Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 382 - AVS Forum
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post #11431 of 11981 Old 05-13-2014, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post

No problem, glad I could help. One other note I've found in my tinkering. I use Audyssey's Sub EQ to phase my subs together (I have 4 subs in my room, but I use them as two pairs, so the Audyssey treats them as 2 seperate subs) and to also do preliminary EQ before ARC. While this should be plug and play I've found that you get different results depending on what sub you plug into Sub A vs Sub B. This has to do with the phasing. I was noticing a suck out near the crossover frequency that looked like a phase issue. This was after a recent spring cleaning of my rack and wiring and somehow I had swapped which sub was plugged into what on the Audyssey Sub EQ. I could understand this issue if I was just plugging it back in and leaving it at that but I had run a completely new calibration, so the phase should have been updated. I only figured it out after going through everything and trying to figure out what may have changed. When I swapped the cables again and re-ran Audyssey, boom, problem fixed.

Lesson learned here, if you are using any form of Audyssey SubEQ (which is part of most XT32 implementations) and you are running more than one sub, you may yield completely different results depending on what sub is A and what sub is B. If you don't like your response (especially near the crossover frequency) swap the connections and see what you get the other way. It made a MASSIVE difference in my room. The funny thing is though, if you look at the Audyssey before and after EQ results, it shows the response as flat (surprise, surprise). But when I measured afterward with REW there was a significant dip right near the crossover (nearly 6 dB). If I had just put blind faith in the Audyssey results, I would have never known (though the ARC measurements from Anthem also showed the dip as well, another plus for having two different EQ systems working in my room).

 

One of the things that Audyssey rarely gets right first time is the integration with sub(s) and mains around the crossover region (splice). It isn’t surprising in a way because of course Audyssey never measures the combined response of the mains and sub(s) together. I have never done an Audyssey calibration which has not benefited from what we used to call, in the Audyssey Thread, the 'sub distance tweak'.

 

For anyone who wants to explore this technique and to try it out, I compiled the methods and inputs of various members, including Mark Seaton of Submersive fame, into one handy guide, with measurements and graphs to show what can be achieved by way of a much, much better response around the splice and therefore a much better integration of the subs and mains into the system.  The Guide is linked in my signature.

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post #11432 of 11981 Old 05-13-2014, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post


I have always seen similar with Audyssey, even just using a single sub out on the 8801. My first thing I do is flip polarity on the sub and mess with the sub distance until I find the maximum suckout. This sounds conter-productive, but is the best way to find the worst integration. The good news is, once you flip polarity on the sub back to "proper," your integration is immediately as good as you could possibly get it. For me this has usually resulted in subtracting around 6-7 feet off the odyssey found sub distance.

I'm using 2 subs in my 7.2 system. Klipsch Reference 15" subs and they are a polarity switch on them. Each sub is placed under the center channel and screen...built in that way, can't move them out or around the room. I don't have REW to mess with but I guess I need to get it or something like it....but are you saying that both subs should have the polarity phase with the same or one at zero and the other sub at 180 degree's? I've always just left them at zero.

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post #11433 of 11981 Old 05-13-2014, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mdrums View Post

I'm using 2 subs in my 7.2 system. Klipsch Reference 15" subs and they are a polarity switch on them. Each sub is placed under the center channel and screen...built in that way, can't move them out or around the room. I don't have REW to mess with but I guess I need to get it or something like it....but are you saying that both subs should have the polarity phase with the same or one at zero and the other sub at 180 degree's? I've always just left them at zero.

It could technically be at any varying degree between 0 and 180, but doing the delay in the 8801 is what will get you there. since your subs are right near your mains, odds are 0 will be closest to in phase, which is the same for my subs which flank the LCR's on the top and bottom. So then what I do is flip the polarity so that they are "Out of phase" with the mains and start messing with the sub distance while running measurements until I see the largest suckout through the crossover region. This means you will see a sharp drop in the response between where the mains slope off and the subs pick up. When you see the largest dip, that means you are now perfectly out of phase and switching your subs back to 0 or in our cases "in phase" with the mains, it should yield a perfectly delayed crossover region and seamless integration between the two speakers. This method also works well in speaker crossover design. biggrin.gif
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post #11434 of 11981 Old 05-13-2014, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

It could technically be at any varying degree between 0 and 180, but doing the delay in the 8801 is what will get you there. since your subs are right near your mains, odds are 0 will be closest to in phase, which is the same for my subs which flank the LCR's on the top and bottom. So then what I do is flip the polarity so that they are "Out of phase" with the mains and start messing with the sub distance while running measurements until I see the largest suckout through the crossover region. This means you will see a sharp drop in the response between where the mains slope off and the subs pick up. When you see the largest dip, that means you are now perfectly out of phase and switching your subs back to 0 or in our cases "in phase" with the mains, it should yield a perfectly delayed crossover region and seamless integration between the two speakers. This method also works well in speaker crossover design. biggrin.gif

Cool thanks....gotta get REW or something like it 1st.

