Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread - Page 79 - AVS Forum
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post #2341 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leefarber View Post

Following up on my earlier post about setting up the Rel R528 sub with Audyssey, here's what the tech from Rel suggested:

So here's what you do firstly unplug the high level and set the volume on the REL to about 11oclock and plug it into the LFE only.
Now run the room correction , then check the setting they speakers should be set to large and the sub should be set to LFE only with the crossover set to 200htz giving the DOLBY DIGITAL filter the ability to take what it needs from the LFE signal .
Now manually follow the instructions in the manual to set up the high level connection .
You are now ready to rock , the LFE is doing what it needs to do and the high level is underpinning the speakers giving them that natural extended bass.


I'm still confused by this. 200Hz crossover???

The Tech from REL is both confused and using the wrong terminology.

Before running Audyssey, plug the pre/pro's subwoofer output into the sub's LFE input. This bypasses the Low Pass Filter built into the sub. Audyssey's calibration ignores whatever speaker settings you've set in the pre/pro. When Audyssey is finished, it informs the pre/pro's own code where the F3 point is for each of the speakers. If it's "low enough" the pre/pro's own code (NOT Audyssey!) sets them as "Large" i.e. it disables bass management for speakers which have a reasonably good low frequency response. In spite of this, you need to manually change them all to "Small", which enables bass management for them. You also should raise (never lower) the crossover frequency for each of the speakers to at least 80Hz. (Neither of these changes affects Audyssey.) Some people have found that higher crossover settings sound better because they have a quality subwoofer. How high you set the crossover frequencies for the various speakers depends both on the relative quality of the subwoofer and the woofers built into the speakers in that frequency range and on how sensitive your hearing is for localizing the directions of low frequency sounds. 200Hz is rather high. Most people can't determine where frequencies below 80Hz are coming from, so redirecting those low frequencies to a single quality subwoofer is the right thing to do. Above about 80 Hz, though, most people can tell where the sound is coming from.

I don't know why he thinks Dolby Digital would be "taking from" the LFE channel. The Low Frequency Effects channel is a completely separate audio channel provided by Dolby Digital (and DTS). You do need to let all of the frequencies in the LFE channel get to the subwoofer, though. Maybe that's what he was trying to say (raise the subwoofer's LPF filter to 200 Hz or whatever its max is) , but if you use the LFE input on the sub, that's what you're already doing, since that input bypasses the sub's LPF (Low Pass Filter). Also, many people do confuse the terminology, using the term "LFE" when they really mean "subwoofer".

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post #2342 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 10:45 AM
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Thanks for the response, guys. I ran Audyssey WITHOUT the hi-level Neutrik Speakon connector attached. Audyssey pegged my speakers as Large. Rel says having the speakers set to Large is MANDATORY (their words), but everyone else says to change the speakers to Small and raise the Crossover to 80Hz. Obviously, what sounds best is most important, but I don't want to negate a large aspect of this expensive sub.

I've also heard to never change the LPF and just leave it at 120. What to do??? I'm so confused!!!

Thanks again.
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post #2343 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 11:27 AM
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^^
I have an older REL 505 but it obviously has the high level connection via Speakon like all REL's. It is my understanding that the high level connection is only meant to augment the bass response of the L+R speakers only (or any other speakers the high level happens to be connected to, I know a dealer who set up a surround system with 5 REL's independently attached via high level to 5 satellites...).

So in a surround set-up with digital room connection like the AV8801 has, the high level connection only makes sense when listening to sources in stereo when using the pure direct (or what's it called) setting, avoiding all DSP.

I had my Oppo 83SE-Nuforce connected to the Yamaha AVR via both HDMI (for visual and multichannel) and RCA analogue for CD or stereo SACD listening. With the pure direct setting, the REL still took over the low frequencies.

I just don't see the point to use the high level for surround sound, since that's what the 0.1 connection is for?

Building a HT with 7.2.4 layout and ◤SEOS-24◥ LCR.
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post #2344 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 11:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Ironically, I'm preferring my 802D2's and 803D2's set to large, and let my two fathoms f113's handle LFE and height/rears crossings at 60/80. I think the Mac amps help in this regard, as they have great power reserves and let the speakers play effortlessly even at lower frequencies.

Everyone's room and placement is different of course...

Yes, I have my set up in a family room, more like a media room, the back is open to the upstairs, but it is great for when we have party's so that you can enjoy from the room or view from the upstairs were we have a huge kitchen / dinning area. It will be great for super bowl party.So in my situation Audyssey dialed in my system pretty nice taking in for the rooms acoustics. I think that's were Audyssey real shine when your room could use the correction...
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post #2345 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Ironically, I'm preferring my 802D2's and 803D2's set to large, and let my two fathoms f113's handle LFE and height/rears crossings at 60/80. I think the Mac amps help in this regard, as they have great power reserves and let the speakers play effortlessly even at lower frequencies.

