Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 370 - AVS Forum

AVS Forum > Audio > Receivers, Amps, and Processors > Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread

Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Mad Norseman's Avatar Mad Norseman
05:13 PM Liked: 100
post #11071 of 12348
03-25-2014 | Posts: 473
Joined: Feb 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


II concur with you completely that Audyssey is like listening to your speakers with a trash bag over top of them. The soundstage for me would completely collapse, and the overall tonality of my mains would just disappear leaving a very sterile and uninviting sound. Hit bypass and BOOM, I was rocking and rolling again.
Where exactly are you finding this 'bypass' to 'hit'?
Can't see any such thing on the remote (wish it was there so we could toggle Audyssey on and off easily for quick comparison).
Or do we have to wade into the menu and drill down to select 'Audyssey 'off'? (don't wanna have to do that...).
Maybe I'm just too dense to see it? rolleyes.gif
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio
05:20 PM Liked: 1045
post #11072 of 12348
03-25-2014 | Posts: 8,202
Joined: Dec 2010
The selection is under the "audio" submenu, and gives you the options of: Audyssey/Audyssey Bypass L/R/Audyssey Flat/Graphic/Audyssey Off. The bypass turns all EQ off the mains and leaves all other speakers and sub's EQ intact. If you want to switch between Audyssey on and off real time during 2 channel listening, just get your music mode button to stereo (which will leave Aud engaged assuming it already is) and then hit the "Direct" button to the right of it to disengage audyssey and listen to straight en-eq'd response.
etc6849's Avatar etc6849
06:00 PM Liked: 63
post #11073 of 12348
03-25-2014 | Posts: 633
Joined: Dec 2006
Yeah, the hiss is annoying, but they simply designed the unit for normal speakers and for an amp with a higher voltage input sensitivity than what you or I are running. Of course with proper (e.g. padded so audyssey sets mains level near 0) padding, the hiss should disappear. BTW, you must have some awesome horn speakers too?

For Audyssey, I agree, but the Audyssey Pro kit should provide you with what you seek as far as tweak-ability, more accurate mic, etc... Since the mic included is rated for +/-2dB, I'm skeptical if the $500 for the kit plus the license is worth it, but maybe some of you could hear an improvement. I'm not sure I could, but I hear a big difference between Audyssey versus pure audio. The Audyssey flat curve does an outstanding job on my setup.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

In summary:
The marantz does a lot for the price, especially if you want 11.1 processing. Direct mode or whatever is totally inaudible "improvement". The marantz introduces too much hiss in high sensitivity speakers due to
Its output stage limitations. Audyssey is ok but more and more folks are wanting more control of the room correction process and want to see what the "corrected" curves have achieved. Apple airplay doesn't work with some routers with IPv6 which is a major problem that needs to be fixed by Apple. I am still pissed that nothing I do with opening ports has solved this problem. Acoustically the marantz sounds quite good and its hard to complain much except for my gripe about hiss which requires -20db XLR pads in-like for my speakers. The other issue for me is that you cant put a delay in the 12 volt trigger events and that there arent more of them. They also need discreet codes for specific audio soundfield modes that can be accessed by home automation setups.

I think i will stick with the marantz until 11.x+ channel processor with dolby atmos emerges. I am also curious what the next generation of audyssey will do in order to combat Dirac and Trinnov.

etc6849's Avatar etc6849
06:02 PM Liked: 63
post #11074 of 12348
03-25-2014 | Posts: 633
Joined: Dec 2006
Why doesn't Marantz turn off the radio tuners when they're not in use?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Signal source crosstalk.

etc6849's Avatar etc6849
06:09 PM Liked: 63
post #11075 of 12348
03-25-2014 | Posts: 633
Joined: Dec 2006
Are those Danley horns for the mains? How do they compare to other speakers you've tried? I really want to try bigger horns, but don't have the space right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

My mains are incredible on their own, and need nothing to impress by way of DSP

Zakblue's Avatar Zakblue
11:36 PM Liked: 12
post #11076 of 12348
03-25-2014 | Posts: 5
Joined: Mar 2014

Hi Everyone,

 

Wow this is my first post and it's going to start with a rant.

