Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 12131 Old 12-13-2012, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mlknez View Post

2nd Digital zone, airplay support, Bluetooth support, different analog circuits and DACs, direct support of ALAC, HD radio tuner built in, many other differences. I would have to hear both to make a judgement.

Thank you. Probably the best post on this thread.

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post #902 of 12131 Old 12-13-2012, 10:09 PM
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Even though I believe the thread has gotten a bit off track, I would like to weigh in just a bit and try to get some input. When hearing the arguments of the objective vs subjective crowds, I find myself quoting Bill Clinton - "I feel very strongly both ways". I have had experiences with changing out DACs, changing digital signal paths to get rid of jitter, and found that I could not detect a difference. Non blind AB testing.. On the other hand, I swapped out amplifiers, and could hear a difference - and I fully realize that there are intelligent audio aficionados who would tell me it is all in my head, that there are no differences. I can live with that.
So - in the interest of both science and alchemy, I would like to know how, outside of a laboratory, how could one could do a scientific test of whether the 8801 sounds better than the 7701? I mean, in a home. Impossible? Unplugging and replugging in XLR cords would put a delay between listening sessions. Do you turn off Audyssey to keep XT vs 32 out of the equation? I will have them both, for at least a while.
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post #903 of 12131 Old 12-13-2012, 10:18 PM
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Originally Posted by DHF View Post

Do you turn off Audyssey to keep XT vs 32 out of the equation? I will have them both, for at least a while.

Do you pull two of the spark plugs when you test drive a porsche? i'm just saying...

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post #904 of 12131 Old 12-13-2012, 10:36 PM
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Just saying.......what?
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post #905 of 12131 Old 12-13-2012, 11:28 PM
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Me thinks he is saying.... If'n you got XT32, use it. Why would you go back to XT, other than to do some kind of personal testing? There is a lot of "non-subjective" science arguing XT32 is superior to XT and even more of the fun "subjective" stuff.

Also, there has been very little actual reviews or discussion about the 8801; as it is barely in anyone's hands. Tons of crazy rude comments about how lame the other side of the argument is.

My 2 cents.


I probably can argue that the 8801 is superior to my very trusty 4311. I do not need it to be noticably superior sounding. I guess, in this I fall in the DBT kind of crowd. But "can't we all just get along?" Wait, that guy died last year...... guess not so much.

I go back to car analogies. Is a souped up Taurus SHO (think Denon), better performing than an equivalent Lincoln MK-whatever with the same engine? Who cares, the Lincoln targets a slightly upscale market; otherwise, hey, let's face it..... it's a Ford. Marantz...... Lincoln......Denon...... Nicer Ford.

I bet the Marantz does have a nicer build (heck the internal photos look slick). It probably might have a mildly superior sound. Don't go all charty on me. Let's just assume that the D&M guys just did their job on their slightly upscale line....... Drink the koolaid deeply. You also get a real Pre-Amp... Not even available on the Denon side and you get every dang last new processing system.

If it is not worth the extra change for you to buy it...... Then don't. If it works for you, then do...... What I am not impressed about here is the "hater" type comments. People who gravitate to AVS are generally not total Audio Video newbies. We, in general; even the lamest of us, are the people who have friends that call us the go to geek guys. No DBT freak (which, BTW I am in the camp that most are in fact freaks). I see their rooms, I read their posts and let's just say, not always the best room treatment... often not the best set-ups. I am more in the wholeheartedly subjective camp. Realist though. My sort of expensive equipment is at best only marginally better than mid range gear these days. I do believe my speakers are better than most and for me...... speakers and the room matter the most. EQing for me is a koolaid drinking given. My crazy powerful amps are more in the cause I can camp .Ditto, the 800 Series B&W stuff. I could probably get just as good of sounding speakers for less but to me, they are a gorguous and timeless design. I still just love looking at them and yes, I covet 802 Diamonds in a 7 speaker configuration with yet more crazy bling for Heights and Wides. Not because they sound better (which I am sure they do) ut because they are all red Ferrari to me. Unfortunately the misses isn't going to be onboard with that look in the media room. Darn it!!!

So...... what's my point...... No chart reading, DBT freakin person is ever going to convince a $10,000 per cable loving person that the snake oil doesn't matter. This is not the thread and I would argue AVS is not really even the forum for such nonsense. Frankly once you have stated your scientific case for about the 1,000th time it gets very old.

