Emotiva XMC-1 coming soon (please limit posts to technical issues) - Page 15 - AVS Forum
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post #421 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post

Anyway back to tech talk.
If there is speculation to be made on the XMC it should be on why they brought up the topic Dolby Atmos now vs earlier when the tech was being announced.
I think they set up that separate Atmos thread, sensibly, to get the discussion out of the XMC-1 thread. All it was doing there was highlighting that the XMC-1 didn't have Atmos capability. Whether you want Atmos or not, it was pointing out over and over that Atmos wasn't ever going to be a possibility on the XMC-1, revealing what some will see as a shortcoming.

My take on it, FWIW, is that the XMC-1 has had such a long and difficult gestation that when the birth became tantalisingly close they couldn't even bear to contemplate delaying it yet again in order to add what was at that time a little understood technology called Dolby Atmos. I am guessing, and that's all it is, that they also, like many people, underestimated the importance of Atmos in the home theater environment and the impact that it will have on everything from soundbars, to 5.1 systems to 13.1 systems, to Netflx streaming services and so on. So, if they were even aware of Atmos, they took the decision to plow on without it. Later, as the Atmos interest gathered momentum, they may have realized that this was a potential error on their part and so took a spin-line that Atmos was only for people "interested in festooning their home with speakers" (which is untrue for various reasons) and/or that it "won’t be coming for years" (also clearly untrue). Then, as more and more information about Atmos was leaked, it became harder and harder to deny its forthcoming existence and benefits. So they moved the discussion from the XMC-1 thread, which IMO was a sensible decision.

Imagine if the XMC-1 had been a truly revolutionary product instead of the (Dirac excepted, maybe) me-too product that it is and had featured capability for 13 channels, Atmos and SOTA REQ. Wow! What a product that could have been. Oh - Denon will be releasing such a product in September... (but with XT32 instead of Dirac). To me, that announcement in the French press about the Atmos-enabled Denons which will be on the shelves this fall was the death blow to the XMC-1.

There has been speculation that the XMC-1 will be quietly allowed to die in the privacy of its own assembly plant, and I have some sympathy with that POV. But my own feeling is that we will see some units released eventually and then it will be allowed to die in the privacy of a few customers' homes. Only time will tell which is right.
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post #422 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 06:34 AM
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This may be ambitious, but I'm more interested in a (presumed) follow up with more channels, Atmos, and HDMI 2.

All that and Dirac for a reasonable price (not $20k) is much more tantalizing.
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post #423 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 06:46 AM
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This may be ambitious, but I'm more interested in a (presumed) follow up with more channels, Atmos, and HDMI 2.

All that and Dirac for a reasonable price (not $20k) is much more tantalizing.
Good luck on waiting for a follow-up! First we'll need to see something to actually follow

And although Dirac have a stellar reputation, remember that at this time not a single scrap of information has been revealed, TTBOMK, about the Dirac LE version which is going to be implemented in the XMC-1. The big question is will it be better than Audyssey's XT32, which seems to have ceased development now and has not been updated for years.

I am hopeful that the XMC-1 will see the light of day, and that Dirac LE will be everything we hope it will be, just for the reason that I hope it would then encourage Dirac to partner with other AVS manufacturers like Denon and Onkyo. The latter have already dropped Audyssey on some of their new products and replaced it with the inferior on-board chip version. We can only speculate on why this is the case, but clearly Audyssey charge a license fee for MultEQ and clearly Onkyo are not paying this fee any more on the units affected. We may put two and two together there and make four. It would be terrific if Dirac LE was better than XT32 and started appearing on units from mainstream manufacturers.

But it's all speculation. Until (and if) XMC-1s start shipping, we can only guess.
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post #424 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 06:58 AM
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It would have been insanity for Emo to delay the XMC-1 yet again for Dolby Atmos. If they actually release it next weekend at Emofest in Atlanta, and it proves to be essentially bug free (and sounds great) they will sell a lot of them. They'll be positioned right next to the Krell Foundation, with potentially better room correction, at less than one third the cost.

If the hardware and code platform is truly modular they've got a good start on a new processor with more channels and Atmos.

