Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 346 - AVS Forum
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post #10351 of 12214 Old 01-30-2014, 10:06 PM
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Wow, always something new to learn. Can someone please mark my exam paper below ;-)

 

Digital audio signals have a maximum beyond which you just don't want to go...can't go because louder sounds will be clipped at the maximum.

Dolby standard is to set so that the max digital signal will output 105dB from each of your speakers.

When you run Audyssey the AVR will adjust each speaker's trim level such that it would output 105dB of sound at max digital signal

...and this will happen when you subsequently set the main volume to 0dB (80 on absolute scale) AND ...this is a tricky bit...the disk you are playing just happens to play through a point encoding the loudest possible sound on that digital recording.

 

So from a practical sense, after having run Audyssey, you have cause to worry about the loudest sounds being clipped if you are using a volume setting above 0dB (80 on absolute scale).

In reality, this clipping would not happen unless/until you pass through; e.g. a movie scene with a humungous explosion intended to be far, far louder than average for that movie.

 

The above is all about the digital max. Different discs are recorded at different "average levels", such that; e.g. a CD recorded at "average level" of -12dB will sound louder than a movie recorded at -30 dB when you use the same volume setting.  On the other hand, that CD can only encode its loudest sound at 12dB higher than average for that disk, whereas the movie can encode sounds 30dB above average for that disk (good for explosions and whispering)

 

Does this mean that the speaker trim should compensate for people like me that have quite low sensitivity speakers (and wattage also being irrelevant), such that, regardless of what speakers and amps we use, we should get the same perceived volume at the same AVR volume setting on the same disk (in same room)?

 

My brain hurts. 

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post #10352 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDOz View Post

Does this mean that the speaker trim should compensate for people like me that have quite low sensitivity speakers (and wattage also being irrelevant), such that, regardless of what speakers and amps we use, we should get the same perceived volume at the same AVR volume setting on the same disk (in same room)?

Yes. Exactly. That's what the Audyssey calibration is designed to do: when playing specific source material through your speakers in your room, a particular setting on the master volume control is supposed to produce exactly the same sound level at your primary listening position as would be heard by someone else playing that same source through their speakers in their room at their primary listening position.

One problem, though, is that now you have no way to know what fraction of the power is being used of the receiver or external amps in order to get a particular sound level, or how close they might be to clipping. Most systems can't even come close to delivering full movie reference levels (a volume setting of 80 or 0) , and trying to do so could damage the speakers.

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post #10353 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 08:16 AM
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First of all I want to thank everyone on this great forum for all the outstanding feedback and help with setup on the 8801! I have another question. I was getting some sibilance after running Audyysey, and Im using the same speakers and amps as before when I had first the AV7005 and then The Denon AVRx4000.. My question is when utilizing the Manual EQ, I noticed there is eq adjustments for all the speakers except for the sub. What I did was save the Audyysey flat settings and make adjustments from there. Does this save the Audyysey flat setting for the sub as well? I know there isn't the option to adjust the eq on the sub, but is it saved from the initial audyysey setup? What I'm trying to accomplish is to keep the basic Auddsey readings while lowering the frequencies that I've read contribute to the sibilance.(anywhere from 2-8k. Am I on the right track to accomplish this? I know there is trial and error, but as usual, getting feedback from the AVS members with more experience saves ALOT of time! Thanks again!

Utilizing the manual EQ method will defeat Audyssey's EQ, you can't have both at the same time, including the sub channel. The Graphic EQ option while more robust than standard "bass/Treble" controls is still a rudimentary approach to what all Audyssey is able to handle from a whole frequency EQ standpoint. Perhaps some type of outboard eq would be worth looking into, where you can tailor the response to your liking. Btw, do you have any room treatments?

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Originally Posted by JDOz View Post

Wow, always something new to learn. Can someone please mark my exam paper below ;-)

Digital audio signals have a maximum beyond which you just don't want to go...can't go because louder sounds will be clipped at the maximum.
Dolby standard is to set so that the max digital signal will output 105dB from each of your speakers.
When you run Audyssey the AVR will adjust each speaker's trim level such that it would output 105dB of sound at max digital signal
...and this will happen when you subsequently set the main volume to 0dB (80 on absolute scale) AND ...this is a tricky bit...the disk you are playing just happens to play through a point encoding the loudest possible sound on that digital recording.