I sold my Integra processor and should be getting something new this Thursday...maybe a Marantz AV8801 as I just can't bring myself to spend $12k on a McIntosh to match my amps. My dealer sells both and is actually leading me to the Marantz anyway.

thanks again...Mike

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post #11435 of 11981 Old 05-13-2014, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

It could technically be at any varying degree between 0 and 180, but doing the delay in the 8801 is what will get you there. since your subs are right near your mains, odds are 0 will be closest to in phase, which is the same for my subs which flank the LCR's on the top and bottom. So then what I do is flip the polarity so that they are "Out of phase" with the mains and start messing with the sub distance while running measurements until I see the largest suckout through the crossover region. This means you will see a sharp drop in the response between where the mains slope off and the subs pick up. When you see the largest dip, that means you are now perfectly out of phase and switching your subs back to 0 or in our cases "in phase" with the mains, it should yield a perfectly delayed crossover region and seamless integration between the two speakers. This method also works well in speaker crossover design. biggrin.gif

I'm afraid to ask...

Exactly how do you "see the largest suckout through the crossover region". Is there a graph of the equalization somewhere or are you running REW (which I have struggled with and had no success -- chair to keyboard interface issue in all likelihood)?

I know I'm losing some bass response -- it's obvious when you compare a song with some low notes (London Grammar's "Hey Now" is a good example) between the car stereo (no sub, btw!) and the home unit...

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post #11436 of 11981 Old 05-14-2014, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by admranger View Post

I'm afraid to ask...

Exactly how do you "see the largest suckout through the crossover region". Is there a graph of the equalization somewhere or are you running REW (which I have struggled with and had no success -- chair to keyboard interface issue in all likelihood)?

I know I'm losing some bass response -- it's obvious when you compare a song with some low notes (London Grammar's "Hey Now" is a good example) between the car stereo (no sub, btw!) and the home unit...

Yep, some type of measuring rig is needed. I have had my troubles with REW and typically use OmniMic to run quick sweeps or do something like what I spelled out above. The OM is an absolute sinch too. You literally open the software, plug the mic in, and then pop the CD into your player and start running sweeps. That is it. You can literally be running sweeps in less than 2 minutes. The other nice thing is the sweep continuously repeats itself so if you are making slight adjustments, you can see the changes on the graph in real-time.

I would love to see a perfect "Blend" between the interface and more robust capability of REW, with the ease of connection and startup of OM. That is something that will be an instant purchase for me should it ever happen smile.gif At this point though, REW has become pretty plug and play with the new USB mics and such.

The comparison in the car is probably not very accurate. typically even with no "bass" boost on our car's head units, the response curve is still grossly over-emphasized in the bass region. The bottom line is a lot of people (especially when listening below reference volumes) don't prefer a flat response down low....it sounds bland, or dry, or boring. A slight rise in response across the bass region usually fixes this.

Other people really love a flat response, and value complete linearity in their response graphs, and this camp is just as right as anyone else, it really comes down to preference. I like a flat response graph more for movies than music, with 2 channel listening to good music though, a house curve is an absolute must for me!!!

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post #11437 of 11981 Old 05-15-2014, 08:56 PM
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Another Trigger failure. This is the second trigger failure. Last time it took a month to get repaired.

Today there was some cycling of my amp and I smelled burned electronics.
Sure enough Trigger 2 had gone dark. Trigger 1 is still working.

I can't believe I have to send it back in for repair. What a PIA.
As this point, I cannot recommend this component.

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post #11438 of 11981 Old 05-15-2014, 09:33 PM
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What are you triggering? How much current are you drawing?
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post #11439 of 11981 Old 05-15-2014, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Another Trigger failure. This is the second trigger failure. Last time it took a month to get repaired.

Today there was some cycling of my amp and I smelled burned electronics.
Sure enough Trigger 2 had gone dark. Trigger 1 is still working.

I can't believe I have to send it back in for repair. What a PIA.
As this point, I cannot recommend this component.