I just purchased one of these AV8801 units and i've been using it pretty thoroughly over the last 2 weeks.

I think i've exhausted every setting I can in 5.1

 

My Setup:

 

Kef R500 mains

1 Q300 as centre and LR rears

SVS PB-12 NSD Sub.

 

I've just 'upgraded' to this from using the preamp section of a Pioneer LX-85 receiver.

I thought I would experience a huge upgrade when I went to this unit but I was wrong.

 

Things I like:

2 channel music in stereo 'Pure Direct' mode sounds great (not what I bought it for)

Has 4k pass through and xlr out.

 

Things I dislike:

Completely underwhelming surround/ 5.1 performance.

(Let me elaborate)

 

I used to run the LX 85 in Pure Direct mode with my old setup and found that it sounded the best like that.

I set all the crossovers to 80hz and let the sub take care of the rest.

Yes it wasn't as 'clear' with dialogue as the 8801 but apart from that everything else sounded better.

 

I just can't get over how the sub barely gets utilized in 5.1 unless it's in an Audyssey mode.

Audyssey modes put seriously at least +8db to the sub and devastatingly low extension, but I can't stand

how the mix ends up. It always is way to hot in the rear channels. I don't want to sit and watch a movie and

listen to the rears the whole time. It also mixes movie soundtracks in a funny way that (to me) sounds 

truncated and washy.

 

Take for example the end of Gravity on blu ray. Incredible sound design in that movie. Finishes with a big triumphant

orchestral score.

On the Pioneer in Pure Direct the rears took a back seat and I got a huge wall of sound at the start of the credits from

the fronts - exhilarating!

On the 8801 (audyssey on) I get the rears doing nearly all of the work and I literally have to walk up to the fronts and put my ears

next to them to hear sound. The soundstage is kindof lacking a middle and uneven. Lots of percussive sounds and

the strums of the guitar are high in the mix.

 

This brings me to the 2nd part of my rant.

So I read that when you engage the 'Pure Direct' mode on the 8801 suddenly the front speakers are set to large.

Why?? I do not understand this at all.

Sure enough I switch to Pure Direct and I miss all of my low register subwoofer notes and hear boomyness of the mains

trying to be a sub woofer.

 

/rant over

 

Just to be clear I've got all of my speakers set to 'small' and crossover at 80hz. Sub coming in at 80hz also and just set to

LFE. I haven't checked the current firmware, maybe some of these issues were addressed at some stage...?


erhurd's Avatar erhurd
12:22 AM Liked: 41
post #11077 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 481
Joined: May 2008
Why are you listening to a Blu -ray movie in Pure Direct instead of its native sound (preferably DTS-HD MA)?
audiofan1's Avatar audiofan1
01:02 AM Liked: 547
post #11078 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 3,302
Joined: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakblue View Post

Hi Everyone,

Wow this is my first post and it's going to start with a rant.
I just purchased one of these AV8801 units and i've been using it pretty thoroughly over the last 2 weeks.
I think i've exhausted every setting I can in 5.1

My Setup:

Kef R500 mains
1 Q300 as centre and LR rears
SVS PB-12 NSD Sub.

I've just 'upgraded' to this from using the preamp section of a Pioneer LX-85 receiver.
I thought I would experience a huge upgrade when I went to this unit but I was wrong.

Things I like:
2 channel music in stereo 'Pure Direct' mode sounds great (not what I bought it for)
Has 4k pass through and xlr out.

Things I dislike:
Completely underwhelming surround/ 5.1 performance.
(Let me elaborate)

I used to run the LX 85 in Pure Direct mode with my old setup and found that it sounded the best like that.
I set all the crossovers to 80hz and let the sub take care of the rest.
Yes it wasn't as 'clear' with dialogue as the 8801 but apart from that everything else sounded better.