The XMC-1 has to ship SOON, or their processor business is toast, IMHO.

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post #425 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 07:34 AM
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So what technical issues did you have in mind to discuss?

Keith, I was referring to the request Mark Rubin made recently (posts #318 and #347 ) to keep the discussion technical.


But, since you asked...a few things technical:
1) We knew from Emofest '13 that the XMC-1 would not come with the full version of DIRAC live. They (and Michael R. of DIRAC) said that there would be fewer options on the version to be released in the XMC-1, so - that's the LE version - whatever it is in detail we don't know yet. But, for those wanting a full version, they would be able to get one from DIRAC (IIRC, at reduced price) and use it with the XMC-1. I am interested to see what options are and are not in the XMC-1 version, and to see if the full version comes at reduced price - what that price is.
2) We already know they had also been working on variations of the TI platform for potentially a lower priced version and a higher priced version. I could see the higher priced one coming with equipment well suited for Atmos, and I don't think it will take them very long to design one. We already know they had a basic design for an "RMC" but were waiting for the XMC development completion before they really got into details. I don't plan to get an XMC anyway - I was already going to wait and see what other TI variants come out before I do anything. Who knows...one of those might even leverage the new DIRAC Unison technology.
3) on what's holding them up on the XMC-1 at this point - who really knows. And, they may well and truly be in full bore production right now...again, who knows. But, if they are not actually in production, I am fairly confident it's not a design issue at this point. The two at Emofest were working quite well - very stable. There was some coding to be done on menus and such, but I doubt that was a major challenge for MDS and Emotiva. So, if they are not actually cranking them out like hotcakes right now, my bet would be they have an issue with a part not working properly (as in, quality outage on incoming parts and not a design issue). Again - who knows. It's all speculation. We'll see.
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post #426 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 07:51 AM
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I read somewhere that Dirac Unison was so complex to set up that it would probably have to be limited to commercial applications (ie cars) and maybe very high end pro installations. For example, it sounds like it needs hundreds or even close to a thousand measurement positions. Maybe it could come with a Roomba with mic stand mount.
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post #427 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 08:42 AM
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Flavio of Dirac posted this blurb about Unison elsewhere on this forum:
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It is not a product as of now, the tuning is really complex to release to the public so if/when we make it a product it will probably be for manufacturers, installers and pro markets only for very high-end systems.

Things are easier in a fixed environment (a predefined car model with unlimited available measurements, i.e. 900 as you will see) so the first licensee to use Dirac Unison is the Volvo Car Group making the technology available in the all-new Volvo XC90 with a Bowers & Wilkins audio system.

Sanjay
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post #428 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 09:53 AM
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Hmmm...great technical discussion!
It's difficult to discuss the technical aspects of a product that hasn’t been released yet and for which the manufacturer has given very little information, other than bare bones features. The one tech issue that we are all desperately waiting for is how their implementation of Dirac is working out - but despite them saying they have shipped units, they apparently are unable to confirm at this time just how their version of Dirac will differ from, say, Audyssey XT32. Dirac Live, for example, is a mixed phase solution and XT32 is a minimum phase solution and this makes Dirac, potentially, very interesting to many people. But we are told that the XMC-1 won’t have Dirac Live, but Dirac LE, but then there is a stony silence as to what Dirac LE actually is, with even the representative of Dirac refusing to comment.

So what technical issues did you have in mind to discuss?
What's the difference btw mixed phase and minimum phase? Feel free to dumb it down for me😉
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post #429 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 10:19 AM
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It would have been insanity for Emo to delay the XMC-1 yet again for Dolby Atmos. If they actually release it next weekend at Emofest in Atlanta, and it proves to be essentially bug free (and sounds great) they will sell a lot of them. They'll be positioned right next to the Krell Foundation, with potentially better room correction, at less than one third the cost.

If the hardware and code platform is truly modular they've got a good start on a new processor with more channels and Atmos.

The XMC-1 has to ship SOON, or their processor business is toast, IMHO.
It doesn’t matter how modular the design is. They are stuck with a backplate that caters for 7 speakers. To go to 9, 11 or 13 will require a new backplate - no way will that ever come under the banner of a 'module upgrade'.