- Rich

Sorry to hear that Rich frown.gif when it happened the first time was it both? I'm in the midst of trouble shooting a center channel issue as sometimes when powering up it's not present and or it goes out, I've already deduced its on all sources and even internal test tone when it happens. This however gets remedied with a few power cycles (which I hate doing due to wear ) I plan on checking the amp connections and putting the center on another channel, I did a rest as well but it still occurred.

So if its any consolation I'm here with you and besides you have the 105 as an excellent hold me over, I on the other hand have a 105 & an Anthem AVM 20v2 should a repair be necessary biggrin.gifwink.gif
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post #11440 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 01:54 AM
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What are you triggering? How much current are you drawing?

Sorry to hear about your problems. I too would ask how much current you are trying to draw from the trigger input? Those can't push much current. The manual says 150mA @ 12VDC.

I used an optical isolator to protect the Marantz as a safety measure
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post #11441 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 03:52 AM
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What are you triggering? How much current are you drawing?

The first trigger (trigger 1) that blew was directly triggering a Parasound A51 amplifier.
The second trigger (trigger 2) that blew was triggering the Oppo HA-1 that is in turn triggering the A51.

Apparently, the fixed trigger is still working but trigger 2 had the same failure. I will put a meter on it.
Since one trigger went triggering a different device and then the other went almost a year later triggering a different device, I am going with a less-than robust design wink.gif

I am not the only one with failed triggers.

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post #11442 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Sorry to hear that Rich frown.gif when it happened the first time was it both? I'm in the midst of trouble shooting a center channel issue as sometimes when powering up it's not present and or it goes out, I've already deduced its on all sources and even internal test tone when it happens. This however gets remedied with a few power cycles (which I hate doing due to wear ) I plan on checking the amp connections and putting the center on another channel, I did a rest as well but it still occurred.

So if its any consolation I'm here with you and besides you have the 105 as an excellent hold me over, I on the other hand have a 105 & an Anthem AVM 20v2 should a repair be necessary biggrin.gifwink.gif

I have an alternate program for the Pronto where the BDP-105 is used as the preamp but the program will have to be altered to account for the HA-1.

Since both my wife and I could smell cooked electronics, I think I will forgo the usual bevy of resets and power downs, etc and just put a meter on it.

- Rich
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post #11443 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 04:01 AM
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Originally Posted by curtisG View Post

Sorry to hear about your problems. I too would ask how much current you are trying to draw from the trigger input? Those can't push much current. The manual says 150mA @ 12VDC.

I used an optical isolator to protect the Marantz as a safety measure

The trigger was connected to the Oppo HA-1 DAC/Preamp trigger input.
From the manual triggers on "3.5 V – 15 V, 10 mA minimum".

Trigger 1 blew when connected to the A51, these are simple trigger inputs.

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post #11444 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by curtisG View Post

Sorry to hear about your problems. I too would ask how much current you are trying to draw from the trigger input? Those can't push much current. The manual says 150mA @ 12VDC.

I used an optical isolator to protect the Marantz as a safety measure

Thanks, can you provide a link to an optical isolator ?

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post #11445 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 05:11 AM
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I'm triggering a 5 channel parasound amp. Am I to expect it to crap out, or is this just a random fluke?

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post #11446 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by spentmuch View Post

I'm triggering a 5 channel parasound amp. Am I to expect it to crap out, or is this just a random fluke?

Obviously, this is not happening to most users.
But it happened to me twice with different triggers.

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post #11447 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 05:19 AM
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Right. It doesn't appear to be a commonly cited issue on this forum here. But then, we don't really know how many users actually use the triggers.

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post #11448 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 06:56 AM
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Thanks, can you provide a link to an optical isolator ?

- Rich

I used a Niles OTI-512 opto-isolator



With this, I am able to switch all of my Subwoofer amps (5 of them), my main power amp, and a cooling fan.
All while protecting the AV8801

Hope this helps

--curtis
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post #11449 of 11981 Old 05-16-2014, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by curtisG View Post

I used a Niles OTI-512 opto-isolator



With this, I am able to switch all of my Subwoofer amps (5 of them), my main power amp, and a cooling fan.
All while protecting the AV8801

Hope this helps

--curtis

Thanks.
Now that I think of it, that would not have helped. All it would do is stop the AV8801 from taking out the components on the other end wink.gif

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post #11450 of 11981 Old 05-18-2014, 11:23 PM
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Guys, I'm to buy 8801 for my theater, but i cannot understand - does 8801 make influence on analog XLR signal from OPPO 105 in pure direct mode? Or it goes like it is from OPPO with no changing?
I mean that some processors digitalize analog signals from inputs and then making them analog again through their DAC.
As I know - OPPOs DAC is better then 8801, thats why I asking.
thank you
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post #11451 of 11981 Old 05-19-2014, 05:54 AM
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Need some advise here without having to go through the entire thread.

