "system" includes many subsystems such as how the digital signals are input, how the whole system is timed, the actual DAC chip, potentially any digital filtering which is done external to the DAC, and the analog circuitry following the DAC chip. There is lots of room here for variation in design and performance in the whole system, even if the same DAC chip is used by each component, which in this case it isn't.

An example of variation: there was a lot of discussion concerning whether the AV8801 uses AL32 multiprocessing in earlier posts. If it uses this processing or similar processing then it does a lot of digital filtering and processing outside of the DAC chip itself.

The actual DAC chips used by the two components seem to be quite different. Marantz I believe uses a TI/Burr Brown chip while OPPO uses a quite different Sabre DAC from ESS technologies. There is an excellent presentation by Martin Mallinson of ESS Technologies from the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest on YouTube concerning the Sabre DAC.

Likely current outputs are used from both DAC chips. How well these currents are converted to voltages has an import effect on audio quality. The picture of the inside of the BDP-105 on the OPPO's website shows that this conversion is done with some rather extensive circuitry employing IC op-amps. I don't know anything more specifically about this circuitry. The Marantz uses HDAM discrete circuits for analog output buffers but again I don't know any other details of their analog design. (Using the XLR inputs to connect the OPPO to the Marantz uses these same output buffers of course.) Based on what is visible of the analog circuitry, the two component carry out the current to voltage conversion using different designs.

The HiFi News (UK) website has a link to the extensive measurements that they perform as part of their reviews. The results from the tests of the BDP-105, which as I remember are from an early 2013 issue, are the best overall that I've found on their website for a stand alone DAC or a CD player. HiFi News hasn't tested the AV8801. They have tested a number of DAC systems (stand alone and in part of other components) at all price levels.

I'm not a circuit designer, nor do I have knowledge of the details of either component, but It seems there are many points in the design of the DAC systems in the AV8801 and BDP-105, including those mentioned above, that could cause variations in performance.
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post #8297 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigguyca View Post


First a little clarification:

I use the Direct/Pure Direct setup of the AV8801 with the BDP-105 connected via XLR's to the AV8801 for stereo, typically using CD's in the BDP-105 for a source. I use the DAC's in the AV8801 for multichannel audio associated with video with input via HDMI. I use the AV8801 in this case because I like to use the various audio processing capabilities of the AV8801, such as Audyssey, for video. I find the BDP-105 too limiting as a AV control center. I really like both of these setups.


My use of the term DAC in the above posts is rather sloppy. I really should say the whole DAC system of the BDP-105 or AV8801. This "system" includes many subsystems such as how the digital signals are input, how the whole system is timed, the actual DAC chip, potentially any digital filtering which is done external to the DAC, and the analog circuitry following the DAC chip. There is lots of room here for variation in design and performance in the whole system, even if the same DAC chip is used by each component, which in this case it isn't.

An example of variation: there was a lot of discussion concerning whether the AV8801 uses AL32 multiprocessing in earlier posts. If it uses this processing or similar processing then it does a lot of digital filtering and processing outside of the DAC chip itself.

The actual DAC chips used by the two components seem to be quite different. Marantz I believe uses a TI/Burr Brown chip while OPPO uses a quite different Sabre DAC from ESS technologies. There is an excellent presentation by Martin Mallinson of ESS Technologies from the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest on YouTube concerning the Sabre DAC.

Likely current outputs are used from both DAC chips. How well these currents are converted to voltages has an import effect on audio quality. The picture of the inside of the BDP-105 on the OPPO's website shows that this conversion is done with some rather extensive circuitry employing IC op-amps. I don't know anything more specifically about this circuitry. The Marantz uses HDAM discrete circuits for analog output buffers but again I don't know any other details of their analog design. (Using the XLR inputs to connect the OPPO to the Marantz uses these same output buffers of course.) Based on what is visible of the analog circuitry, the two component carry out the current to voltage conversion using different designs.

The HiFi News (UK) website has a link to the extensive measurements that they perform as part of their reviews. The results from the tests of the BDP-105, which as I remember are from an early 2013 issue, are the best overall that I've found on their website for a stand alone DAC or a CD player. HiFi News hasn't tested the AV8801. They have tested a number of DAC systems (stand alone and in part of other components) at all price levels.

I'm not a circuit designer, nor do I have knowledge of the details of either component, but It seems there are many points in the design of the DAC systems in the AV8801 and BDP-105, including those mentioned above, that could cause variations in performance.



Good post and exactly why we should let our ears be the final judge. In the end we all hear and have different expectations of "the" sound we are after. Listen to articles, measurements and people but trust our own judgement.
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post #8298 of 11981 Old 09-21-2013, 11:57 PM
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Cannot agree more comfynumb and thanks for detailed info big guy

Hey! Yesterday I changed my ecosse RCA cables with blue jeans Belden 1800f between 8801 and my xpr5. Oh boy I wasn't expecting such improvement at all. It's like there was a monster in my setup and I just unleashed it. I thought I had placebo but even my wife noticed the difference. Couldn't be happier...