IMO their processor business is already toast, but it's just my opinion.
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post #430 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 10:25 AM
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So what technical issues did you have in mind to discuss?
Keith, I was referring to the request Mark Rubin made recently (posts #318 and #347 ) to keep the discussion technical.

But, since you asked...a few things technical:
1) We knew from Emofest '13 that the XMC-1 would not come with the full version of DIRAC live. They (and Michael R. of DIRAC) said that there would be fewer options on the version to be released in the XMC-1, so - that's the LE version - whatever it is in detail we don't know yet. But, for those wanting a full version, they would be able to get one from DIRAC (IIRC, at reduced price) and use it with the XMC-1. I am interested to see what options are and are not in the XMC-1 version, and to see if the full version comes at reduced price - what that price is.
Sure - the point I was making is that the unit has allegedly shipped but still there is no word from Emotiva as to the tech capabilities or spec of their version of Dirac. Nor is it clear that the unit will be upgradeable to Dirac Live for the payment of an extra fee. Maybe it will. Maybe it won't.

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2) We already know they had also been working on variations of the TI platform for potentially a lower priced version and a higher priced version. I could see the higher priced one coming with equipment well suited for Atmos, and I don't think it will take them very long to design one. We already know they had a basic design for an "RMC" but were waiting for the XMC development completion before they really got into details. I don't plan to get an XMC anyway - I was already going to wait and see what other TI variants come out before I do anything. Who knows...one of those might even leverage the new DIRAC Unison technology.
Again, it's all speculation and 'maybes'. They have taken several years to bring the XMC-1 to market, and still haven't done it at the time of this post. So the idea of them going beyond the XMC-1 is just mind-boggling to me.

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3) on what's holding them up on the XMC-1 at this point - who really knows. And, they may well and truly be in full bore production right now...again, who knows. But, if they are not actually in production, I am fairly confident it's not a design issue at this point. The two at Emofest were working quite well - very stable. There was some coding to be done on menus and such, but I doubt that was a major challenge for MDS and Emotiva. So, if they are not actually cranking them out like hotcakes right now, my bet would be they have an issue with a part not working properly (as in, quality outage on incoming parts and not a design issue). Again - who knows. It's all speculation. We'll see.
As you say, nobody knows what the further delay is. All we know is that units "shipped in April" and more "shipped in May", so these will have the defective parts if your analysis is correct. Great start huh? But I don't really believe any units have been shipped anyway so that is moot. Again, my main point is the deafening silence since April from Emotiva. Normally they can't keep Big Dan's mouth shut, but since April, nothing. No news, no announcements, no updates, no deliveries. Doesn't look good does it?
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post #431 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 10:29 AM
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Hmmm...great technical discussion!
It's difficult to discuss the technical aspects of a product that hasn’t been released yet and for which the manufacturer has given very little information, other than bare bones features. The one tech issue that we are all desperately waiting for is how their implementation of Dirac is working out - but despite them saying they have shipped units, they apparently are unable to confirm at this time just how their version of Dirac will differ from, say, Audyssey XT32. Dirac Live, for example, is a mixed phase solution and XT32 is a minimum phase solution and this makes Dirac, potentially, very interesting to many people. But we are told that the XMC-1 won’t have Dirac Live, but Dirac LE, but then there is a stony silence as to what Dirac LE actually is, with even the representative of Dirac refusing to comment.

So what technical issues did you have in mind to discuss?
What's the difference btw mixed phase and minimum phase? Feel free to dumb it down for me😉
I'm not sure it is possible to explain simply. At the most basic level I guess, it is generally regarded that a mixed phase solution will be more sophisticated. And by extension, give a better result, in-room.

This article from Dirac attempts to explain it:

http://www.dirac.se/media/12044/on_room_correction.pdf
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post #432 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 12:34 PM
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Keith, sure my comments are speculation...just as your comments on it are.

As far as their pre/pro business being done, there seem to be plenty of people quite happy with their Emotiva pre/pro's, and their UMC-200 appears to be selling well. And, they have had multiple pre/pro's based on the cirrus platform. The TI platform being modular looks like it will be even easier to make spinoffs from, esp. given they are working with MDS. Personally, I would not be the slightest bit surprised if the first spinoff isnreasdy in 6-9 months.