I just can't get over how the sub barely gets utilized in 5.1 unless it's in an Audyssey mode.
Audyssey modes put seriously at least +8db to the sub and devastatingly low extension, but I can't stand
how the mix ends up. It always is way to hot in the rear channels. I don't want to sit and watch a movie and
listen to the rears the whole time. It also mixes movie soundtracks in a funny way that (to me) sounds 
truncated and washy.

Take for example the end of Gravity on blu ray. Incredible sound design in that movie. Finishes with a big triumphant
orchestral score.
On the Pioneer in Pure Direct the rears took a back seat and I got a huge wall of sound at the start of the credits from
the fronts - exhilarating!
On the 8801 (audyssey on) I get the rears doing nearly all of the work and I literally have to walk up to the fronts and put my ears
next to them to hear sound. The soundstage is kindof lacking a middle and uneven. Lots of percussive sounds and
the strums of the guitar are high in the mix.

This brings me to the 2nd part of my rant.
So I read that when you engage the 'Pure Direct' mode on the 8801 suddenly the front speakers are set to large.
Why?? I do not understand this at all.
Sure enough I switch to Pure Direct and I miss all of my low register subwoofer notes and hear boomyness of the mains
trying to be a sub woofer.

/rant over

Just to be clear I've got all of my speakers set to 'small' and crossover at 80hz. Sub coming in at 80hz also and just set to
LFE. I haven't checked the current firmware, maybe some of these issues were addressed at some stage...?

Welcome to the club smile.gif Did you try turning Dynamic Eq off? you may when this is done go in and bump the sub 3-6 db to restore the bass and have less surround impact. Also if you have an spl meter confirm your levels.
The 8801 is capable of a bubble of immersion and if your surrounds are overwhelming , just lower them to your taste if the above doesn't workout, that should restore a balance your use to wink.gif
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
05:42 AM Liked: 2306
post #11079 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 19,828
Joined: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakblue View Post
 

 

Just to be clear I've got all of my speakers set to 'small' and crossover at 80hz. Sub coming in at 80hz also and just set to

LFE. I haven't checked the current firmware, maybe some of these issues were addressed at some stage...?

 

Pure Direct bypasses bass management - that is how it is designed to work.

 

WRT to your Audyssey issues:

 

Click Here To Follow Our 'Audyssey 101' For First Time Audyssey Users.


blazar's Avatar blazar
06:38 AM Liked: 284
post #11080 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 2,399
Joined: Oct 2004
Honestly if you have great subs, a 2.x system
Is the way to go. "2 channel pure" makes no acoustic sense.
Zakblue's Avatar Zakblue
06:39 AM Liked: 12
post #11081 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 5
Joined: Mar 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post


Welcome to the club smile.gif Did you try turning Dynamic Eq off? you may when this is done go in and bump the sub 3-6 db to restore the bass and have less surround impact. Also if you have an spl meter confirm your levels.
The 8801 is capable of a bubble of immersion and if your surrounds are overwhelming , just lower them to your taste if the above doesn't workout, that should restore a balance your use to wink.gif

Thanks audiofan1. I've calmed down a bit. I did, like many here, pay a considerable amount for this pre so I wasn't expecting such a fiddly setup!

After an hr or two of manual setup i've actually got it sounding great I think. I had to bump the sub up considerably and lower volumes in the rear channels.

I totally ditched Audyseey and turned it off for now and running a setting that i think is called 'auto' from the 'pure' button.

This sounds much better to my ears than the Audyssey setups that i've tried so far. Much clearer and less 'tampered with'.

Also can't hear a huge difference from when I set the mains to large and small now.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

 

Pure Direct bypasses bass management - that is how it is designed to work.

 

WRT to your Audyssey issues:

 

Click Here To Follow Our 'Audyssey 101' For First Time Audyssey Users.