There are just a ton of reasons that people buy equipment these days. Absolute performance is not even at the top of the list. It is about impressing friends, ego, cause I can, dang that is purty, hey my wife likes the look of it, hey I like the look of it, oooooh lights (replace with donuts if you want), whatever........

No one needs a $3,500 Pre-Amp. No one needs a $20,000 mono-block. Most consumers don't even know what a pre-amp is. Lighten up and let's here JoeRod's subjective stuff, Mastermaybe's chart on S/N ratio at reference, a metalurgical scientists discussion of copper plating, and my favorite, the Hot Yoga teaching Buddhist who blesses equipment at his temple for a side business. Does anyone think that the audience here is such dweebs we can't figure a lot of this out ourselves and enjoy the experience of engaging with mostly normal folk?


Cheers.
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post #906 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

No one needs a $3,500 Pre-Amp. No one needs a $20,000 mono-block. Most consumers don't even know what a pre-amp is. Lighten up and let's here JoeRod's subjective stuff, Mastermaybe's chart on S/N ratio at reference, a metalurgical scientists discussion of copper plating, and my favorite, the Hot Yoga teaching Buddhist who blesses equipment at his temple for a side business. Does anyone think that the audience here is such dweebs we can't figure a lot of this out ourselves and enjoy the experience of engaging with mostly normal folk?
Well said!
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post #907 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 01:50 AM
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As far as I'm concerned, Joe Rod's review is enough for me.

Samsung 64F8500, Panasonic 65VT50, Oppo 95, Tivo Roamio for OTA, Dish VIP722, Marantz AV8801 preamp, Rotel Amps, Atlantic Tech 8200 speakers, Seaton Submersive HP, Calman 5, Chromapure, Accupel DVG-5000, i1Display3pro, i1pro2, eecolor colorbox.
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post #908 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 04:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

No one needs a $3,500 Pre-Amp. No one needs a $20,000 mono-block.Cheers.

but maybe some of us really want one wink.gif

for whatever reasons...front panel displays (Pio SC-09), blue LED's in portholes, blue LED's on over-priced surge protectors, glossy black finish or 1/4" thick exotic looking aluminum front plates all included smile.gif

pure audio quality, subjective or objective, are not the only criteria and it's really hard sometimes to be honest with oneself on many of these things tongue.gif so we disguise our subjective wow factor reasons in objective-speak & pretend we may have "objective" reasons. human nature at work...that's why salesmanship & good marketing is the art of finding out what really motivates the buyer.

a Porsche Cayenne objectively may not do anything significantly different or better than a Kia Sorrento, at least enough to justify costing 1.5-2 times as much, but try telling that to a Porsche owner...

I won't deny one bit that if I were shopping now, which I'm not, I'd have to seriously consider this Marantz - in my heart I know I probably couldn't tell the difference at all between it & the 4520 but it still appeals to me & my long-term "desire" for hi-quality separates at a price I can afford. I don't care if Emotiva ever comes out with its prepro, even at 1/2 the price, because I know Emotiva's track record for crappy processors that don't work vs the performance, build quality & reputation of Pioneer, Denon, & Marantz.

and to belately answer Krobar, no, I'm not dumping my Pioneer Susano, but someday I might consider adding the 8801 wink.gif It's got the features of the 4520 + the kind of build quality of the Susano that I might place some value on. I may have no intention of getting a particular piece of gear, but I do like to keep up with new models, especially interesting ones. so, I'm just interested in how this stacks up vs the 4520. I have manuals for all kinds of prepros, receivers, amps, players, accessories on the hard drive just so I can try & keep up with what's out there.

no matter who reviews this, joerod included, he can't help trying to put objective reasons on something that is a subjective comparison at best. Does he have bench test gear & as knowledgeable about using it & interpreting the results as a Secrets of HiFi, Home Theater Mag or an Audioholics? don't know but probably not. So anything he comes up with will be subjective or a objective-subjective hybrid. that doesn't mean it has no value, not saying that at all, just means the burden is on us to realize this and understand the limitations of any review we read.

joe, I'll read your review and will look for it when you're done.

but what I won't do is consider anyone's opinion as gospel, even Joe's, and run out and replace my current gear with it. I'd want to go look at one, read the manual, do a listening audition if at all possible, and decide for myself if that extra $1500 is worth it vs the 4520 & my existing setup.