Re. Dan being quiet, whether he is or not, I take any timing comment from his with a grain of salt. He's a dreamer, not practical enough to be realistic on timing estimates.
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post #433 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 01:12 PM
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Imagine if the XMC-1 had been a truly revolutionary product instead of the (Dirac excepted, maybe) me-too product that it is and had featured capability for 13 channels, Atmos and SOTA REQ. Wow! What a product that could have been. Oh - Denon will be releasing such a product in September... (but with XT32 instead of Dirac). To me, that announcement in the French press about the Atmos-enabled Denons which will be on the shelves this fall was the death blow to the XMC-1.
Pardon my ignorance but what is SOTA REQ?
I did a search and what i came up with wasn't audio related.

And does anyone have the model number and price of the Denon unit you referred to?
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post #434 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 01:19 PM
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Regarding min phase, linear phase, and mixed phase...here is my understanding. If I have this wrong, please correct me.

Filters can be created to alter the amplitude and time (phase) according to frequency. The frequency selecing filters can cause time smearing (ringing), particularly when they filters have steep slopes. With a linear phase filter, the time smearing will be centered on an impulse, but with a min phase filter, the time smearing will happen after the impulse. The crossovers, drivers, speaker cabinet, and the room itself act as filters - sometimes linear phase, sometimes min phase, sometimes in-between. When doing correction, it's best to match what the room and equipment are doing to cancel them out. When doing equalization, usually min phase sounds best, but sometimes linear phase works better to avoid weird phase interactions.

Anyway, my understanding is that Dirac identifies what the equipment and room are doing, and use the appropriate type of filters to make the matching corrections.

I have been using Dirac Live for about a month, and and love it. It's difficult to say how much of it is due to the mixed phase approach and how much is due to the really nice interface and iteration for tuning the target curves. I suspect it's both. I just know that I'm much happier with the results than what I was getting with XT32.

I just wish it had more channels, routing, and crossover capabilities, but I couldn't imagine dropping $25k on a Datasat.

One of these days, when I have the time, I'd like to experiment with JRiver + Audiolense XO.
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post #435 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 01:37 PM
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It doesn’t matter how modular the design is. They are stuck with a backplate that caters for 7 speakers. To go to 9, 11 or 13 will require a new backplate - no way will that ever come under the banner of a 'module upgrade'.

IMO their processor business is already toast, but it's just my opinion.
I mean modular in the sense that they have a well defined control and software interface between major systems. The same control and software glue could be the basis of a completely new design, or make an HDMI board swap for the XMC-1 easier to accomplish. Lonnie blabbered something along those lines a while back.

That's a big if though. It'd take some serious engineering to get that right.

If their processor business isn't toast yet, it sure seems to be getting crusty with a little green fuzz around the edges.
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post #436 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 07:49 PM
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I mean modular in the sense that they have a well defined control and software interface between major systems. The same control and software glue could be the basis of a completely new design, or make an HDMI board swap for the XMC-1 easier to accomplish. Lonnie blabbered something along those lines a while back.

That's a big if though. It'd take some serious engineering to get that right.

If their processor business isn't toast yet, it sure seems to be getting crusty with a little green fuzz around the edges.
I don't think it'd be that serious an engineering effort at all. If the XMC-1 seems the light of day, I think getting a higher end processor like the RMC-1, and a lower end processer like the UMC-500 (or whatever they'll call it) will be trivial. At that point, it's pretty plug and play with swappable parts, with most of the major expense (R&D, setting up manufacturing, etc...) already done. That's why Emotiva has stuck behind this project, even though it looks like a disaster from the outside. If they can finally pull it off, the end flexibility should justify the growing pains.
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I mean modular in the sense that they have a well defined control and software interface between major systems. The same control and software glue could be the basis of a completely new design, or make an HDMI board swap for the XMC-1 easier to accomplish. Lonnie blabbered something along those lines a while back.

That's a big if though. It'd take some serious engineering to get that right.