Wow. Quite a read! Thanks i'll check that out when it's not way past my bedtime. I was just used to the LX 85 not

changing the speakers from small to large when Pure Direct is engaged.


Zakblue's Avatar Zakblue
06:44 AM Liked: 12
post #11082 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 5
Joined: Mar 2014
Quote:
Originally Posted by erhurd View Post

Why are you listening to a Blu -ray movie in Pure Direct instead of its native sound (preferably DTS-HD MA)?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Honestly if you have great subs, a 2.x system
Is the way to go. "2 channel pure" makes no acoustic sense.

I'm not sure if you are both replying to me but what I meant was hitting the 'Pure Direct' button still keeps the bitstreamed/pcm

audio in 5.1 if it's being sent that way. I wasn't implying that I prefer the sound of stereo over surround etc.


RichB's Avatar RichB
07:35 AM Liked: 277
post #11083 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 8,905
Joined: Nov 1999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakblue View Post

Just to be clear I've got all of my speakers set to 'small' and crossover at 80hz. Sub coming in at 80hz also and just set to
LFE. I haven't checked the current firmware, maybe some of these issues were addressed at some stage...?

The only way to use your subs in Pure Direct mode is to set the Subwoofer to LFE+MAIN which still sends the bass content to the mains (ignoring your crossover settings) and also sends the bass to your subwoofer.

- Rich
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio
08:49 AM Liked: 1045
post #11084 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 8,202
Joined: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by etc6849 View Post

Are those Danley horns for the mains? How do they compare to other speakers you've tried? I really want to try bigger horns, but don't have the space right now.

They are smile.gif The sh50's to be exact. They are the most impressive speaker I have ever heard without a doubt. The synergy concept is simply fantastic.
blazar's Avatar blazar
11:39 AM Liked: 284
post #11085 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 2,399
Joined: Oct 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

They are smile.gif The sh50's to be exact. They are the most impressive speaker I have ever heard without a doubt. The synergy concept is simply fantastic.

What is the cost of the suitable surround speakers that danley makes? Consider a 20 channel system approximately.
beastaudio's Avatar beastaudio
12:45 PM Liked: 1045
post #11086 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 8,202
Joined: Dec 2010
Surrounds would be good for the sh100's or sh micro's. Not positive on the cost, but they aint cheap. Right now I am rocking beyma 8" coaxials for surrounds and they keep up quite well. I actually ran them full range as mains for a bit and they really really impressed me on their capabilities.
exm's Avatar exm
05:39 PM Liked: 60
post #11087 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 1,325
Joined: Aug 2001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakblue View Post

Thanks audiofan1. I've calmed down a bit. I did, like many here, pay a considerable amount for this pre so I wasn't expecting such a fiddly setup!
After an hr or two of manual setup i've actually got it sounding great I think. I had to bump the sub up considerably and lower volumes in the rear channels.
I totally ditched Audyseey and turned it off for now and running a setting that i think is called 'auto' from the 'pure' button.
This sounds much better to my ears than the Audyssey setups that i've tried so far. Much clearer and less 'tampered with'.
Also can't hear a huge difference from when I set the mains to large and small now.

Wow. Quite a read! Thanks i'll check that out when it's not way past my bedtime. I was just used to the LX 85 not
changing the speakers from small to large when Pure Direct is engaged.

Looks like you're undoing a lot of things that make the AV8801 special. Try this (worked for me):
- Rerun Audyssey
- When completed, go into your settings. Adjust your speaker crossovers
- I bumped up both my subs by +7.5db. I noticed that Audyssey adjusted them app -10db for some reason
- Turn on Dynamic EQ
- If you're running 5.1, you have plenty of surround options. Play around with the various Dolby and DTS settings

Good luck.
Gunner969's Avatar Gunner969
06:52 PM Liked: 20
post #11088 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 143
Joined: Nov 2008
I love the way Audyssey sets up my speakers and the various modes it provides. In fact, if Audyssey was a girl, I'd consider marrying her. smile.gif
bweissman's Avatar bweissman
08:08 PM Liked: 41
post #11089 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 802
Joined: Sep 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunner969 View Post