Everyone's room and placement is different of course...

Large here as well my Halo A21 has the current to drive my mains without breaking a sweat biggrin.gif
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post #2346 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 12:48 PM
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I just did an A/B comparison between the 2channel performance of the av8801 and my dedicated 2 channel setup.

Here is the way the system is setup:


Obviously I replaced the onkyo 886 with the av8801.... I played high rez 192khz/24bit lossless FLAC from my synology server to both the av8801 directly, and to the J river media client on the laptop feeding the dedicated 2 channel circuit:



I have my remote setup to enable the pass labs X2 pre to go into Unity mode (bypass), or to the input from the DAC, so relatively easy and quickly I could go back and forth between what source it was coming out of the speakers. Not 100% DBT and scientific, but close enough IMO.

Observations:
- I have to say that the 192khz/32bit DACs are not bad at all! I expected a big drop off in quality (as was evident when playing on the onkyo when used as a preamp stage), but was very surprised that it was excellent.
- the pass labs dedicated lineup was still superior with better transparency and overall clarity, and the voicing was less "muffled" and more natural; that's not to say that this unit is not great, nay, it actually speaks volumes on how good the D-A stage in this unit really is (in addition to the preamplification path), because to date I've yet to hear a better 2 channel setup than the way I have mine currently.
- Audyssey was not engaged at all, and MDAX and all other "features" disabled.

I have to say that for a quick listen, or to play stuff when company is around, this a great addition to the capabilities of this unit, as I no longer feel like having to engage the 2 channel lineup when wanting to listen to FLAC high rez stuff. On those critical listening sessions, I'm still going the pass labs route, but kudos to marantz....well done.
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post #2347 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by leefarber View Post

Thanks for the response, guys. I ran Audyssey WITHOUT the hi-level Neutrik Speakon connector attached. Audyssey pegged my speakers as Large.
Good. Then you can leave them Large without the potential concerns I raised.
Quote:
Rel says having the speakers set to Large is MANDATORY (their words), but everyone else says to change the speakers to Small and raise the Crossover to 80Hz.
Not everyone. The whole point of using the REL is to simultaneously allow the mains to run full range, with no LFE in the mains, with redirected bass from Small speakers and the LFE all going direct to the sub.
Quote:
Obviously, what sounds best is most important, but I don't want to negate a large aspect of this expensive sub.
Exactly.
Quote:
I've also heard to never change the LPF and just leave it at 120. What to do??? I'm so confused!!!
The normal advice is to leave LFE at 120 Hz. But if you do that, then you have two sets of 120 Hz filters running in cascade, the 8801 and the REL. No need for two of them, and since the one in the REL is permanent, the best option is to set it to the highest frequency allowed in the 8801, 250 Hz.

I may have confused things by mentioning your other option, which is to set the LFE filter in the 8801 to, say, 80 Hz. You can ignore that, but if interested in some reason for doing so, we can discuss separately.
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post #2348 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by thezaks View Post

I was wondering how the owners like the bass on this processor with movies, utilizing bitstream hdmi from the blu ray player. I don't mind tight and articulate bass, but I don't like thin bass - I definitely like some weight to it - especially for movies. Anyway, let me know what you think about the sonics, with regards to bass...

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post #2349 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 05:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Asx View Post

It is known that Paradigms 100v2 are a little bit too heavy on bass, but I think Audyssey has freaked out, over-reacted, and removed too much.

Few question on Audyssey implementation in av8801.
Am I right that there is no way to tweak the Audyssey final equalizers? Or at least use them as the "base" for custom graphic EQs? Or the only way to use graphic EQs is to start fresh from zero? (Edit: Found "Copy" function that supposedly copies "flat" Audyssey curves to the graphic EQ. Would be nice if they explained the difference between "flat" and normal eq curves in some details though...)
Can I preset speaker sizes (let's say I fronts to small) and then run auto equalization? I mean, will Audyssey re-detect them as large again, or will try to work with my preset? I'm asking because changing fronts to small after the auto calibration is done would probably result in wrong eq for both fronts and the sub. (Edit: Read in the Audyssey thread that it's perfectly safe to change from Large to Small after the equalization is done.)