If I want to set up a 5 channel home theatre, would the Av7701 be sufficient? What advantages would there be in getting the 8801?

does the 8801 offer better sound quality as compared to the 7701?

Any advise would be very much appreciated.
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post #11452 of 11981 Old 05-19-2014, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DarknightDK View Post

Need some advise here without having to go through the entire thread.

If I want to set up a 5 channel home theatre, would the Av7701 be sufficient? What advantages would there be in getting the 8801?

does the 8801 offer better sound quality as compared to the 7701?

Any advise would be very much appreciated.

The 8801 has XT32. The 7701 has only XT.
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post #11453 of 11981 Old 05-19-2014, 08:24 AM
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Slight risk of this post/question being slightly off-topic but I hope my fellow 8801 owners will indulge me and offer a couple responses to help me out.


The recent posts on triggers has got me thinking that I never truly finished my install. Once I got to the point where things could be powered up the PJ/screen was hung, the finishing touches in the wiring closet stopped dead in their tracks! What I mean is that I never took advantage of the use of the 12v triggers on any of my gear. I leave the power conditioner on 24/7 and right now I manually turn on each amplifier when I want to use the system.

My AV8801 feeds three separate amplifiers; Rotel RMB-1095 5X200w for front stage and rears. Rotel RB-1080 2X200w for sides. Anthem A2 2X225w for heights. All three amplifiers have 12v triggers in and out. I also use a Panamax high current M5300-PM. The power conditioner has two high current switched outlets as well as a pair of other switched outlets (in addition to 4 un-switched outlets).

This is my first system that has the ability to utilize the triggers of the 8801 to control the system. So my questions are basically how do I connect these for power. My signal cabling is all fine and works great.


Step 1) I'm thinking that I will run a 12v trigger cable from output 1 of the 8801 to the input of the Panamax M5300. This will then turn the Panamax on/standby when the 8801 is powered on and off.
Step 2) Currently my 5ch Rotel and the Anthem are plugged into the two high-current switched-delayed outlets of the Panamax and the small Rotel 2ch is in one of the regular switched outlets.

Q: By using the trigger/switched outlets on the Panamax feed by the 8801, do I still need to run trigger cables to the amplifiers?
Q: Is having the small 2ch amp on a non-delayed switched outlet a problem? If so, is there another configuration I'm not thinking of?

I'd appreciate the input of the group. Thanks in advance.

Greg

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post #11454 of 11981 Old 05-19-2014, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by gdfein View Post

Slight risk of this post/question being slightly off-topic but I hope my fellow 8801 owners will indulge me and offer a couple responses to help me out.


The recent posts on triggers has got me thinking that I never truly finished my install. Once I got to the point where things could be powered up the PJ/screen was hung, the finishing touches in the wiring closet stopped dead in their tracks! What I mean is that I never took advantage of the use of the 12v triggers on any of my gear. I leave the power conditioner on 24/7 and right now I manually turn on each amplifier when I want to use the system.

My AV8801 feeds three separate amplifiers; Rotel RMB-1095 5X200w for front stage and rears. Rotel RB-1080 2X200w for sides. Anthem A2 2X225w for heights. All three amplifiers have 12v triggers in and out. I also use a Panamax high current M5300-PM. The power conditioner has two high current switched outlets as well as a pair of other switched outlets (in addition to 4 un-switched outlets).

This is my first system that has the ability to utilize the triggers of the 8801 to control the system. So my questions are basically how do I connect these for power. My signal cabling is all fine and works great.


Step 1) I'm thinking that I will run a 12v trigger cable from output 1 of the 8801 to the input of the Panamax M5300. This will then turn the Panamax on/standby when the 8801 is powered on and off.
Step 2) Currently my 5ch Rotel and the Anthem are plugged into the two high-current switched-delayed outlets of the Panamax and the small Rotel 2ch is in one of the regular switched outlets.

Q: By using the trigger/switched outlets on the Panamax feed by the 8801, do I still need to run trigger cables to the amplifiers?
Q: Is having the small 2ch amp on a non-delayed switched outlet a problem? If so, is there another configuration I'm not thinking of?

I'd appreciate the input of the group. Thanks in advance.