as much as I've read some of Joe's reviews over the years, I've learned to trust no one's subjective bias' better than my own tongue.gifwink.gif

a pet peeve I have is all the posts from people asking whether they should buy brand x or brand y and expect to get free sales advice. One, nobody can possibly know the objective answer to that and two, have so many people turned into lazy sheep that they'll take the advice of someone they've never met, have no idea what their qual's are, over reputable dealers or their own ability to download manuals & read them? looks that way and that's sad. what's worse is when they get advice & it's not what they want to hear, they argue with you about it tongue.gif

random musings on a Fri morning

OK, Joe, the ball is in your court smile.gif
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post #909 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 05:31 AM
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Aesthetic value is a legitimate reason to want something, possibly not need but want. Marantz products have better aesthetics so someone might choose to buy them for that reason.
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post #910 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 05:34 AM
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Stay on topic guys...

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post #911 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Lang View Post

Stay on topic guys...

Sorry, everyone seems to be bored waiting for their unit.

Anyone besides drmark have any firm birthing information?

David Ferebee
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post #912 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 05:57 AM
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Originally Posted by discodol View Post

Sorry, everyone seems to be bored waiting for their unit.
Anyone besides drmark have any firm birthing information?

+1
or waiting for more information about it smile.gif

to Mike Lang, sorry if I added to the tangents smile.gif

I do think it's an interesting new product to think about.

Steve
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post #913 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

XLR's have higher gain than RCA's. (Has to do with how common mode rejection occurs.) Plus, early in the AV7005 thread, it was commonly noted that XLR's were noisier in general than RCAs. So you could try RCAs and go from there.
XLR's are sometimes only better if you have a large external source of noise. Otherwise, RCAs can be quieter.

Ok, so I flipped the switch on my amps to High Gain and the noise got louder even though increasing the volume does not change anything, so it seems as if you are correct. I will try some RCAs tonight. I am still hoping the AV8801 will not have the same problem as it is going to cost me a couple of hundred dollars to have the XLRs reterminated to RCAs.

What causes this?
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post #914 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 07:52 AM
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Which pre/pros are you guys most interested to compare the new Marantz with in terms of 5.1 or 7.1 sound quality? (especially the high bitrate CODECs)

Cary's C12 has a great reputation for sound quality, despite other shortcomings. If the Marantz gets into that ballpark, then that would be very impressive. Beyond the C12, there is the Classe SSP-800 and others. So that's the "hi-end". What are the pre-pros at or below the price range of the AV8801 which will make for an useful comparison?

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post #915 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 08:08 AM
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^^
add an updated Denon AVP to your list & and perhaps Anthem D2 & that would really cover it smile.gif if it can compare anywhere close these at $3500 - it would be quite an achievement. that's my dream list.

on a AVP vs 8801 matchup - both by same parent company, both with similar heritage but upgraded components, both have same versions of Audyssey 32XT. an older but hi-end $7500 platform vs a new $3500 one. could be very interesting, at least to people who considered the AVP, like me redface.gif

now if you really want to go whole hog, add the Bryston & ADA smile.gif

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post #916 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 08:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by planetbrian777 View Post

Ok, so I flipped the switch on my amps to High Gain and the noise got louder even though increasing the volume does not change anything, so it seems as if you are correct. I will try some RCAs tonight. I am still hoping the AV8801 will not have the same problem as it is going to cost me a couple of hundred dollars to have the XLRs reterminated to RCAs.
What causes this?

I think we also spoke in one of the other Marantz threads, right? Are you absolutely sure it's not the amp?
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post #917 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

^^
add an updated Denon AVP to your list & and perhaps Anthem D2 & that would really cover it smile.gif if it can compare anywhere close these at $3500 - it would be quite an achievement. that's my dream list.
on a AVP vs 8801 matchup - both by same parent company, both with similar heritage but upgraded components, both have same versions of Audyssey 32XT. an older but hi-end $7500 platform vs a new $3500 one. could be very interesting, at least to people who considered the AVP, like me redface.gif
now if you really want to go whole hog, add the Bryston & ADA smile.gif

+1. I have a D2 and was interested in how the Marantz compares to the D2, Anthem 50v, and the great but aging Denon.
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post #918 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 09:03 AM
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I think we also spoke in one of the other Marantz threads, right? Are you absolutely sure it's not the amp?