If their processor business isn't toast yet, it sure seems to be getting crusty with a little green fuzz around the edges.
I don't think it'd be that serious an engineering effort at all. If the XMC-1 seems the light of day, I think getting a higher end processor like the RMC-1, and a lower end processer like the UMC-500 (or whatever they'll call it) will be trivial. At that point, it's pretty plug and play with swappable parts, with most of the major expense (R&D, setting up manufacturing, etc...) already done. That's why Emotiva has stuck behind this project, even though it looks like a disaster from the outside. If they can finally pull it off, the end flexibility should justify the growing pains.
Based on past performance, the myriad of technical issues seem overwhelming to Emotiva such that their processor equipment is either buggy beyond the typical industry standards or isn't delivered as promised.

Part of their problem is that they do not appear to be following any industry accepted standards for quality control and project management despite efforts to point them in that direction through personal correspondence. There is also a gap in technical expertise at that level which Marcus has adeptly pointed out in several previous posts.

Simply put, they are in over their collective heads and they don't understand their limitations.
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post #438 of 1211 Old 06-14-2014, 11:24 PM
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Based on past performance, the myriad of technical issues seem overwhelming to Emotiva such that their processor equipment is either buggy beyond the typical industry standards or isn't delivered as promised.

Part of their problem is that they do not appear to be following any industry accepted standards for quality control and project management despite efforts to point them in that direction through personal correspondence. There is also a gap in technical expertise at that level which Marcus has adeptly pointed out in several previous posts.

Simply put, they are in over their collective heads and they don't understand their limitations.
I don't disagree with any of that. That's not my point. If Emotiva releases the XMC-1, and if it's popular enough, they'll be able to swap out a few part, update the software, put it in a new chassis, and call it the RMC-1. None of their previous processors were built in a way to allow them to do that. That's why they've stuck with this project, despite the black eye it's giving them.
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post #439 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 05:15 AM
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Imagine if the XMC-1 had been a truly revolutionary product instead of the (Dirac excepted, maybe) me-too product that it is and had featured capability for 13 channels, Atmos and SOTA REQ. Wow! What a product that could have been. Oh - Denon will be releasing such a product in September... (but with XT32 instead of Dirac). To me, that announcement in the French press about the Atmos-enabled Denons which will be on the shelves this fall was the death blow to the XMC-1.
Pardon my ignorance but what is SOTA REQ?
I did a search and what i came up with wasn't audio related.

And does anyone have the model number and price of the Denon unit you referred to?
SOTA = State of the art

REQ = Room Equalisation

Denon x7200 is the top of the range unit - available January 2015. Units lower in the range, availoable September this year.

Price not yet announced for USA. European prices indicate broad US prices in line with outgoing Denon units.

Other information on these, including price, earlier in this thread.
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post #440 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 05:36 AM
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Based on past performance, the myriad of technical issues seem overwhelming to Emotiva such that their processor equipment is either buggy beyond the typical industry standards or isn't delivered as promised.

Part of their problem is that they do not appear to be following any industry accepted standards for quality control and project management despite efforts to point them in that direction through personal correspondence. There is also a gap in technical expertise at that level which Marcus has adeptly pointed out in several previous posts.

Simply put, they are in over their collective heads and they don't understand their limitations.
Yes, I think that is a fair analysis. The fact that their chief engineer failed entirely to understand how bass management is meant to work (wrt to the UMC-1) -- and when it was explained to him by someone who did understand it, he defended the indefensible by saying it was meant to work the way it did -- shows a remarkable deficiency in their technical abilities IMO. Similarly it is beyond understanding how they managed to release that unit with so many obvious failings and bugs - pointing to non-existent in-house testing and quality control. Biting off more than they can chew would make a relevant corporate strapline for them
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post #441 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 05:56 AM
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Some speculation of things Dirac LE might mean:
1) Limited to working with the XMC-1, not PC output devices.
2) Limited sample rates to 44.1/48khz (like most Audyssey implementations), rather than supporting 96khz.
3) Uses reduced FIR filter sizes, relying on the IIR filters more.
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post #442 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 06:09 AM
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Some speculation of things Dirac LE might mean:
1) Limited to working with the XMC-1, not PC output devices.
2) Limited sample rates to 44.1/48khz (like most Audyssey implementations), rather than supporting 96khz.
3) Uses reduced FIR filter sizes, relying on the IIR filters more.
The sad thing is that we shouldn’t be reduced to speculating on the features of a unit that, according to Emo, was shipped two months ago. Regardless of who they were shipped to, reviewers, beta testers, staff etc, if units have been shipped then specs are known and it just fuels the fire for Emo to keep schtum on what they are.
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post #443 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 07:46 AM
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Emo truly shat on themselves with the XMC-1. I feel sorry for any early adopters as I am well aware of Emo's track record with processors. I don't really see a good release for Emo. It will be released, the Emo lovers will buy it, do all the beta testing and troubleshooting. If Emo manages to have produced a good to very good product then some other people may buy one. However, by that time the other bigger companies and more well established higher end companies will have processors that are much, much more up to date and there will be more competition.