So from a practical sense, after having run Audyssey, you have cause to worry about the loudest sounds being clipped if you are using a volume setting above 0dB (80 on absolute scale).
In reality, this clipping would not happen unless/until you pass through; e.g. a movie scene with a humungous explosion intended to be far, far louder than average for that movie.

The above is all about the digital max. Different discs are recorded at different "average levels", such that; e.g. a CD recorded at "average level" of -12dB will sound louder than a movie recorded at -30 dB when you use the same volume setting.  On the other hand, that CD can only encode its loudest sound at 12dB higher than average for that disk, whereas the movie can encode sounds 30dB above average for that disk (good for explosions and whispering)

Does this mean that the speaker trim should compensate for people like me that have quite low sensitivity speakers (and wattage also being irrelevant), such that, regardless of what speakers and amps we use, we should get the same perceived volume at the same AVR volume setting on the same disk (in same room)?

My brain hurts. 

The last part you are spot on, but the first little bit, not as much. The digital signal is passed to the AVR where it is converted to analog before being sent out to your amplification stage, at the amplification stage is where the volume level comes into play. The digital signal encodes the dynamics needed of the track, and may specify "This peak should be 105dB" but that is only assuming you are listening AT reference and have a system that is accurately calibrated that way. If you want to crank it past that, assuming you have the proper amplification, speakers that can take it, and really want to pound your ear drums for a bit, then you are fine. There are times I have gone to +10 and above but it is briefly and usually only for show, no one should ever listen sustained that loud.

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post #10354 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDOz View Post
 

 

 

Does this mean that the speaker trim should compensate for people like me that have quite low sensitivity speakers (and wattage also being irrelevant), such that, regardless of what speakers and amps we use, we should get the same perceived volume at the same AVR volume setting on the same disk (in same room)?

 

 

 

What Selden said, but with the addition that Audyssey *attempts* to calibrate the system to Reference. The system has to be capable of playing at Reference, cleanly, without clipping.

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post #10355 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post


One problem, though, is that now you have no way to know what fraction of the power is being used of the receiver or external amps in order to get a particular sound level, or how close they might be to clipping. Most systems can't even come close to delivering full movie reference levels (a volume setting of 80 or 0) , and trying to do so could damage the speakers.

I use a positive scale but I have not found a movie that I would listen to above 65. Watching a movie at 80 would be painful.
Since everyone's room/speakers/amps are different, I cannot see how the gain (or attenuation) has any meaning.

From this article on THX Reference level:

Quote:
Reference level for all channels except low frequency effects is calibrated by adjusting the audio chain such that a pink noise signal recorded at -20dB relative to full scale (0dB) creates 85dB sound pressure level as measured with a C weighted SPL meter at the seating locations. Volume levels are adjusted for each channel individually until they read 85dB. The master volume control setting associated with this playback level is then set to a nominal 0dB, or reference level. The history behind this is that sound engineers and producers generally work so that the average recording level for dialog in movie soundtrack is -20dB. This allows for 20dB of dynamic range in the soundtrack. The low frequency effects channel is calibrated higher, so that a -20dB signal reaches 95dBC at the seating locations.

You could use a SPL with Pink noise and set the volume at which the pink noise hits 85 DB.
That is your reference level. I'll have to try that, but I think I will still find the dialog is too loud.


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post #10356 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 03:32 PM
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I bought the 8801 a few weeks ago and I am thrilled with it. Other than the fact that I used an underpowered amp to run my front wides and front heights at first, it has been smooth sailing. I do have a question to those more experienced than I with setting this up and I have searched to no avail.

I want to run my subs a little hotter than what the Audyssey has them set at. Can I change the levels within the 8801 without it turning off Audyssey? I am sure this is probably contained in this monster thread(and I missed it) and I also have read the Audyssey set up thread FAQs also so I think I can do this but I just wanted to verify. Thanks.
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post #10357 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nixmikspop View Post

I bought the 8801 a few weeks ago and I am thrilled with it. Other than the fact that I used an underpowered amp to run my front wides and front heights at first, it has been smooth sailing. I do have a question to those more experienced than I with setting this up and I have searched to no avail.

