Emotiva XMC-1 coming soon (please limit posts to technical issues) - Page 17 - AVS Forum
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post #481 of 1211 Old 06-18-2014, 03:23 PM
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^
I think the problem isn't min phase vs. mixed phase. It's rather a problem of how to separate direct sound from reflected sound and how to apply correction that is psychoacoustically relevant.

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post #482 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 01:56 AM
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It is rather not a problem - just smooth the response and you have removed the psychoacoustically (more the acoustically than psycho) irrelevant overcorrection. But you definitely need to do this when constructing a high-resolution FIR filtering solution (as in XT vs XT32 case). More of a problem is spacial averaging to build a relevant room response out of multiple measurements when all/most of them contain good portion of irrelevant data.
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post #483 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 02:39 AM
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Why would smoothing the response be enough? Our hearing uses different processes to assess sound in terms of location, timbre and loudness. Timbre is not just based on steady state response. Furthermore localization might be negatively affected by a steady state-based correction.
Johansson highlights the problem in this paper: http://www.dirac.se/media/12044/on_room_correction.pdf (see FAITHFUL STEREO REPRODUCTION)

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post #484 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 05:07 AM
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Why would smoothing the response be enough? Our hearing uses different processes to assess sound in terms of location, timbre and loudness. Timbre is not just based on steady state response.
Because by smoothing the response you effectively remove (the correction of) late reflections that are later than some amount proportional to the length of the wave. It is the same thing mathematically, you just look at it from different perspective. There is no clean separation of direct wave vs reflection. It is again - from what perspective are you looking at it. Reflections that are short enough / shorter than the wavelength are stable and do not change significantly when you move over the space. You can correct them, you can look at them as part of the direct wave. You by no means, including hearing, will not be able to differentiate them from direct wave with a phase shift. Reflections that are too late / longer than the wavelength will show large variation in response over space as the relatively small time difference between the arrival of direct wave and the reflected wave will sum in one point and null in another. So, you should not correct those, and if you simply smooth the response in frequency domain you will do just that.

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Furthermore localization might be negatively affected by a steady state-based correction. Johansson highlights the problem in this paper: http://www.dirac.se/media/12044/on_room_correction.pdf (see FAITHFUL STEREO REPRODUCTION)
For the localization it is very important to have high consistency between channels. If you have exactly the same speakers and damped room... all is good. But if you have different crossover networks in center channel than in left and right... Well, there is a problem as over some region of frequencies speakers will play out of phase.. so - ruin localization. If you look at what Dirac is doing on practice (I am looking to my pre-out measurements of excess phase group delay)... higher than 150 Hz it just corrects the phase distortion created by crossovers in my speakers (detected just perfectly, in heavy reflective room, just terrible conditions! congrats to them they were able to extract it from all this room noise!), everything else is just smooth minimum phase curve on frequency response graph. Things gets different below that frequency.
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post #485 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 05:31 AM
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I've played extensively with smoothing as well as time dependent windowing but haven't made up my mind yet as to what is the "correct" approach.

Interesting observation that Dirac "switches" from room correction to speaker correction at around 150Hz.

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post #486 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 05:56 AM
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I've played extensively with smoothing as well as time dependent windowing but haven't made up my mind yet as to what is the "correct" approach.
It seems there is also quite a margin between Dirac and Audyssey in what they think is the right amount of smoothing/windowing.

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Interesting observation that Dirac "switches" from room correction to speaker correction at around 150Hz.
I am not sure it is correcting at all there, just the graph starts to behave randomly. Most probably this is not a correction but it just falls too much/often into the noise floor. As they claim the length of the time domain correction is 10ms they simply cannot create so much excess-phase disturbances at frequencies below 100 Hz... I haven't done deep investigation (trial has expired long ago), but tend to think it is just the measurement noise (unfortunately I had some problems with random noise appearing in my sound card when doing those Dirac experiments). So, in the end - practically all excess-phase correction is focused on the speaker, not the room. And this is why we see huge improvements in the impulse response, this is also why it doesn't vary across the room.
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post #487 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 10:07 AM
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Well, almost 2/3rd of the month is gone and no volume shipment.
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post #488 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 03:55 PM
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I just listened to their new podcast and there was really no new information about the XMC-1 other than it supposedly performs great. Dan said they were sitting on a lot of product right now, so I'm guessing they are ironing out firmware issues. He said it would be released "soon" but wouldn't mention a date.
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post #489 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 04:24 PM
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I just listened to their new podcast and there was really no new information about the XMC-1 other than it supposedly performs great. Dan said they were sitting on a lot of product right now, so I'm guessing they are ironing out firmware issues. He said it would be released "soon" but wouldn't mention a date.
So it looks like the "volume shipping in June" was a total pipe dream . What a total cluster you know what .