I have only posted in this thread. I do not get the noise with the preamp off. Marantz support did tell me to check the output levels of the 7701 to see if the Audessey incorrectly put the levels at a abnormally high level. They also want me to check using RCAs. They think I have a defective unit one way or aonther.

My system does sound very nice and sweet though. I am patiently waiting on the AV8801 and I will be able to compare both and give some feedback to everyone. I was told that I should have the 8801 next week. I have not had a system in 6 years so I am a little rusty.

This is what I have so far to test with:

Marantz AV7701 will try AV8801 at the same time
(3) Carver Research Lightstar 2.0 amps
Oppo BDP-103
SVS PB12 Plus sub
Panasonic 60ST50 plasma
Silver Audio speaker & interconnect cables
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post #919 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 09:19 AM
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Try and keep the thread on topic, guys. Thx


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post #920 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by SeattleHTGuy View Post

Me thinks he is saying.... If'n you got XT32, use it. Why would you go back to XT, other than to do some kind of personal testing?

Right... especially the "If'n" part. You wouldn't compare an 8801 to a 2 channel stereo preamp and say, well I'm only going to use two channels from the 8801 so it's a fair comparison, right?

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post #921 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 11:25 AM
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Right... especially the "If'n" part. You wouldn't compare an 8801 to a 2 channel stereo preamp and say, well I'm only going to use two channels from the 8801 so it's a fair comparison, right?

There could be an instance where the two-channel pre-amp section of multi-function box (such as a pre-pro) in a given price range is as good as a given two channel line-stage pre-amp, but there will certainly be several examples of line stage pre-amps in that price range where all of the R&D, parts, etc resulted in great value for the sound quality. I did ask about the pre-amp in the Cary Cinema 12, for example. and, while it is supposedly excellent, it will not be as good as the SLP-98 (a dedicated pre-amp).

Comparing pre/pros seems a little more complicated. The Cary C12 may have terrific processing and an excellent DAC along with excellent fully balanced analog outputs, but it doesn't have Audyssey. If, however, the Cary can be manually configured with the use of external measurements (or passive room correction), and the result is appreciably better than what could be achieved with the 8801, then some might decide to pass on convenience.

Looking forward to the reviews!!!

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post #922 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 11:42 AM
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@AI LImited,

Uhm, yes I would compare the 8801 to a 2 channel preamp in stereo mode. There are many titles that sound best to me in 2 channel stereo. So if the 8801 in 2 channel mode isn't on par with the preamp then obviously the stereo preamp stays in the system for that reason. Then you have the "do I swap cables, run the 8801 L&R outputs through the preamp, or build a high quality switcher to change what's being fed to the amplifiers?" decision to make. Much better if the 8801 is good enough to stand alone in any mode. I have two seven foot tall racks and I'm trying to scale back. If an 8801 can replace my separate tuner and a preamp this is a good thing. So please, Joerod, ignore all the philosophical worries and tell us what you think. Many here will benefit and those who believe only in specs and DBT will escape unharmed. I wonder how many of those devoted to the DBT have anechoic chambers in which they tested their loudspeakers to figure out which one is best. Most people with a little common sense can recognize snake oil. I apologize for the oxymoron, I forgot that common sense is about as common as government intelligence...

Seriously, if the fine people on this forum report good sound and generally have good experiences with the 8801 then I will buy one, check it out, and add to the reports. What is more subjective than "good experiences?"
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post #923 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 12:34 PM
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Those concerned with 2CH SQ could always add a 2CH preamp with HT Bypass with the prepro they are using.

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post #924 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

http://youtu.be/1CkyrDIGzOE
Finally found the link. ESS is an interesting company. They started out as a PC based audio chipset and tried to move upmarket. They claimed their measurements showed they were nigh perfect but they couldn't get the hifi partners to use their chipsets. And these hifi component designers could detect the ESS stuff blind and didn't like them. So they went back to the drawing board and looked again. Turned out the measurements don't show everything and they are discovering new methods of measuring and understanding how the human hearing system works.
The point being made is that existing measurements (especially steady state measurements) don't take into account everything that we can perceive and we are only discovering how sensitive the human ear and brain can be. It's a long video but I think well worth the time.