I love the way Audyssey sets up my speakers and the various modes it provides. In fact, if Audyssey was a girl, I'd consider marrying her. smile.gif


Unfortunately, Audyssey looks like this:

 

 


cp1966's Avatar cp1966
08:50 PM Liked: 11
post #11090 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 531
Joined: Mar 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zakblue View Post

Hi Everyone,

Wow this is my first post and it's going to start with a rant.
I just purchased one of these AV8801 units and i've been using it pretty thoroughly over the last 2 weeks.
I think i've exhausted every setting I can in 5.1

My Setup:

Kef R500 mains
1 Q300 as centre and LR rears
SVS PB-12 NSD Sub.

I've just 'upgraded' to this from using the preamp section of a Pioneer LX-85 receiver.
I thought I would experience a huge upgrade when I went to this unit but I was wrong.

Things I like:
2 channel music in stereo 'Pure Direct' mode sounds great (not what I bought it for)
Has 4k pass through and xlr out.

Things I dislike:
Completely underwhelming surround/ 5.1 performance.
(Let me elaborate)

I used to run the LX 85 in Pure Direct mode with my old setup and found that it sounded the best like that.
I set all the crossovers to 80hz and let the sub take care of the rest.
Yes it wasn't as 'clear' with dialogue as the 8801 but apart from that everything else sounded better.

I just can't get over how the sub barely gets utilized in 5.1 unless it's in an Audyssey mode.
Audyssey modes put seriously at least +8db to the sub and devastatingly low extension, but I can't stand
how the mix ends up. It always is way to hot in the rear channels. I don't want to sit and watch a movie and
listen to the rears the whole time. It also mixes movie soundtracks in a funny way that (to me) sounds 
truncated and washy.

Take for example the end of Gravity on blu ray. Incredible sound design in that movie. Finishes with a big triumphant
orchestral score.
On the Pioneer in Pure Direct the rears took a back seat and I got a huge wall of sound at the start of the credits from
the fronts - exhilarating!
On the 8801 (audyssey on) I get the rears doing nearly all of the work and I literally have to walk up to the fronts and put my ears
next to them to hear sound. The soundstage is kindof lacking a middle and uneven. Lots of percussive sounds and
the strums of the guitar are high in the mix.

This brings me to the 2nd part of my rant.
So I read that when you engage the 'Pure Direct' mode on the 8801 suddenly the front speakers are set to large.
Why?? I do not understand this at all.
Sure enough I switch to Pure Direct and I miss all of my low register subwoofer notes and hear boomyness of the mains
trying to be a sub woofer.

/rant over

Just to be clear I've got all of my speakers set to 'small' and crossover at 80hz. Sub coming in at 80hz also and just set to
LFE. I haven't checked the current firmware, maybe some of these issues were addressed at some stage...?




My impression is the opposite; music not so good, movies AWESOME!

It almost sounds as if you had your speakers connected wrong to the amp, or the line outs from the Marantz to the amp wrong (hearing most of the movie from your surrounds and almost nothing from the mains).

Anyway, I say we are opposite because with Audyssey activated, movies sound superb and breathtaking. So do music concerts (blu rays) such as John Mayer.

Music however, the sound is good, but not mind blowing. I prefer an old Denon receiver driving my Klipsch Kg4s.

I tried using Audyssey bypass L/R while listening to a CD and I noticed no difference. The sub also was not going on and I could not figure out how to get it to go on. The bass was minimal and the mids sounded empty. Just not much oomph, and my system has oomph!

Any suggestions anyone?