I saw the appeal of the XMC-1 3 years ago. I don't see it any longer.
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post #444 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 09:36 AM
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Personally, I hope it's a huge success, so we'll see Dirac in more prepros (Emotiva or otherwise) with more options at more price levels.
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post #445 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 09:40 AM
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Hope and reality are oftentimes far apart when it comes to Emotiva and prepros. At $2000 for a dated speaker configuration/feature set and a watered down version of Dirac, there really are many superior options out there, let alone what's coming. It never hurts to hope, though.
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post #446 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 09:42 AM
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Was hoping for a fathers day gift from Big D , bah no such luck.
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post #447 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 10:10 AM
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Personally, I hope it's a huge success, so we'll see Dirac in more prepros (Emotiva or otherwise) with more options at more price levels.
Sure, it would be like a manufacturer introducing a $199 AVR with Audyssey XT32. Who wouldn't want it to succeed, even just to get more XT32 options at that price level. But if that AVR was limited to 5 speakers and could only decode legacy codecs (DD and DTS), then it would make some consumers think twice about buying it, even if they really liked XT32.

Sanjay
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post #448 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 10:38 AM
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Hope and reality are oftentimes far apart when it comes to Emotiva and prepros. At $2000 for a dated speaker configuration/feature set and a watered down version of Dirac, there really are many superior options out there, let alone what's coming. It never hurts to hope, though.
what do you mean by dated...? not greater the 7.1? If so, then consider this.. .not every one has the room size or sometimes budget for 11.2/13.2 etc. Second I do see the logic in always paying for features one will never use.
For those who have the room size and pocket it is wonderful....and please share
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post #449 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Hope and reality are oftentimes far apart when it comes to Emotiva and prepros. At $2000 for a dated speaker configuration/feature set and a watered down version of Dirac, there really are many superior options out there, let alone what's coming. It never hurts to hope, though.
what do you mean by dated...? not greater the 7.1? If so, then consider this.. .not every one has the room size or sometimes budget for 11.2/13.2 etc. Second I do see the logic in always paying for features one will never use.
For those who have the room size and pocket it is wonderful....and please share
If you don't have the room size or budget, then there are still better alternatives available. $2000 is a lot to pay in this market particularly for a unit that lacks so many of the common features for this commodity.

Additionally, other than the "Emo can do no wrong fanboys", most consumers also would not want to put up with buggy firmware and firmware upgrades that would likely last at least a year after release which has been the hallmark trait of Emo processors.
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post #450 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
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Personally, I hope it's a huge success, so we'll see Dirac in more prepros (Emotiva or otherwise) with more options at more price levels.
Sure, it would be like a manufacturer introducing a $199 AVR with Audyssey XT32. Who wouldn't want it to succeed, even just to get more XT32 options at that price level. But if that AVR was limited to 5 speakers and could only decode legacy codecs (DD and DTS), then it would make some consumers think twice about buying it, even if they really liked XT32.
That's me exactly. Even if their version of Dirac is brilliant, the lack of features I need would still prevent me from buying it. I hope that Dirac finds its way into other reasonably priced units, and if it does, as a result of their venture with Emotiva, then some good will have come out of the XMC-1 regardless of what it is like or even if it fails to appear at all.
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