I want to run my subs a little hotter than what the Audyssey has them set at. Can I change the levels within the 8801 without it turning off Audyssey? I am sure this is probably contained in this monster thread(and I missed it) and I also have read the Audyssey set up thread FAQs also so I think I can do this but I just wanted to verify. Thanks.

Sure you can ! go into the audio menu and under subwoofer you can bump it up as much as you like , just remember the calibrated level as a point of reference. You can also try DEQ which indeed bumps the sub and surrounds, try a RLO(reference level offset) at 0 for movies and 5,10 and so on for all else to see what you like wink.gif

And welcome to the owners club smile.gif
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post #10358 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 03:44 PM
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Yup... go into the "manual setup" and adjust away... Audyssey will still work with the new measurements.
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post #10359 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 03:45 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Sure you can ! go into the audio menu and under subwoofer you can bump it up as much as you like , just remember the calibrated level as a point of reference. You can also try DEQ which indeed bumps the sub and surrounds, try a RLO(reference level offset) at 0 for movies and 5,10 and so on for all else to see what you like wink.gif

And welcome to the owners club smile.gif

Thanks Audiofan1 and Baranowski.. Greatly appreciated. Going to go try that right now. I am thrilled to be a part of this owners club. One of the best purchases I have ever made for my set up.
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post #10360 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Utilizing the manual EQ method will defeat Audyssey's EQ, you can't have both at the same time, including the sub channel. The Graphic EQ option while more robust than standard "bass/Treble" controls is still a rudimentary approach to what all Audyssey is able to handle from a whole frequency EQ standpoint. Perhaps some type of outboard eq would be worth looking into, where you can tailor the response to your liking. Btw, do you have any room treatments?
The last part you are spot on, but the first little bit, not as much. The digital signal is passed to the AVR where it is converted to analog before being sent out to your amplification stage, at the amplification stage is where the volume level comes into play. The digital signal encodes the dynamics needed of the track, and may specify "This peak should be 105dB" but that is only assuming you are listening AT reference and have a system that is accurately calibrated that way. If you want to crank it past that, assuming you have the proper amplification, speakers that can take it, and really want to pound your ear drums for a bit, then you are fine. There are times I have gone to +10 and above but it is briefly and usually only for show, no one should ever listen sustained that loud.
No I don't have any room treatments, but my Previous Proocessor/Receivers the Marantz 7005 and the Denon AVRx4000(preamp only) never had the sibilance issue after running audyssey. I was under the impression that the "Copy Audyssey flat" option in the manual eq menu would copy those settings to use as a starting point to tweak what Audyssey did in the inititial calibration?? confused.gif
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post #10361 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 04:59 PM
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Not that important, but since I don't like to have my tv on all the time while Pandora is playing in the background, is there a way to "thumbs up" or, heaven forbid, "thumbs down" a song with the 8801's remote (in one keystroke)? I know I can arrow over and enter, but then I'd have to remember if I was on up or down before I did it. Hmmmm, I have a hard time remembering what day it is let along where the cursor was last. First world problems.... cool.gif

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post #10362 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 06:13 PM
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Play pandora from your phone or iPad using airplay
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post #10363 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 06:26 PM
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If you thumbs down one by accident, you can log online & fix that.

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post #10364 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by comfynumb View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

If you set the Oppo for LPCM then it decodes the True-HD signal into PCM and sends that to the AV8801.
Thus, you will never see True-HD on the AV8801 because it has no idea.

They should sound the same, however, I send bitstream since it is not subject to potential re-clocking / jitter, if you believe in that sort of thing smile.gif

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Thanks Rich I didn't know that. Im a show me guy so I prefer to see it smile.gif

Count me in the camp "to show me guy"

We will never find all the mistake we do in life without learning from others!

Now, back to the learning channel.