My setup; 8801, Outlaw 200 WPC amp for all 7 speakers, Klipsch RF7 mains (Dean G modded), RC7 Centre (DeanG modded), RS7 surrounds, CDT5800C 8" ceiling for rear surrounds, and an Outlaw LFM EX sub.
blazar's Avatar blazar
09:28 PM Liked: 284
post #11091 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 2,399
Joined: Oct 2004
For any gripes I have about the 8801, one of those is NOT movie playback with Audyssey correction and DTS-NEO-X.

Movie playback is straight up awesome and I agree with Kal Rubinson that this is about as good as it gets right now at this price. The next price point you may have to hit for a "better" experience with 11 channel NEO X is a Datasat product. The price difference is truly logarithmic and basically for the price-no-object crowd.

Classe and other brands don't do 11.x and therefore are non-starters in my setup.

I won't vouch for the Datasat since I haven't heard it in my setup but I wouldn't doubt for a second the universally rave reviews on their unit.


At this point however: I suggest everyone quell their upgraditis for this year since HDMI 2.0 and Dolby Atmos / Auro3D are just around the corner and many brands will likely respond with upgraded models.

If they corrected the gripes I have had with the 8801's output chips, I think the next generation has the potential to be a fantastic product...

On a separate note: the "pure direct" mode is pure nonsense. This mode concedes that they didn't use the best DAC possible. If anyone from marantz is listening: next time make the 2 channel DAC and playback truly best of class so you wouldn't need 2 channel analog inputs. If people must feel the need to use 2 channel inputs and PURE DIRECT: Marantz has not done their job building a "reference flagship".

I want a pre-pro that is engineered to handle 110db sensitivity speakers with flying colors. Charge another $500 and get it right and even charge me more if you have to.
Gunner969's Avatar Gunner969
10:48 PM Liked: 20
post #11092 of 12348
03-26-2014 | Posts: 143
Joined: Nov 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by bweissman View Post


Unfortunately, Audyssey looks like this:

377999_229523717119396_615707418_s.jpg 

I know... What a turn off.
Selden Ball's Avatar Selden Ball
06:16 AM Liked: 529
post #11093 of 12348
03-27-2014 | Posts: 7,805
Joined: Jan 2001
blazar,

Have you measured any difference in the audio when "Pure" is enabled?

Supposedly it's there to decrease crosstalk from video to audio digital and analog circuits, which theoretically would be present regardless of the quality of the DAC design. All wires and circuit-board traces act as antennas, both broadcasting and receiving electromagnetic signals. The fewer circuits are on, the less noise is being broadcast, and thus the less is there to be picked up.

I suspect it's there more for its placebo effect, not that it actually improves the audio in any audible way. I've seen one report of a difference, but it wasn't accompanied by any graphs. The Pure option has been available in Marantz equipment for at least 15 years, probably more.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
08:32 AM Liked: 2306
post #11094 of 12348
03-27-2014 | Posts: 19,828
Joined: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

blazar,

Have you measured any difference in the audio when "Pure" is enabled?

Supposedly it's there to decrease crosstalk from video to audio digital and analog circuits, which theoretically would be present regardless of the quality of the DAC design. All wires and circuit-board traces act as antennas, both broadcasting and receiving electromagnetic signals. The fewer circuits are on, the less noise is being broadcast, and thus the less is there to be picked up.

I suspect it's there more for its placebo effect, not that it actually improves the audio in any audible way. I've seen one report of a difference, but it wasn't accompanied by any graphs. The Pure option has been available in Marantz equipment for at least 15 years, probably more.

 

I'd say there is a huge difference... for marketing. ;) I'd like to see the measurements too but I'd bet that 'Pure' has been added to these units as a sop to 'audiophiles' who genuinely believe that manufacturers of modern AVRs can't run audio and video side by side without them interfering with one another. The manufacturers will know that the 'Pure' mode is hooey, but if they don't offer it, sales suffer among the 'audiophile' crowd. Same reasoning as to why competent speaker designers and engineers add 'biamping' terminals to speakers.


