Emotiva XMC-1 coming soon (please limit posts to technical issues) - Page 16 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 536Likes
 
Thread Tools
post #451 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 12:02 PM
Newbie
 
kofiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
If you don't have the room size or budget, then there are still better alternatives available. $2000 is a lot to pay in this market particularly for a unit that lacks so many of the common features for this commodity.

Additionally, other than the "Emo can do no wrong fanboys", most consumers also would not want to put up with buggy firmware and firmware upgrades that would likely last at least a year after release which has been the hallmark trait of Emo processors.
A very valid point.
I believe in the coming years (hopefully) there will be two markets (deep pockets high end and costco customers need not apply)...

1. those who want or need and have the spacing for a full featured pre/pro or AVR such Denon's x7200, Marantz, Yamaha or even Anthem and
2. Those who for what ever reason want a no frills pre/pro that simply provides excellent sound/video and fast switching, with or with truly balanced outs... eg. UMC 200 (no xlr) good value or nuforce (maybe same base as the UMC) all for $600 to 1000 depending on chip sets...

My point goes to the excellent Oppo BD-105.. given its capabilities very few would "need" anything else... simply pass everything through - no additional processing to projector or flat screen. Just my humble opinion...
-cheers
xcapri79 likes this.
kofiv is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #452 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 12:11 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
kbarnes701's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Main Listening Positon
Posts: 18,816
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1960 Post(s)
Liked: 2016
Quote:
Originally Posted by kofiv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
If you don't have the room size or budget, then there are still better alternatives available. $2000 is a lot to pay in this market particularly for a unit that lacks so many of the common features for this commodity.

Additionally, other than the "Emo can do no wrong fanboys", most consumers also would not want to put up with buggy firmware and firmware upgrades that would likely last at least a year after release which has been the hallmark trait of Emo processors.
A very valid point.
I believe in the coming years (hopefully) there will be two markets (deep pockets high end and costco customers need not apply)...

1. those who want or need and have the spacing for a full featured pre/pro or AVR such Denon's x7200, Marantz, Yamaha or even Anthem and
2. Those who for what ever reason want a no frills pre/pro that simply provides excellent sound/video and fast switching, with or with truly balanced outs... eg. UMC 200 (no xlr) good value or nuforce (maybe same base as the UMC) all for $600 to 1000 depending on chip sets...

My point goes to the excellent Oppo BD-105.. given its capabilities very few would "need" anything else... simply pass everything through - no additional processing to projector or flat screen. Just my humble opinion...
-cheers
I wonder if Oppo might add on-board Atmos processing? They seem to have realised that there's not much more they can do with a Bluray player, hence their venture with HDMI inputs on the 103/105, so it might only be a small conceptual step to turning the BD player into the heart of they system as you describe. Given their quality and professionalism, it would be a terrific step forward IMO.
xcapri79 likes this.
kbarnes701 is offline  
post #453 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 12:21 PM
Newbie
 
kofiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I wonder if Oppo might add on-board Atmos processing? They seem to have realised that there's not much more they can do with a Bluray player, hence their venture with HDMI inputs on the 103/105, so it might only be a small conceptual step to turning the BD player into the heart of they system as you describe. Given their quality and professionalism, it would be a terrific step forward IMO.
now your are just playing with my emotions....
this would be a coup across the industry.... it would simplify everyone's gear... the challenge would be legacy inputs which some are flirting with (I give them up). aside from that Atmos, hdmi 2 (7-8 inputs and two outs), fully balanced outs - basic 7.1/7.2 and high 13.2... when can I send my check?!
xcapri79 and kbarnes701 like this.
kofiv is offline  
post #454 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 12:30 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kofiv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Hope and reality are oftentimes far apart when it comes to Emotiva and prepros. At $2000 for a dated speaker configuration/feature set and a watered down version of Dirac, there really are many superior options out there, let alone what's coming. It never hurts to hope, though.
what do you mean by dated...? not greater the 7.1? If so, then consider this.. .not every one has the room size or sometimes budget for 11.2/13.2 etc. Second I do see the logic in always paying for features one will never use.
For those who have the room size and pocket it is wonderful....and please share
If you don't have the room size or budget, then there are still better alternatives available. $2000 is a lot to pay in this market particularly for a unit that lacks so many of the common features for this commodity.