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post #10365 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Norseman View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdfein View Post

Silly question. What volume setting on the 8801 do most of you listen at?
For Blu-ray movies, usually at -12db (or so).
For cable TV sources usually at -42db (or so).

Sometimes discs (Blu-ray, CDs, etc.) are mastered at very different levels though, so those could be above or below the above levels...

Also

-12db for blu-ray

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post #10366 of 12214 Old 01-31-2014, 07:50 PM
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Well, it is now the weekend of the big Marantz 8801 workout..... How should I set the system up to best enjoy the Seahawks do what they do? LOB!!!!!!!!

Going to put a brand new bulb in the Sony 95es tomorrow. Go Hawks....................................................

Finally, it is actually sort of pleasant for the land of latte drinking, pacifists to be represented by young, somewhat mouthy, athletes. We are not all one Birkenstock walking monolithic group up here.
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post #10367 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 06:41 AM
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Except the ones above $7,500 wink.gif

I only post on forums when someone makes a factual error about my work.

The chart in my article shows AVRs and Pre/Pros model numbers in green that use multiple Small Scale Integrated (SSI) parts for analog signal switching and digital electronic volume control function. The lowest priced unit is an AVR at $1800.

www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles-and-editorials/technical-articles-and-editorials/options-by-supplier-and-price/page-9-the-right-side-of-the-chart-more-details-about-the-avrs-and-pre-pros.html

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post #10368 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darich3 View Post

I only post on forums when someone makes a factual error about my work.

The chart in my article shows AVRs and Pre/Pros model numbers in green that use multiple Small Scale Integrated (SSI) parts for analog signal switching and digital electronic volume control function. The lowest priced unit is an AVR at $1800.

www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles-and-editorials/technical-articles-and-editorials/options-by-supplier-and-price/page-9-the-right-side-of-the-chart-more-details-about-the-avrs-and-pre-pros.html

David Rich



That was a tongue in cheek comment but if I posted anything that wasn't true I withdraw it and won't post about this further smile.gif
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post #10369 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by darich3 View Post

I only post on forums when someone makes a factual error about my work.

The chart in my article shows AVRs and Pre/Pros model numbers in green that use multiple Small Scale Integrated (SSI) parts for analog signal switching and digital electronic volume control function. The lowest priced unit is an AVR at $1800.

www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles-and-editorials/technical-articles-and-editorials/options-by-supplier-and-price/page-9-the-right-side-of-the-chart-more-details-about-the-avrs-and-pre-pros.html

David Rich

Just to clarify, your article lists the 8801 as using the PCM-1796 (24/192kHz) DAC; however, the service manual lists the PCM-1795 (32/192kHz) DAC.

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post #10370 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 03:34 PM
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Play pandora from your phone or iPad using airplay

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Originally Posted by SanchoPanza View Post

If you thumbs down one by accident, you can log online & fix that.

Thanks...Never even thought about it. I don't have pandora anywhere else. I'm just trying it out after realizing on how much new music even an old guy like me likes after watching the Grammys. I assume the quality can't get worse than the mp3 that comes via Pandora anyway...:roll eyes:


Ok -- just had an odd thing happen. While listening directly via the 'network' button on the 8801, no ads from Pandora. Via my iPad I'm getting ads. Same log in info.

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post #10371 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 04:29 PM
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Correct. You will only receive minimal ads when using the 8801, although if you upgrade to Pandora One for only $40/yr you can support the company as well and not get any ads on either device. smile.gif

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post #10372 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 08:10 PM
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Is the 8801 being discounted anywhere yet?
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post #10373 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darich3 View Post

I only post on forums when someone makes a factual error about my work.

The chart in my article shows AVRs and Pre/Pros model numbers in green that use multiple Small Scale Integrated (SSI) parts for analog signal switching and digital electronic volume control function. The lowest priced unit is an AVR at $1800.

www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles-and-editorials/technical-articles-and-editorials/options-by-supplier-and-price/page-9-the-right-side-of-the-chart-more-details-about-the-avrs-and-pre-pros.html

David Rich

Thanks for the informative article, learned quite a bit actually. I guess my final conclusion from this article is that a stereo dedicated pre-amp is likely to be superior to just about any avr on the market except maybe a theta casablanca or datasat for 2 channel music. I find the noise/hiss floor exceptionally poor for the marantz 8801 for my high sensitivity speakers.