Greg

I have 4 amps, two with triggers, two without. They Control my front L/R (two channel Mcintosh) and cc, side,rear (rotel RNB-1095.) The others are a 4 channel for high/wide and a two channel for a second set of sides. I don't mind switching them on manually because depending on the material, I don't always use them. In my opinion (others may disagree) there is no need to trigger the Panamax. My conditioners don't have triggers but even if they did, I would not use them. Why send voltage spikes to the amps without need? Again, just my thoughts.

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post #11455 of 11981 Old 05-19-2014, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

The 8801 has XT32. The 7701 has only XT.

I don't have a 8801. But thinking of getting one as my first pre amp. Been comparing the 2 because I don't need 11.2 channels. But to me what makes the 8801 more intriguing then the 7701 is XT32, Sub EQ HT, and I think a better VP to name a few. Anything else? Correct me if I'm wrong though.
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post #11456 of 11981 Old 05-19-2014, 01:23 PM
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Not likely to be any difference in video processing between the two, although moot point as most likely bypass the 8801 and let the source or TV do the processing, rather the much better audio quality from XT32 is the ticket. smile.gif

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post #11457 of 11981 Old 05-19-2014, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Nuke18 View Post

Guys, I'm to buy 8801 for my theater, but i cannot understand - does 8801 make influence on analog XLR signal from OPPO 105 in pure direct mode? Or it goes like it is from OPPO with no changing?
I mean that some processors digitalize analog signals from inputs and then making them analog again through their DAC.
As I know - OPPOs DAC is better then 8801, thats why I asking.
thank you


In "Pure Direct" the 8801 does nothing to the signal.

I cannot answer the other questions as I've only had the 8801. It's a marvelous unit though.
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Marantz 8801 Arcam P1000 Oppo 95 SystemDek IIX turntable B&W LCR6 (front 3) B&W in ceiling surround speakers Velodyne SPL-10 Subs (2) Sony xbr65x850a
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post #11458 of 11981 Old 05-20-2014, 04:35 AM
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In "Pure Direct" the 8801 does nothing to the signal.

I cannot answer the other questions as I've only had the 8801. It's a marvelous unit though.

If you enable LFE+Main then there is processing since the "double-bass" operates.
It is unclear if the XLR and other analog inputs are always digitized or not. I suspect they are.

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post #11459 of 11981 Old 05-23-2014, 12:38 PM
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Troubleshooting help request following a lightning strike near the house.

First of all, lightning does strike twice at different times in the same place. A large Sycamore tree was hit in 2012 & again 2-days ago. Ironically, although the tree was leafing out, it looked sickly & before having a 70' tree land on the roof, I had it scheduled for removal next week. However, following the strike, I had the job done today.

In 2012, various items in the house containing integrated circuits were toasted, but nothing this expensive, nor exceeding our $1K deductible. We're having a similar, but different experience this time.

My AV 8001 is not recognizing any HDMI cables plugged into it. It does power on. Text is seen on its display (that's where I'm reading No HDMI). I've powered it off -- unplugged it from the mains, disconnected & reconnected HDMI cables -- still no HDMI ports are recognized. My next step will be to reset the microprocessor. If I'm still experiencing problems, might you recommend something else that I could try, before throwing in the towel, calling the unit fried and informing the insurance company of same?

BTW, MY 8801 was connected to our LAN via an Ethernet cable to our Uverse Gateway (modem if you will) and two out of 4 ports on our uverse Gateway are fried. My PC's network adapter is also toast, but everything else in the PC works fine. That's fortunate, because the 2012 strike took out that PC's motherboard & CPU, but I was able to use its power supply & video card when I rebuilt the PC. Hopefully a very inexpensive add-on network adapter card will replace the on-the-motherboard fried adapter, making the PC fully functional.

Anyone else have experience dealing with electronics -- especially something like the AV8801 -- following a lightning surge and doing so with your homeowners insurance company?
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post #11460 of 11981 Old 05-23-2014, 09:52 PM
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It is not passing video in standby or while unit is on. I left unplugged for only about 3 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccfunk View Post

Sent unit for repair, got a call today and it is the HDMI board that has failed. He told me this is the most common failure across all brands. The HDMI board controls all intelligence for the pre/pre.

Got unit back, performed room correction and it sounds great smile.gif. Actually sounds more smoother than before. Treble and Bass more fluid and natural. I can listen for hours with no fatigue. I did notice that when running room correction my display now shows actual recommended mic positions on screen. I didn't recall this on my original room correction 6 months ago. Probably a characteristic of lastest firmware.

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