Also, what features are missing that you just have to have?
Additionally, other than the "Emo can do no wrong fanboys", most consumers also would not want to put up with buggy firmware and firmware upgrades that would likely last at least a year after release which has been the hallmark trait of Emo processors.
Just curious. What firmware upgrades have you made to any of your components that improved its' performance?

Last edited by MUDCAT45; 06-15-2014 at 12:38 PM.
MUDCAT45 is online now  
post #455 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 12:41 PM
Advanced Member
 
Bluescale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Oregon
Posts: 936
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Just curious. What firmware upgrades have you made to any of your components that improved its' performance?
With the UMC-1, firmware updates were certainly necessary. I think he's assuming the same will be true for the XMC-1.
xcapri79 likes this.
Bluescale is offline  
post #456 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 01:56 PM
Senior Member
 
xcapri79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North of New Orleans, LA
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kofiv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
Hope and reality are oftentimes far apart when it comes to Emotiva and prepros. At $2000 for a dated speaker configuration/feature set and a watered down version of Dirac, there really are many superior options out there, let alone what's coming. It never hurts to hope, though.
what do you mean by dated...? not greater the 7.1? If so, then consider this.. .not every one has the room size or sometimes budget for 11.2/13.2 etc. Second I do see the logic in always paying for features one will never use.
For those who have the room size and pocket it is wonderful....and please share
If you don't have the room size or budget, then there are still better alternatives available. $2000 is a lot to pay in this market particularly for a unit that lacks so many of the common features for this commodity.


Also, what features are missing that you just have to have?
Additionally, other than the "Emo can do no wrong fanboys", most consumers also would not want to put up with buggy firmware and firmware upgrades that would likely last at least a year after release which has been the hallmark trait of Emo processors.
Just curious. What firmware upgrades have you made to any of your components that improved its' performance?
Really are you kidding?! You mean you accept the latent bugs in their equipment? The bugs have been well documented in this forum and in the "Lounge".

In your view, "Emo can do no wrong!". Right? You seem to defend them no matter what.
xcapri79 is offline  
post #457 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 02:12 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 179
[quote=xcapri79;24989962][quote=MUDCAT45;24988258]
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kofiv View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post

Also, what features are missing that you just have to have?
Additionally, other than the "Emo can do no wrong fanboys", most consumers also would not want to put up with buggy firmware and firmware upgrades that would likely last at least a year after release which has been the hallmark trait of Emo processors.
Just curious. What firmware upgrades have you made to any of your components that improved its' performance?
Really are you kidding?! You mean you accept the latent bugs in their equipment? The bugs have been well documented in this forum and in the "Lounge".

In your view, "Emo can do no wrong!". Right? You seem to defend them no matter what.
Again, what features do you have to have that are missing?
Again, what firmware upgrades have improved your system?

Emo has done a lot of things wrong that impact some users but not all. I do not use headphones or room EQ (latest sounds as good as XT32 IMO), I am not defending them if they are not for you, however that is no reason to say they are not for anyone.
MUDCAT45 is online now  
post #458 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 02:39 PM
Senior Member
 
xcapri79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North of New Orleans, LA
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Their processors are fine for their fanboys. No further comments are needed.

But, let me put it this way. I wouldn't give one to a friend or relative. Why give away aggravation? Indeed, I have given away Pioneer, Sony, Harman Kardon, and Onkyo receivers to friends and family.

Last edited by xcapri79; 06-15-2014 at 02:44 PM.
xcapri79 is offline  
post #459 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 03:10 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 146
[quote=kofiv;24987538]
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
I believe in the coming years (hopefully) there will be two markets (deep pockets high end and costco customers need not apply)...

1. those who want or need and have the spacing for a full featured pre/pro or AVR such Denon's x7200, Marantz, Yamaha or even Anthem and
2. Those who for what ever reason want a no frills pre/pro that simply provides excellent sound/video and fast switching, with or with truly balanced outs... eg. UMC 200 (no xlr) good value or nuforce (maybe same base as the UMC) all for $600 to 1000 depending on chip sets...