Correct, no way to tweak the final EQ using the 8801. The base copy is a very crude graphic EQ of what the Audyssey filters are actually accomplishing. Also by using the Graphic EQ, you disable Audyssey and the Audyssey related features. Audyssey Flat is as you would expect ...while the regular curve uses a high frequency roll off. Any settings done prior to running Audyssey are ignored by Audyssey. As noted in the Audyssey FAQ/101 Guide linked in my sig, changing the LARGE/SMALL, speaker crossover, or speaker/sub volume settings has no impact on the Audyssey EQ as these settings are made by the 8801 and not Audyssey.

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post #2350 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 05:15 PM
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Thanks for your replies, Roger. There really are two different schools of thought here with the REL. My primary reason for picking up the R-528 is so when playing music from my Mac Mini, I can add deep bass to the stereo music I listen to in Pure Direct mode straight from my DAC. In that sense, it doesn't matter what I set my Mains to, as there is no Bass Management anyway in Pure Direct mode. But I worry that watching movies or concert Blu-rays will be lacking bass if I have the Mains set to LARGE (and thus have no Bass Management).

Would making the corrections to the LPF in the 8801 as you suggested (bringing it up to 250Hz) allow me to leave the speakers set to LARGE? Or do I do as erwinfrombelgium suggested above, and just use the high level Neutrik connection for my originally intended purpose (Stereo music in Pure Direct) and set my speakers to SMALL for traditional bass management?
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post #2351 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ettepet View Post

I am happy to see that several users were not able to reproduce Rich's findings. Either some weird, yet to be named phenomenon is going on or it is a defective unit. I would indeed suggest a factory reset to return the Marantz to true default state. My unit will arrive within two days so I can take a look myself.
Fortunately differences between hdmi cables can readily be tested using the Oppo's two hdmi outs, to waylay any esoteric qualities that might be implied. biggrin.gif

In case of these fancy RedMere hdmi cables I would suggest always to keep a reasonably priced (20$ ?) regular hdmi cable around, just to be sure nothing unexpected is going on.

@Rich, a flat lying center speaker will (in my experience) always sound thin. I seem to remember the exact same thing of boosted highs having the opposite effect (less thin) on my center. I have all equal LCR's (the CAT12's). My Onkyo is out for repairs (hdmi board related) so I cannot check.

My Oppo 105 just arrived, and I'm doing some tidying up. If I leave myself enough time I might hook it up (as a pre-amp) to my powered fronts.

I did this today.
It sounded fantastic. Still very bright but fuller than the AV8801 (which is very good too).
The bass definition was also better directly connected.

Just for fun, I think I will compare the Onkyo PR_SC5507, against Oppo direct, and the 8801 tomorrow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Careful on running the 105 as a preamp it could tempt one into fewer components on the rack wink.gif

There is real danger smile.gif

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post #2352 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asx View Post

It is known that Paradigms 100v2 are a little bit too heavy on bass, but I think Audyssey has freaked out, over-reacted, and removed too much.

Few question on Audyssey implementation in av8801.
Am I right that there is no way to tweak the Audyssey final equalizers? Or at least use them as the "base" for custom graphic EQs? Or the only way to use graphic EQs is to start fresh from zero? (Edit: Found "Copy" function that supposedly copies "flat" Audyssey curves to the graphic EQ. Would be nice if they explained the difference between "flat" and normal eq curves in some details though...) 
Can I preset speaker sizes (let's say I fronts to small) and then run auto equalization? I mean, will Audyssey re-detect them as large again, or will try to work with my preset? I'm asking because changing fronts to small after the auto calibration is done would probably result in wrong eq for both fronts and the sub. (Edit: Read in the Audyssey thread that it's perfectly safe to change from Large to Small after the equalization is done.)

1.  The copied files are crude and limited shadows of Audyssey equalizations.  The only real way to adjust the FR to your taste (and keep Audyssey EQ) is to get MultEQ Pro (for more money) because that allows you to sculpt the FR within some limits.

 

2.  All presets are reset by Audyssey.  As you found, you can always adjust the crossover higher than what Audyssey chooses.


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post #2353 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 06:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I did this today.
It sounded fantastic. Still very bright but fuller than the AV8801 (which is very good too).
The bass definition was also better directly connected.

Just for fun, I think I will compare the Onkyo PR_SC5507, against Oppo direct, and the 8801 tomorrow.
There is real danger smile.gif

- Rich
Hang in there RichB there's more to come in the bass from both, infact about two weeks in and I had a hard time choosing a preference between the 8801 and the 105 which says a lot about the 8801 as a processor for all, cool thing is now you have a reference point.

have fun!
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post #2354 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

1.  The copied files are crude and limited shadows of Audyssey equalizations.  The only real way to adjust the FR to your taste (and keep Audyssey EQ) is to get MultEQ Pro (for more money) because that allows you to sculpt the FR within some limits.