Thanks for the link Woof, interesting stuff. Haven't had time to watch it completely but I will tonight. I wish Marantz had chosen to implement the ESS Sabre32 Reference DACs on the AV8801; the stillborn Outlaw 978 processor was designed with those. I bought a couple of cheap little PCI audio cards for some PCs about 15 years ago that used ESS audio chips, they had a great price/quality ratio.
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post #925 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 12:53 PM
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Those concerned with 2CH SQ could always add a 2CH preamp with HT Bypass with the prepro they are using.
Bill

But then they would miss out on MultEQ XT32. In that case, they'd be better off just getting an Oppo 105 and use that straight into a multichannel amp if they don't require too much gain (e.g. a small room) or into a high quality multichannel preamp. It would be cheaper than buying an AV8801.
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But then they would miss out on MultEQ XT32. In that case, they'd be better off just getting an Oppo 105 and use that straight into a multichannel amp if they don't require too much gain (e.g. a small room) or into a high quality multichannel preamp. It would be cheaper than buying an AV8801.

I understand that, I suggested it as an option. I went this route for quite awhile when I had an Onkyo 886 with plain ole' XT. I found I preferred the SQ of an analog preamp to that of the 886 with XT. But then when I bought a Denon 4311 I found I much preferred using XT32 than the analog preamp. How does one incorporate the 105 connected to a multichannel amp if one also wants a prepro with RC?

Bill


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, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #927 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Kevin C Brown View Post

XLR's have higher gain than RCA's. (Has to do with how common mode rejection occurs.) Plus, early in the AV7005 thread, it was commonly noted that XLR's were noisier in general than RCAs. So you could try RCAs and go from there.
XLR's are sometimes only better if you have a large external source of noise. Otherwise, RCAs can be quieter.

Ok, so I flipped the switch on my amps to High Gain and the noise got louder even though increasing the volume does not change anything, so it seems as if you are correct. I will try some RCAs tonight. I am still hoping the AV8801 will not have the same problem as it is going to cost me a couple of hundred dollars to have the XLRs reterminated to RCAs.
I do hope you meant to write that you'll be purchasing some RCA cables, not that you're replacing the connectors on the ends of your XLR cables. The expense should be comparable. Effectively destroying your working cables seems to me to be inappropriate. By themselves, the cables can't be the source of the noise. Unless...

I don't recall people mentioning some of the "obvious" noise sources, perhaps because everyone assumes that someone with your experience would have taken them into account. I'll mention two of them just for completeness.

Is there any chance you've moved some other cabling which now runs near, perhaps parallel to, your audio cables? (E.g, did you reroute any power cords? Power cords running next to audio cables are a major no-no. Power and audio cables should be kept well away from one another, and when they have to cross one another, they should do so at right-angles.)

Did you turn on your HVAC for the winter at the same time you upgraded your hifi equipment? (Fan motors starting to fail in the ventilation system could be generating lots of radiated electrical noise.)
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What causes this?
I'm not at all sure which "this" you mean.

Part of the frustration for those of us who have been trying to help is that our suggestions don't actually seem to be helping. I'd like to believe that there's something that we're all overlooking which would be obvious if we could only be there in person to see and hear what's going on.

Selden
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post #928 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 02:19 PM
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As far as I'm concerned, Joe Rod's review is enough for me.

Where is Joe Rod's review?

Wishing I could post in the Ultra Hi-End HT Gear ($20,000+)

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post #929 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 02:40 PM
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Where is Joe Rod's review?

+1
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post #930 of 12131 Old 12-14-2012, 02:48 PM
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Working on it. smile.gif
I am comparing the 4520, 80.3 and 5010 as well. And yes, there should not be too much difference but I plan to leave no stone unturned. And I see the controversy (as usual) continues. I am pretty used to it so my flame retardant suit is on. eek.gif I will post when it is done. If there are any comments or questions for me feel free to either email them through my website or send me a PM here. I will not be actively participating here on this thread or on avs for obvious reasons. I agree with both sides for the record. My findings are not gospel and should only be used in conjunction with other Reviews or owner's comments. What I like is what works in my home theater and there could be varying results depending on room layouts and other equipment utilized. But this is time consuming and taking the time to listen to various scenes, music and sports should not be discarded as Non Measurable. And just because I'm not writing for a major publication (I have turned down several including one mentioned here very recently) doesn't mean a thing. This is a HOBBY to me and I take helping people making purchase decisions very seriously. Now I will get back down there. Should be done this weekend sometime. As always thank you for the support and kind words. As for the "others" I guess if my Reviews and comments were truly irrelevant then you wouldn't be posting (non stop) about them so I also thank you. smile.gif
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