My point goes to the excellent Oppo BD-105.. given its capabilities very few would "need" anything else... simply pass everything through - no additional processing to projector or flat screen. Just my humble opinion...
-cheers

With respect to development of automated or semi-automated multichannel room correction, we already have two markets IMO:

1) Consumer equipment that's more or less frozen in place for the past half decade. That would be Audyssey XT32 (which is substantially the same as it was in 2010), MCACC that's only offering a very simple band of Sub EQ that's effectively just 31 and 63 Hz, YPAO that doesn't EQ the sub extensively, and ARC, which may do so but is kind of/sort of black box and doesn't provide automated distance.
2) Uber high end repurposed pro audio to consumers, with continual development of the underlying EQ algorithm as well as an ability to address impulse response, provide flexible target curve editing, and esoteric features like Remapping (Trinnov) or Dirac Unison (which may or may not be in an actual product).


What makes #2 attractive is that both Datasat and Trinnov, possibly joined by Storm Audio with the SSP series, have expandability as an option to bump the number of channels up to 32, which is ideal for Atmos and other 3D audio as they evolve in the future.

Trinnov in particular is developing something revolutionary with their Altitude, a PC-core based processing of codecs, where new codecs can be handled with software updates. This has HDMI support as well as pro-style DB25 support, and can be upgraded by adding or replacing the relevant I/O boards. But it's going to be a $20K+ solution.

Dirac LE, if it exists at all, would fit a sort-of middle ground between these extremes, as would the MiniDSP or similar with REW to import generated filters.

Last edited by sdrucker; 06-15-2014 at 07:36 PM.
sdrucker is online now  
post #460 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 04:05 PM
AVS Special Member
 
MUDCAT45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,438
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Liked: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
Their processors are fine for their fanboys. No further comments are needed.

But, let me put it this way. I wouldn't give one to a friend or relative. Why give away aggravation? Indeed, I have given away Pioneer, Sony, Harman Kardon, and Onkyo receivers to friends and family.
After listening to most every brand AVR and numerous processors over the years I ran across Emotiva. I no longer have a desire to try and get better processing. If that makes me a fanboy then I am one. OTH I have no allegiance to any brand and if something better hits the market I will switch brands.

I would rather be a fanboy than one who has spouts off with no hands on experience.
The firmware upgrades that you mentioned must be of no value since you still can't answer a simple question.
MUDCAT45 is online now  
post #461 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 04:21 PM
Super Moderator
 
markrubin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Jersey Shore
Posts: 23,027
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 116 Post(s)
Liked: 426
thanks to those members who are sticking to technical issues: this would be good advice for all
markrubin is offline  
post #462 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 06:55 PM
Senior Member
 
xcapri79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: North of New Orleans, LA
Posts: 299
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 76 Post(s)
Liked: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUDCAT45 View Post
Just curious. What firmware upgrades have you made to any of your components that improved its' performance?
With the UMC-1, firmware updates were certainly necessary. I think he's assuming the same will be true for the XMC-1.
That is so. For example, Emotiva also provided for significant and recommended firmware updates for the UMC-1 and UMC-200 which were rather cumbersome for some.

https://emotiva.com/resources/update...2011_11_23.pdf

https://emotiva.com/resources/update...2013_05_16.pdf

Implementation of a new processor design with complicated room correction will need solid engineering management and quality assurance testing. Some delays are understandable to a point, however, there must be some new snags in the production process to cause additional shipping delays from those that were previously promised. This is troublesome to prospective purchasers.
With the advent of the revolutionary Atmos designs that will come out in this fall as kbarnes701 has noted, purchasers who have waited will likely wait a few more months for HDMI 2.0 and Atmos based processors/AVR's.

Last edited by xcapri79; 06-15-2014 at 08:09 PM.
xcapri79 is offline  
post #463 of 1211 Old 06-15-2014, 09:27 PM
Newbie
 
kofiv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Liked: 13
[quote=sdrucker;24991370]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kofiv View Post


With respect to development of automated or semi-automated multichannel room correction, we already have two markets IMO:

1) Consumer equipment that's more or less frozen in place for the past half decade. That would be Audyssey XT32 (which is substantially the same as it was in 2010), MCACC that's only offering a very simple band of Sub EQ that's effectively just 31 and 63 Hz, YPAO that doesn't EQ the sub extensively, and ARC, which may do so but is kind of/sort of black box and doesn't provide automated distance.
2) Uber high end repurposed pro audio to consumers, with continual development of the underlying EQ algorithm as well as an ability to address impulse response, provide flexible target curve editing, and esoteric features like Remapping (Trinnov) or Dirac Unison (which may or may not be in an actual product).