2.  All presets are reset by Audyssey.  As you found, you can always adjust the crossover higher than what Audyssey chooses.

So Kal, do you run the B&W's full range or do select the small setting?
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post #2355 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 06:19 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post


So Kal, do you run the B&W's full range or do select the small setting?

The B&W's are not in the same system as any Audyssey processor.  I use them with a Meridian processor that permits me to switch between full-range and bass-managed easily.


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post #2356 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

The B&W's are not in the same system as any Audyssey processor.  I use them with a Meridian processor that permits me to switch between full-range and bass-managed easily.
that is a nice benifit to have and something I miss about the Anthem's cinema and music settings while not not completely switchable but I didn't have to go as deep into menus to get there. Do you run the speakers in your other setup full range or do allow Audyssey to do the work?
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post #2357 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Asx View Post

It is known that Paradigms 100v2 are a little bit too heavy on bass, but I think Audyssey has freaked out, over-reacted, and removed too much.

Really? I don't think that of mine at all. Could be something with the room that Audyessy is trying to fix, because anechoic response of the speaker is pretty flat.

Just because there is a knob doesn't mean you should turn it.
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post #2358 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 07:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post


that is a nice benifit to have and something I miss about the Anthem's cinema and music settings while not not completely switchable but I didn't have to go as deep into menus to get there. Do you run the speakers in your other setup full range or do allow Audyssey to do the work?

I do.  The other setup is in a less acoustically accommodating room despite treatment and the equipment is less exalted.


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post #2359 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cp1966 View Post

Got my 8801 up and running. Wonderful setup with the GUI, it was almost flawless.

Running Audessy, as in th epast it measured the subwoofer distance as 26 feet, almost twice its actual distance. But I was able to correct that. It also changed the volume with a 2 db difference between my main L and R speakers. Weird.....

One minor issue, and it may be the remote, but i have a Harmony One, and everything works except it does not put the correct input on the 8801 to HDMI input 1, the DirecTv HD DVR that I have. The 8801 turns on, but it goes to the last input chosen. It does not do this if I select one of the other HDMI inputs, just HDMI input #1.

I am going to try posting this on the Harmony One page as well.


I got it figured out;

I manually entered the command using the Logitech software, entering the command "CBL/SAT" and I taught the Harmony One that single command. This was done with the Harmony Remote connected to the PC, then updated the Harmony One.

I then fired up the system using the command (activity) to watch a Blu ray via the Oppo, then after everything was one I selected the command (activity) watch DirecTv DVR, and everythin:)g worked!
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post #2360 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Correct, no way to tweak the final EQ using the 8801. The base copy is a very crude graphic EQ of what the Audyssey filters are actually accomplishing. Also by using the Graphic EQ, you disable Audyssey and the Audyssey related features. Audyssey Flat is as you would expect ...while the regular curve uses a high frequency roll off. Any settings done prior to running Audyssey are ignored by Audyssey. As noted in the Audyssey FAQ/101 Guide linked in my sig, changing the LARGE/SMALL, speaker crossover, or speaker/sub volume settings has no impact on the Audyssey EQ as these settings are made by the 8801 and not Audyssey.

Hello

Can some one please help with my question on Audyssey. I ran Audyssey and my L/R was set up as large. I then went back in to Manual Settings and changed my speakers to Small.

When I went back to Audyssey and checked the results, it still shows as large. How do I edit my settings there. I am asking this because if I engage Audyssey will it not override my manual settings.

I sincerely appreciate any help in this area.

Thanks
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post #2361 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by rramacha View Post

Hello

Can some one please help with my question on Audyssey. I ran Audyssey and my L/R was set up as large. I then went back in to Manual Settings and changed my speakers to Small.

When I went back to Audyssey and checked the results, it still shows as large. How do I edit my settings there. I am asking this because if I engage Audyssey will it not override my manual settings.

I sincerely appreciate any help in this area.

Thanks
Audyssey is showing you its settings after the calibration as they are stored as a reference point, if you have manually changed the settings in 8801 then go back to confirm they are small there and not in Audyssey;)
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post #2362 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 09:52 PM
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Hello

Yes I checked in the manual settings and its changed there. I just want to make sure having Audyssey engaged doesn't defeat these changes.

Thanks
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post #2363 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 10:01 PM
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I was just checking with settings and engaged dialogue enhancer. When I again went back it was turned off. I tried this couple of times but every time after exiting the menu its turned off. Is this a bug or an issue with my unit alone.

Cheers
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post #2364 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I did this today.
It sounded fantastic. Still very bright but fuller than the AV8801 (which is very good too).
The bass definition was also better directly connected.