Bill
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For those interested in Dan's comments the podcast is here. The lack of information regarding the XMC-1 comes shortly after the 12 minute mark.
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post #491 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 04:38 PM
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For those interested in Dan's comments the podcast is here. The lack of information regarding the XMC-1 comes shortly after the 12 minute mark.
Thanks but I'll pass. The last podcast I listened to was more about the Emotiva crew joking around and patting each other on the back. There was no information of any value as far as I was concerned.

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post #492 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 04:49 PM
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This one was only notable for its lack of any real information. It was mostly about their road shows. One thing that irked me about this one and the last one, which are the only two I've listened to, is Dan's completely casual attitude about the XMC-1 release. He hasn't mentioned anything about delays, he's very unapologetic and vague, as if it's all on schedule.
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post #493 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 04:49 PM
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So it looks like the "volume shipping in June" was a total pipe dream . What a total cluster you know what .

Bill
Yes and what about the units they said they shipped in April and May....like most people suspected, they likely did not ship at all.

This is just more of the same misinformation that unfortunately has become the norm for this company.
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post #494 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 05:08 PM
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Dan mentioned that there were units out there in a pilot program. But details were not provided, and his comment about sitting on a fortune's worth of product and that release was imminent certainly make the claim that it shipped in April to be dubious. You'd have to listen to what he says for yourself, but I took it that those in the pilot program weren't supposed to talk about it, so clearly those aren't released products. So technically they may have shipped completed units with beta firmware to people in the pilot program starting in April, but as those are not release versions then to claim shipping is disingenuous in the least.
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post #495 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 05:20 PM
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Keith,

Both of your latest posts are spot on and I totally agree .

Bill

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post #496 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 05:50 PM
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Dan said they ordered a laser engraver. Can't they just put serial numbers on them with a Sharpie?

Reports from Atlanta should be interesting (and taken with a dump truck full of road salt)

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Oh this is just unbelievable, there is a thread over there where people are discussing the podcast and think it was informative and that the news that the XMC-1 is coming soon is something to be excited by.
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post #498 of 1211 Old 06-19-2014, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post
So it looks like the "volume shipping in June" was a total pipe dream . What a total cluster you know what .
In the last 90 seconds of the 14-minute podcast, Dan casually says:

"The XMC-1 is really exceeding expectations in terms of performance. It's settled down on the production side. We're very, very close to release on it. We've got pilot pieces out being tested and banged on and we'll be letting them out in the wild very, very shortly. We've got (laughs) how much money in product sitting here? A fortune. But we're very close to cutting it loose. And I think you guys are gonna be impressed when you see it here, at the show."

"Shipped in April" is Emo-speak for what every other company calls "beta testing".
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Originally Posted by Keith Mickunas View Post
I just listened to their new podcast and there was really no new information about the XMC-1 other than it supposedly performs great. Dan said they were sitting on a lot of product right now, so I'm guessing they are ironing out firmware issues. He said it would be released "soon" but wouldn't mention a date.
Yeah - it was a really useful update. Status of the XMC-1 has gone from "shipping soon" to "shipping soon"
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post #500 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 05:56 AM
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Yes and what about the units they said they shipped in April and May....like most people suspected, they likely did not ship at all.

This is just more of the same misinformation that unfortunately has become the norm for this company.
Yes - one has to learn to speak Emo. In Emospeak, "shipped in April" and "shipped in May" means "units out on beta test". Surely you didn’t make the basic mistake of thinking that "some units were shipped in April" meant that some units had been shipped, in April?