What makes #2 attractive is that both Datasat and Trinnov, possibly joined by Storm Audio with the SSP series, have expandability as an option to bump the number of channels up to 32, which is ideal for Atmos and other 3D audio as they evolve in the future.

Trinnov in particular is developing something revolutionary with their Altitude, a PC-core based processing of codecs, where new codecs can be handled with software updates. This has HDMI support as well as pro-style DB25 support, and can be upgraded by adding or replacing the relevant I/O boards. But it's going to be a $20K+ solution.

Dirac LE, if it exists at all, would fit a sort-of middle ground between these extremes, as would the MiniDSP or similar with REW to import generated filters.
Absolutely agree with respect to room correction. My point was to pre/pros and avrs them selves with room correction and multiple features. Some want 11 or 13 even 15 channels because they have the room foot print and height to take advantage of the added channels. Others which I believe are many do not. Hence all they require is 5.1 or 7.1//2 (if they so choose). It is this group I am discussing... they have no need for multi-zones (though it is a nice have) but would be very satisfied with greater sound and video processing, 6-8 HDMI inputs 2 outs with room correction... maybe Dirac LE or something along those lines. We want the dedicated rooms but few have or can afford them. Hence spending $2500 - 5000+ for pre/pros or avrs just to use only 40-60% of the features is a challenge for me. But if one could strip it down and provide analog outputs (2 and 7 channel) 2 subs would be great, xlr in and outs would be icing for those with existing gear, phono connectivity, fast video switch and room correction I believe many would jump to this - especially sub $1500 depending chip sets, room correction implementation.... As said before I am willing to forgo legacy video this can be had...
Oppo could do this without charging what Krell charges for the Foundation....
kofiv is offline  
post #464 of 1211 Old 06-16-2014, 12:24 PM
Senior Member
 
audio4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 450
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 147
I would love to see Oppo branch out into this market, they can't stay with blu ray only!
RogerSch likes this.
audio4life is online now  
post #465 of 1211 Old 06-16-2014, 12:45 PM
AVS Special Member
 
67jason's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,900
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 74 Post(s)
Liked: 793
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I would love to see Oppo branch out into this market, they can't stay with blu ray only!
oppo makes a headphone amp and has a strong cell phone business. they arent "blu-ray only".

I don't need snobs to tell me how to think, thank you!
67jason is offline  
post #466 of 1211 Old 06-16-2014, 05:34 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Bill Mac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 11,561
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by audio4life View Post
I would love to see Oppo branch out into this market, they can't stay with blu ray only!
I wouldn't be surprised to see Oppo come out with some form of processor whether it be an AVR, prepro or multi function unit with Bluray. I would be all over it. Then this thread would be nothing but echoes and tumbleweeds blowing by .


Bill
Djoel, kbarnes701 and Modicen like this.

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
Bill Mac is offline  
post #467 of 1211 Old 06-16-2014, 05:46 PM
AVS Special Member
 
bootman_head_fi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: The Nanny State
Posts: 1,186
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 226 Post(s)
Liked: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
I wouldn't be surprised to see Oppo come out with some form of processor whether it be an AVR, prepro or multi function unit with Bluray. I would be all over it. Then this thread would be nothing but echoes and tumbleweeds blowing by .


Bill
Just this one or all of the other AVP/AVR threads here?
bootman_head_fi is offline  
post #468 of 1211 Old 06-16-2014, 05:49 PM
Senior Member
 
Hoots's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: DFW
Posts: 406
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Are there pre/pros available today that would be a compelling upgrade over using an Oppo 105 w/Emotiva DMC-1 and in a price range comparable w/XMC-1 pricing? I use the DMC-1 as a multi-channel pre-amp with phono and the Oppo as a processor and USB DAC. I just bought a Panasonic 65" ZT plasma so 4K is a few years away for me.