RichB's Avatar RichB
08:49 AM Liked: 277
post #11095 of 12348
03-27-2014 | Posts: 8,905
Joined: Nov 1999
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd say there is a huge difference... for marketing. wink.gif I'd like to see the measurements too but I'd bet that 'Pure' has been added to these units as a sop to 'audiophiles' who genuinely believe that manufacturers of modern AVRs can't run audio and video side by side without them interfering with one another. The manufacturers will know that the 'Pure' mode is hooey, but if they don't offer it, sales suffer among the 'audiophile' crowd. Same reasoning as to why competent speaker designers and engineers add 'biamping' terminals to speakers.

It's not very difficult to switch between the modes and decide for yourself.

I find a difference but then again, I don't use DSP's in the unit. It is not always possible to determine when they are in use.
For example, if you use LFE+MAIN you are likely involving additional DSP processing since this operates only on digitized units.
On Onkyo, engaging bi-amping can engage them.

RF interference is real.
However, copper shields on the bottom of a case or a fifth foot are likely marketing *features*.

- Rich
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
09:03 AM Liked: 2306
post #11096 of 12348
03-27-2014 | Posts: 19,828
Joined: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd say there is a huge difference... for marketing. wink.gif I'd like to see the measurements too but I'd bet that 'Pure' has been added to these units as a sop to 'audiophiles' who genuinely believe that manufacturers of modern AVRs can't run audio and video side by side without them interfering with one another. The manufacturers will know that the 'Pure' mode is hooey, but if they don't offer it, sales suffer among the 'audiophile' crowd. Same reasoning as to why competent speaker designers and engineers add 'biamping' terminals to speakers.

It's not very difficult to switch between the modes and decide for yourself.

I find a difference but then again, I don't use DSP's in the unit. It is not always possible to determine when they are in use.
For example, if you use LFE+MAIN you are likely involving additional DSP processing since this operates only on digitized units.
On Onkyo, engaging bi-amping can engage them.

RF interference is real.
However, copper shields on the bottom of a case or a fifth foot are likely marketing *features*.

- Rich

 

I guess I could always do the measurements myself and that would put an end to speculation. Next time I have the gear out I will try to remember to do some using 'Pure' and not. I'd be amazed if there was any difference that was even remotely audible.

 

LFE+Main, bi-amping... you are kidding, yeah? ;)

 

Of course RF interference is real. The operative word there is interference. If you claim that manufacturers of modern AVRs haven't yet figured out how to stop the audio and video circuits interfering with each other in an audible way, then posting a set of measurements showing the resulting interference would be good.


RichB's Avatar RichB
09:18 AM Liked: 277
post #11097 of 12348
03-27-2014 | Posts: 8,905
Joined: Nov 1999
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I guess I could always do the measurements myself and that would put an end to speculation. Next time I have the gear out I will try to remember to do some using 'Pure' and not. I'd be amazed if there was any difference that was even remotely audible.

LFE+Main, bi-amping... you are kidding, yeah? wink.gif

Kidding about what?
Do you think that Onkyo Bi-Amps uses relays to duplicate the output?

Do you think LFE+MAIN is analog? It is digital processing, AKA Digital Signal Processing, DSP for short. wink.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Of course RF interference is real. The operative word there is interference. If you claim that manufacturers of modern AVRs haven't yet figured out how to stop the audio and video circuits interfering with each other in an audible way, then posting a set of measurements showing the resulting interference would be good.

Products are designed with a set of features. For example 11.2, that effects design choices, parts, VLSI.
Different choices are made by manufactures some may be audible. wink.gif

Will you be trying Pure Direct on your AV8801...wait you don't have one right tongue.gifsmile.gif

- Rich
arnyk's Avatar arnyk
09:21 AM Liked: 1181
post #11098 of 12348
03-27-2014 | Posts: 14,388
Joined: Oct 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post


Have you measured any difference in the audio when "Pure" is enabled?

I'm sure there is some measurable difference. "Pure" generally keeps the signal in the analog domain if the source was analog. However most modern sources are digital so "pure" mode bypasses some but not all digital processing.