Emotiva XPR-5 | Marantz AV8801 | Klipsch RF-7II Front | Klipsch RF-82II Surround | Klipsch RC-52II Center | Elitescreen Vmax2 120" screen | Epson 5910 Pj | Playstation 3
On the way : Oppo 105 BRP | Klipsch RC-64II Center | Sunfire HRS-12 Sub | Emotiva XPR-2 | Klipsch SB-61II
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post #8299 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkat View Post

Cannot agree more comfynumb and thanks for detailed info big guy

Hey! Yesterday I changed my ecosse RCA cables with blue jeans Belden 1800f between 8801 and my xpr5. Oh boy I wasn't expecting such improvement at all. It's like there was a monster in my setup and I just unleashed it. I thought I had placebo but even my wife noticed the difference. Couldn't be happier...

Good deal wink.gif
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post #8300 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 02:09 AM
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Japan here !first batch off the boat after the strike in CA biggrin.gif
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post #8301 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 07:10 AM
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thread cleanup
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post #8302 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 08:25 AM
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Just ordered a pair of XLR's from Blue Jean. Going to try them out, I'm using Monoprice now. If I like what I hear, ill order 5 more.

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post #8303 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goodkat View Post

Cannot agree more comfynumb and thanks for detailed info big guy

Hey! Yesterday I changed my ecosse RCA cables with blue jeans Belden 1800f between 8801 and my xpr5. Oh boy I wasn't expecting such improvement at all. It's like there was a monster in my setup and I just unleashed it. I thought I had placebo but even my wife noticed the difference. Couldn't be happier...
I have the very same amplifier (Emotive XPR-5), and very same (BJC) XLRs connecting to my AV8801 and also find them to be perfect together!
Everything is 'dead quiet', and music and movies jump out realistically from that 'black' background, its a nice 'combo platter' of equipment! smile.gif
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The Insane Pink Care Bear's Home Theater Set Up:

Marantz AV 8801 Processor, Emotiva XPR-5 Amplifier, Panasonic 65" ST30 Plasma, Yamaha BD-S2900 Blu-ray, Yamaha CDC-697 CD Player, Yamaha TT-500U Turntable, w/Signet TK5e, JBL ES100 Fronts, JBL LC2 Center, JBL ES30 Surrounds & 2 JBL ES250P Subwoofers
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post #8304 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Japan here !first batch off the boat after the strike in CA biggrin.gif
Good yours is not from China, who makes your iPhones, Households, Clothes, and everything else, except your Car, Baby Formulas, and the AV8801, for now! biggrin.gif
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post #8305 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 04:16 PM
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I found an interesting comment from Chris Kyriakakis, he works for the Audyssey Company:
" If it's MultEQ XT then change all speakers to Small (set xovers to 80 Hz). If it's MultEQ XT32 then you can leave everything as is because the subwoofer and speaker filters have much higher resolution and there is no added benefit in setting speakers to Small".
What do you think?
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post #8306 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 05:02 PM
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i just read that page and found this quote from Chris a few posts down "For XT32 we recommend leaving the crossover as found in the measurements, unless this results in your AVR setting the speakers to Large"

a bit confusing
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post #8307 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 09:19 PM
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Hello,
I recently got 8801 , had Onkyo 886 preamp.
Wow...the8801 is a vast improvement in sound quality. I never could get the Onkyo 886 to achieve sufficient SPL's for some reason.
With the 8801 I can achieve SPL's beyond what I need.
(using Emotiva 2 channel amp and rotel rmb 1095 5 channel amp),
the overall stereo and surround sound of the 8801 is discernibly improved.
One thing is with the Onkyo I could switch between multiple sound processing modes whereas with the Marantz 8801 it limits me to default 'music', 'movie', 'game'....modes.
I had initial problems with internet connectivity , but last firmware update resolved this?

Regards,
Paul
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post #8308 of 11981 Old 09-22-2013, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pxgarbar View Post

Hello,
I recently got 8801 , had Onkyo 886 preamp.
Wow...the8801 is a vast improvement in sound quality. I never could get the Onkyo 886 to achieve sufficient SPL's for some reason.
With the 8801 I can achieve SPL's beyond what I need.
(using Emotiva 2 channel amp and rotel rmb 1095 5 channel amp),
the overall stereo and surround sound of the 8801 is discernibly improved.
One thing is with the Onkyo I could switch between multiple sound processing modes whereas with the Marantz 8801 it limits me to default 'music', 'movie', 'game'....modes.
I had initial problems with internet connectivity , but last firmware update resolved this?

Regards,
Paul

Welcome to the club and congrats smile.gif To switch between the various listening modes you simply press say movie and use the cursor to select from the selection while in that section . The same will apply to music, game and Pure , once the button is pressed you may need to be a little quick to get to the cursor pad and just toggle up or down.

Enjoy your new setup wink.gif
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post #8309 of 11981 Old 09-23-2013, 12:33 AM
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Hi all. Need help Biamping 8801. I am trying to connect parasound a51 / focus se. I think I can get better sound by feeding more power to them.
Thx
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post #8310 of 11981 Old 09-23-2013, 01:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by be83663 View Post

Good yours is not from China, who makes your iPhones, Households, Clothes, and everything else, except your Car, Baby Formulas, and the AV8801, for now! biggrin.gif

Nothing like lead laced baby formula from China. Glad my 8801 was made in Japan.

Growing Older But Not Up
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