Several years ago I was thinking of getting the replacement for the DMC-1 which I thought was going to be the XMC-1 but that hasn't ever been available so I just started using my Oppo when I needed HDMI.

I'm not sure how bad I want room correction which a new pre/pro would provide. Perhaps the switching would be easier. Ideally I would like better stereo sound quality.

DSD is a problem for the 105 (which is a benefit of the 105D) but I'm not sure if USB DACs in a pre/pro (like XMC-1 plans) can handle DSD files any better. I like tube stereo pre-amps have considered a pre/pro + tube pre-amp w/HT pass through setup.
Hoots is offline  
post #469 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 10:32 AM
cwt
AVS Special Member
 
cwt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: nsw australia
Posts: 1,229
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoots View Post
I'm not sure how bad I want room correction which a new pre/pro would provide. Perhaps the switching would be easier. Ideally I would like better stereo sound quality.

DSD is a problem for the 105 (which is a benefit of the 105D) but I'm not sure if USB DACs in a pre/pro (like XMC-1 plans) can handle DSD files any better. I like tube stereo pre-amps have considered a pre/pro + tube pre-amp w/HT pass through setup.
Depends on how good a room you have Hoots ; is it treated with diffusers / bass traps ? Many rooms are far from flat especially in the bass where it counts The xmc1 will have balanced and unbalanced stereo inputs so its flexible in picking the source you prefer including the balanced outs on you're 105 . The analog stages are supposedly better than the umc200 ; have to see though ..

Haven't been following the 105's usb input issues but the c media chip in the xmc1 is asynchronous for low jitter like the 105's ; I liked this post from Kal and asked if multichannel was being considered for the xmc1 awhile ago .
Marantz AV8801 Preamp/Processor Official Owner's thread
cwt is offline  
post #470 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 05:20 PM
Advanced Member
 
IgorZep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Regarding min phase, linear phase, and mixed phase...here is my understanding. If I have this wrong, please correct me.
General idea is right, but I'll correct some details...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
The crossovers, drivers, speaker cabinet, and the room itself act as filters - sometimes linear phase, sometimes min phase, sometimes in-between.
The crossovers (analog LPF/HPF filters as separate devices), drivers - are pretty much pure min-phase (this means when corrected by min-phase filter the 'time smearing' you are talking about is also corrected 'automagically', because the amplitude response and phase response are bound to each other by the nature. The room modes are also mostly min-phase, except in nulls, where anything including phase is uncorrectable. But when those min-phase pieces sum together they can create non min-phase product (the sum of min-phase LPF+HPF crossover filters is not min-phase anymore, the sum of two non-standing-wave reflections is also). The phase is not anymore bound to the amplitude and the difference is called the excess-phase. Is is NEWER linear phase! (except the digital linear phase crossovers of course, that is a separate animal). It is impossible to get linear phase with any analog filter (let's consider the room also to be the filter) except the case of 'unity' pass-everything as is filter with linear frequency response that is also min-phase in this particular case. So, the excess-phase is not something 'in between of min-phase and linear phase', it has nothing to do with linear phase at all, it is just everything that is outside of those two particular cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
When doing correction, it's best to match what the room and equipment are doing to cancel them out.
Sure, plus care for psycho-acoustic reasons not to over-correct some particular things.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
When doing equalization, usually min phase sounds best,
Sure, because it is how the nature 'equalizes' things, so we are used to this kind of distortion - it is everywhere around us, always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
but sometimes linear phase works better to avoid weird phase interactions.
Newer, as explained above. As it never happens in nature. Except the weird case when we try to correct for weird use of another digital linear-phase EQ. But this is really the sign someone used linear phase filters without understanding of their purpuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
Anyway, my understanding is that Dirac identifies what the equipment and room are doing, and use the appropriate type of filters to make the matching corrections.
It does and does it very well!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I have been using Dirac Live for about a month, and and love it. It's difficult to say how much of it is due to the mixed phase approach and how much is due to the really nice interface and iteration for tuning the target curves. I suspect it's both. I just know that I'm much happier with the results than what I was getting with XT32.
I am also... And thinking about building a HTPC for that instead of a receiver as it seems XMC-1 is not going to happen... And I learned the way how to do the necessary mixed-phase manually already while waiting for this endless Emo release, so it would be fun to do all the necessary coding, or just start with Audiolense or similar if I will be too lazy

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I just wish it had more channels, routing, and crossover capabilities, but I couldn't imagine dropping $25k on a Datasat.
All this leads to... HTPC. I see no other option with all the necessary flexibility in near future Unfortunately there is loss of usability, but about the sound - absolutely anything can be done.
rcohen likes this.
IgorZep is offline  
post #471 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 05:48 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 255 Post(s)
Liked: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
General idea is right, but I'll correct some details...
Thank you! It's always great to learn!