What "Pure" does varies with the AVR.


Most AVRs have some kind of all-analog signal path from at least some of the analog inputs to the output. The volume control and most source selection switching is pure analog sorta - the switches are digitally controlled solid state analog switches. There many be analog tone controls (Bass & Treble). Bass mangment is almost always done in the digital domain.

The fear of digital processing is pretty irrational. The converters are typically 100 dB dynamic range + parts with 0.1 dB response flatness and very low nonlinear distortion. The power amps are generally less accurate, but none of it causes audible aritfacts.
Quote:
Supposedly it's there to decrease crosstalk from video to audio digital and analog circuits,

Unlikely. As a rule there is no accidental crosstalk between digital circuits. There can be accidental crosstalk from the video into analog circuits, but those same analog and digital circuits are in use no matter what mode you use. In the better AVRs the video circuits are used for OSD displays so they aren't turned off even if no video is input.
Quote:
I suspect it's there more for its placebo effect, not that it actually improves the audio in any audible way. I've seen one report of a difference, but it wasn't accompanied by any graphs. The Pure option has been available in Marantz equipment for at least 15 years, probably more.

If you use sound fields or analog-like decoding like DPL Pure mode bypasses it. It also generally bypasses system optimization facilities such as Audyssey, YPAO or MCACC.

Let me repeat, the implementation of "Pure Direct" is not standardized across all AVRs.

In many cases "Pure" is indeed a Placebo.
kbarnes701's Avatar kbarnes701
09:43 AM Liked: 2306
post #11099 of 12348
03-27-2014 | Posts: 19,828
Joined: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I guess I could always do the measurements myself and that would put an end to speculation. Next time I have the gear out I will try to remember to do some using 'Pure' and not. I'd be amazed if there was any difference that was even remotely audible.

LFE+Main, bi-amping... you are kidding, yeah? wink.gif

Kidding about what?
Do you think that Onkyo Bi-Amps uses relays to duplicate the output?

Do you think LFE+MAIN is analog? It is digital processing, AKA Digital Signal Processing, DSP for short. wink.gif

 

Kidding that anyone would think I would ever use LFE+Main or passive biamping.

 

 

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Of course RF interference is real. The operative word there is interference. If you claim that manufacturers of modern AVRs haven't yet figured out how to stop the audio and video circuits interfering with each other in an audible way, then posting a set of measurements showing the resulting interference would be good.

Products are designed with a set of features. For example 11.2, that effects design choices, parts, VLSI.
Different choices are made by manufactures some may be audible. wink.gif 

 

 

The operative word there being 'may'.  Show us the evidence for the claim...

 

 

 

Quote:

Will you be trying Pure Direct on your AV8801...wait you don't have one right tongue.gif smile.gif
 

 

How is that relevant?  Do you think my processor lacks a mode which shuts off the video circuits - ie a 'Pure Direct' mode?  <insert inane emoticons of choice>


RichB's Avatar RichB
09:51 AM Liked: 277
post #11100 of 12348
03-27-2014 | Posts: 8,905
Joined: Nov 1999
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The operative word there being 'may'. Show us the evidence for the claim...

You made the claim that "Pure Direct" likely a marketing feature.
Your claim is based only in that it is made my Marantz, which does make that claim.
So Marantz is full of it, where is your evidence?

]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

How is that relevant?  Do you think my processor lacks a mode which shuts off the video circuits - ie a 'Pure Direct' mode?  

I have no idea what processor you have nor what it does. As such, I would not make any claim.
However, when you say you will try "Pure Direct" on this forum, it could be misleading, since you will not try it on an AV8801.

- Rich
Tags: Ken Kreisel Dxd 12012 Subwoofer , Marantz Av8801 , Receivers Amplifiers , Audyssey , Integra

Gear in this thread - Av8801 by PriceGrabber.com
Reply Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Subscribe to this Thread

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3