Based on the advice of some, I have used xlr -20db pads in-line in order to cut the hiss down on my 107db speakers. Am i doing anything particularly negative to the signal? Its hard to do an A/B to be sure.

The new pre-amp/amp combo from Avantgarde Acoustics is sick expensive but very highly regarded by the few places that reviewed them. I was considering something along these lines for stereo listening and maybe use an XLR switch for the mains amplifier so i can still use the Marantz. I think i would lose 2ch bass management then however...

Blazar!
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post #10374 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by cougar75 View Post

Is the 8801 being discounted anywhere yet?
If you haven't PM'd jdsmoothie here at AVScience you really really should.
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post #10375 of 12214 Old 02-01-2014, 11:49 PM
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Is the Dialog Enhancement designed to be temporary? If turn it on and even briefly switch inputs, then it's turned off. Any suggestions?

DALI Epicon 2 front speakers; DALI Epicon Vokal center speaker; Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000 surrounds; SVS SB 13 Ultra subwoofer; Marantz AV 8801 pre/pro; Parasound Halo A51 power amp; Esoteric K-03 SACD player; Oppo BDP 105 SACD/Blu-ray player; Sennheiser HD 800 headphones; Woo Audio WA6 headphone amp.
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post #10376 of 12214 Old 02-02-2014, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Mine has worked since day one , before using it ( dialog enhancement) press the movie button to be sure its in movie mode ( DTS, DD or sacd) and then try it and be sure you use the 8801 remote for this and press the set up button and make your selection then the enter button and then the Back button to back out. Also do you guys with the problem Bitsetream or use LPCM not saying that it, but checking all possibilities, but do try the above with the 8801's remote wink.gif

Try this!
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post #10377 of 12214 Old 02-02-2014, 03:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Just to clarify, your article lists the 8801 as using the PCM-1796 (24/192kHz) DAC; however, the service manual lists the PCM-1795 (32/192kHz) DAC.

Yes I should have listed the PCM-1795 but in the same row as the PCM-1796. They have identical specifications. The 32 bit input word makes no difference. I explain this in a different section of the article on effective bits:

www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles-and-editorials/technical-articles-and-editorials/options-by-supplier-and-price/page-10-the-concept-of-effective-bits.html

You will see other rows have multiple DACs listed, with the same performance, from one IC producer. The table would have become too long if I had just one DAC listed in each row.
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post #10378 of 12214 Old 02-02-2014, 08:32 AM
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The difference between a 32 bit and a 24 bit DAC may or may not be audible. We are getting into such high end components these days and I welcome such technology in the Marantz 8801, no longer is high end available to just the ones that can afford the ultra expensive AVR or AVP. Does it have to do with the number of bits in the DAC or a compilation of many different parts? I'm sure it's the latter, but I doubt anyone who owns one would want anything changed. I'm not saying the 8801 is as good as a Theta or Datasat or the other ultra high end gear just that's at it's price point we have a very good processor.
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post #10379 of 12214 Old 02-02-2014, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Try this!

Thanks--that worked!

DALI Epicon 2 front speakers; DALI Epicon Vokal center speaker; Definitive Technology ProMonitor 1000 surrounds; SVS SB 13 Ultra subwoofer; Marantz AV 8801 pre/pro; Parasound Halo A51 power amp; Esoteric K-03 SACD player; Oppo BDP 105 SACD/Blu-ray player; Sennheiser HD 800 headphones; Woo Audio WA6 headphone amp.
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post #10380 of 12214 Old 02-02-2014, 11:50 AM
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A great suggestion that I learned from a member here from secrets of hifi:

Zero gain the main speakers and adjust the rest of the speakers accordingly relatively speaking to get the best 2 channel dynamic range possible output possible. Do this after audyssey has done its thing and set the relative volumes for you.

After adjustments the overall quality is improved subjectively with my high sensitivity speakers.

Gonna do another frequency sweep today to be sure mains response is still accurately linear at my usual listening position

Blazar!
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