I saw an interesting YouTube video where a recording studio engineer was demonstrating the difference between linear and mixed phase EQ to get the sound he was looking for out of a recording.

In one extreme example, he showed how steep slopes with linear phase EQ could cause audible smearing and loss of impact, and how that problem went away using min phase EQ.

He also showed another example where min phase EQ introduced distracting phase interactions with a recording, changing the timbre in nasty and unexpected ways. In that case, the problem was solved by using linear phase EQ. He said that kind of situation is pretty rare, and min phase works best most of the time.

A question:
It's still possible to do frequency dependent phase shifts with digital min phase filters, right? My understanding is that a min (or other) phase filter must be used to select a range of frequencies, but once the frequency is selected, both the amplitude and phase can be modified. So, either min or linear phase can create any kind of phase shift. The filter type really means different locations for ringing?

I'm pretty curious about Audiolense XO vs Dirac. I've already bought Dirac, so the timing is bad, but Audiolense has a lot of cool flexibility for more channels and active crossovers. I've never seen anyone compare the results between Audiolense and Dirac, so I'm not sure what I'd be sacrificing, aside from $$$.
rcohen is offline  
post #472 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 05:53 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
I am also... And thinking about building a HTPC for that instead of a receiver as it seems XMC-1 is not going to happen... And I learned the way how to do the necessary mixed-phase manually already while waiting for this endless Emo release, so it would be fun to do all the necessary coding, or just start with Audiolense or similar if I will be too lazy

All this leads to... HTPC. I see no other option with all the necessary flexibility in near future Unfortunately there is loss of usability, but about the sound - absolutely anything can be done.
Or, other than the Datasat or a HTPC, you could buy an approximately $20K Trinnov Altitude, which is the new pre/pro they're rolling out in September. It's also got HDMI inputs and is expandable to up to 32 channels, but not VP capability AFAIK - although at that price point, you may well have a Lumagen or something like it .

Additionally, it's got the benefit of the Trinnov Optimizer (which may or may not meet Igor's standards for phase, group, and impulse response control for multi-position calibration), and has PC-core processing (also supposedly of 3D audio codecs) as well as software updatability of codecs are per the Trinnov USA rep's comments in the thread. Maybe that also falls into "HTPC", but a very dedicated and expensive one.

Of course, it's a 1%ers solution, and it's not specifically a Dirac solution. But both the Datasat and Trinnov pre/pros are more like a new car purchase - long term customer value as the proposition, although arguably less depreciation compared to an auto - than the conventional model for consumer A/V.

More info is here:
Trinnov Altitude

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/...


Last edited by sdrucker; 06-17-2014 at 05:58 PM.
sdrucker is online now  
post #473 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 05:55 PM
AVS Special Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 255 Post(s)
Liked: 86
Here is that min phase vs. linear phase video:
rcohen is offline  
post #474 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 06:44 PM
Advanced Member
 
Socketman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 21 Post(s)
Liked: 65
The emo birds are in a fluff over there. Someone noticed that the reserve button was gone and new speculation abounds. Seems they think that since you can't reserve it must mean that they are in stock ready to ship.
Socketman is offline  
post #475 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 07:05 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,684
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1274 Post(s)
Liked: 962
The pre-order button was gone when they re-vamped the site a week or two ago. Instead, it listed the product as out of stock.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #476 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 08:31 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
sdrucker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,219
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 148 Post(s)
Liked: 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurani View Post
The pre-order button was gone when they re-vamped the site a week or two ago. Instead, it listed the product as out of stock.

...which is literally true. Score one for truth in marketing .