Just for fun, I think I will compare the Onkyo PR_SC5507, against Oppo direct, and the 8801 tomorrow.
There is real danger smile.gif

biggrin.gif (you will be missed)

I read a topic about this on avforums yesterday (link), where it was mentioned that you can even use DTS Neo:6. There is likely a better topic on AVS about this but I had no time yet to discover it.
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post #2365 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 10:21 PM
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Originally Posted by leefarber View Post

Thanks for your replies, Roger. There really are two different schools of thought here with the REL. My primary reason for picking up the R-528 is so when playing music from my Mac Mini, I can add deep bass to the stereo music I listen to in Pure Direct mode straight from my DAC. In that sense, it doesn't matter what I set my Mains to, as there is no Bass Management anyway in Pure Direct mode. But I worry that watching movies or concert Blu-rays will be lacking bass if I have the Mains set to LARGE (and thus have no Bass Management).
Understood.
Quote:
Would making the corrections to the LPF in the 8801 as you suggested (bringing it up to 250Hz) allow me to leave the speakers set to LARGE?
There is no relation between the setting of the LFE's LPF and the main speaker crossover.
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Or do I do as erwinfrombelgium suggested above, and just use the high level Neutrik connection for my originally intended purpose (Stereo music in Pure Direct) and set my speakers to SMALL for traditional bass management?
It's your choice. You said the goal of getting the REL was to get best quality. If that is a result of the unique merge of speaker and LFE signals, then I'm not sure why you'd want to abandon that for movies.
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post #2366 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Understood.
There is no relation between the setting of the LFE's LPF and the main speaker crossover.
It's your choice. You said the goal of getting the REL was to get best quality. If that is a result of the unique merge of speaker and LFE signals, then I'm not sure why you'd want to abandon that for movies.

True. Ok, so to sum up, you say leave the Mains on LARGE and move the LPF in the Marantz up to 250Hz. Is that correct? Now where do I set the Crossover on the REL? And how high should the High Level Volume on the REL be? The instructions are a bit vague on this.

Thanks again!
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post #2367 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 11:26 PM
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^^
IMO, the only good reason to set the L+R mains - including the REL via high level - to LARGE would be if you're NOT using the LFE input of the REL at the same time.

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post #2368 of 11958 Old 01-29-2013, 11:27 PM
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And that's the debate!
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post #2369 of 11958 Old 01-30-2013, 12:00 AM
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Does this 8801 pre-amp support input "stacking"?

I'm considering switching out my Integra DHC-80.1 for this Marantz. I've never been happy with the Integra. But the Integra does have many, many inputs - and I have many, many devices.

For example, I want to hook up both a PS3 and a PS2 - but they need to "share" an input since the 8801 really doesn't have enough inputs for me. SO - with the 8801 - can I "stack" them on the same input?

Basically, can I:

- plug in the PS3 HDMI cable to the "GAME" HDMI input
- and plug in the PS2 component video and Fiber Optic audio inputs and also assign those to "GAME"?

- and then - if the PS3 is on (and the PS2 is off) - play/watch the PS3 via the 8801 "GAME" selection?
- and also - if the PS3 is off and the PS2 is on - play/watch the PS2 via that same 8801 "GAME" selection? Maybe pressing an input select to change the video from looking at the HDMI to instead look at the component video (when both are assigned to "GAME")?

That's what I mean be stacking. And I may need to stack on a few different inputs in order to plug in all the sources I need to plug in...

Thanks,
Bill
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post #2370 of 11958 Old 01-30-2013, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrang View Post

Audyssey can be tricky to get right - no one is "one and done"!

Head over to the Audyssey thread for more details, but make sure there is minimal ambient noise, probe facing the ceiling, ear level, recline seats if applicable (I like to put a blanket of the leather as well), clear line of site to all speakers, assure the mic is isolated from vibrations during the test, try the recommended testing pattern and spacing, etc...


Theres something I don't understand, you put planket on the leather, other I have head mention they removed the seats while using roomkorrektion. Should the messurements be taken as the room is when used?
If in your case you take away the soundreflections of the leather, shouldn't it been corrected with all the rooms faults?

I have now bought a stand for the mic, so I don't hold it myself anymore. But shouldt I be then sitting in the sitting posision, as I'm part of the room when I'm listening?
I have a leather reclainer. As some sound will reflect off the back and onto the floor, I should then be sitting in the normal listening posision to get the most accurat results?
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Ken Kreisel Dxd 12012 Subwoofer , Marantz Av8801 , Receivers Amplifiers , Audyssey , Integra
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