Stuart

 

Denon 4311 with XT32 and Audyssey Pro

Oppo 93 and 103

Panasonic VT50

Sherwood R-972 with its version of the Trinnov Optimizer

MiniDSP 10x10 HD

PSB Imagine T2, Center, and Surrounds (as of 5/2014); HSU ULS-15 subs (2)

 

The Audyssey FAQ Guide can be found here:

http://www.avsforum.com/...

sdrucker is online now  
post #477 of 1211 Old 06-17-2014, 09:00 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
sdurani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Monterey Park, CA
Posts: 19,684
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1274 Post(s)
Liked: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post
...which is literally true.
Well, for me "out of stock" implies you had some in stock at one point. But hey, that's just me.
Bill Mac likes this.

Sanjay
sdurani is offline  
post #478 of 1211 Old 06-18-2014, 10:56 AM
Advanced Member
 
IgorZep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
A question:
It's still possible to do frequency dependent phase shifts with digital min phase filters, right?
Digital min-phase filters are no different to any other (analog) min-phase filters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
A question:
My understanding is that a min (or other) phase filter must be used to select a range of frequencies, but once the frequency is selected, both the amplitude and phase can be modified. So, either min or linear phase can create any kind of phase shift. The filter type really means different locations for ringing?
Not any kind. Linear phase filters cannot modify phase (except for doing it linearly, meaning they are adding constant delay to any signal independent of frequency, this is after all why they are called linear). They only modify magnitude, there is no shift in phase relative to other frequencies. But they start to sound 'before' the event has happened. Min-phase only sound after the event has happened. They change phase, but this is not any kind of phase shift. It is strictly dependent on the magnitude response. For one magnitude response there is exactly one possible phase response and vice versa. So, when you equalize min-phase distortion back to flat line with a min-phase filter, you will get back both flat frequency and flat phase response. They are not arbitrary, it is not only about ringing. If you do arbitrary magnitude and phase changes independent of each other this is mixed phase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
I'm pretty curious about Audiolense XO vs Dirac. I've already bought Dirac, so the timing is bad, but Audiolense has a lot of cool flexibility for more channels and active crossovers. I've never seen anyone compare the results between Audiolense and Dirac, so I'm not sure what I'd be sacrificing, aside from $$$.
Sure you can do better with Audiolense when you do active crossovers, spend a lot of time (per each speaker / band) and knowing very well in detail what are you doing. But Dirac will be pretty close already to what can be done by hand and can be calibrated in half an hour. You can still have active crossovers after Dirac. And Dirac will be able to 'fix' phase distortion due to those crossovers assuming they are well matched (LR4 acoustical slope is /one of the best, probably absolutely the best/ way to go). Dirac is correcting 10ms of mixed-phase. This is pretty much good enough for crossovers down to 80 Hz (normal subwoofer crossover frequency), assuming the crossovers/drivers are properly time-aligned outside of Dirac with acoustical slopes of up to 4-th order. And works close to absolute perfection for frequencies above 200Hz.
IgorZep is offline  
post #479 of 1211 Old 06-18-2014, 11:11 AM
AVS Special Member
 
rcohen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,196
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 255 Post(s)
Liked: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post
Digital min-phase filters...
Thanks again!


So, when Audyssey claims they correct phase and amplitude with XT32, does that mean that Audyssey does similar mixed phase detection and correction? Or maybe they're just referring to the full channel delays?
rcohen is offline  
post #480 of 1211 Old 06-18-2014, 01:00 PM
Advanced Member
 
IgorZep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 663
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 128 Post(s)
Liked: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcohen View Post
So, when Audyssey claims they correct phase and amplitude with XT32, does that mean that Audyssey does similar mixed phase detection and correction? Or maybe they're just referring to the full channel delays?
While they are using (purely) FIR filters for correction and this would be naturally expected with such technology to do mixed phase, according to measurements, they suddenly drop the phase somewhere in the analysis and do only a min-phase in the end. So, they a kind of "correct" phase as well as the amplitude, but only for min-phase problems, as any other PEQ/IIR based solution would do. So, I really don't know what they're pretending to refer to. Delays are delays... while they are related to phase it would be silly to refer to them as 'correction'. It is configuration, not correction...
IgorZep is offline  
Closed Thread Receivers, Amps, and Processors

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off