But it doesn't really matter. When the XMC-1 does arrive, it is an old-hat 7.1 processor based on designs two or three years behind the curve. It has no real technical merit other than Dirac LE, the benefits of which are currently unknown. The new Denon, Marantz and Onkyo units coming this September will totally blow it out of the water, with a raft of truly innovative and groundbreaking features.
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post #501 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 07:04 AM
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Yes - one has to learn to speak Emo. In Emospeak, "shipped in April" and "shipped in May" means "units out on beta test". Surely you didn’t make the basic mistake of thinking that "some units were shipped in April" meant that some units had been shipped, in April?

But it doesn't really matter. When the XMC-1 does arrive, it is an old-hat 7.1 processor based on designs two or three years behind the curve. It has no real technical merit other than Dirac LE, the benefits of which are currently unknown. The new Denon, Marantz and Onkyo units coming this September will totally blow it out of the water, with a raft of truly innovative and groundbreaking features.
Very informative as usual. Maybe you can repeat it another 100 times.

Your redundant news is about as useful as Big Dan's.
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post #502 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 07:15 AM
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Very informative as usual. Maybe you can repeat it another 100 times.

Your redundant news is about as useful as Big Dan's.
Have you considered the 'Ignore' control. It is very handy for blocking the posts of people who irritate you.
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post #503 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 07:17 AM
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But it doesn't really matter. When the XMC-1 does arrive, it is an old-hat 7.1 processor based on designs two or three years behind the curve. It has no real technical merit other than Dirac LE, the benefits of which are currently unknown. The new Denon, Marantz and Onkyo units coming this September will totally blow it out of the water, with a raft of truly innovative and groundbreaking features.
While I totally agree with you on the merits (or lack thereof) of the XMC-1, it's also important to point out that Onkyo has moved away from Audyssey as their REQ solution and adopted their own proprietary "AccuEq," the benefits of which are also currently unknown (although what I've read so far hasn't been kind).
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While I totally agree with you on the merits (or lack thereof) of the XMC-1, it's also important to point out that Onkyo has moved away from Audyssey as their REQ solution and adopted their own proprietary "AccuEq," the benefits of which are also currently unknown (although what I've read so far hasn't been kind).
Keith devotes his time to repeating himself on the woes of Emotiva while avoiding the issues that Onkyo has. Fanboys are like that.
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post #505 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 07:37 AM
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Keith devotes his time to repeating himself on the woes of Emotiva while avoiding the issues that Onkyo has. Fanboys are like that.
The pot calling the kettle black? All of you are making it hard for me to buy the Emotiva amp I have been considering for weeks. Keith is lucky that his Onkyo has served him well, I wasn't so fortunate, but I don't feel the need to use it as my safe word

We all await the release, I am in the market for a new pre or receiver this year. Here's hoping Dirac is the real deal and Big Dan walks the talk on this one.
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post #506 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 07:44 AM
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While I totally agree with you on the merits (or lack thereof) of the XMC-1, it's also important to point out that Onkyo has moved away from Audyssey as their REQ solution and adopted their own proprietary "AccuEq," the benefits of which are also currently unknown (although what I've read so far hasn't been kind).
I believe that is only the case on the lower-end models in their range. The better units still have XT32 (the only version of Audyssey I would consider).

If Onkyo do eventually drop XT32 across the board, well there is always Denon. My next unit may well be a Denon anyway, for various reasons (none of which is connected with any problems with Onkyo that I have experienced. All three of my Onkyo units have performed flawlessly).

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post #507 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 07:44 AM
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keith devotes his time to repeating himself on the woes of emotiva while avoiding the issues that onkyo has. Fanboys are like that.
Pavlov alert!!!!
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post #508 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 07:46 AM
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The pot calling the kettle black? All of you are making it hard for me to buy the Emotiva amp I have been considering for weeks. Keith is lucky that his Onkyo has served him well, I wasn't so fortunate, but I don't feel the need to use it as my safe word

We all await the release, I am in the market for a new pre or receiver this year. Here's hoping Dirac is the real deal and Big Dan walks the talk on this one.
Emotiva amps are terrific. I have four and have been delighted with all of them. Don't let the desperately poor launch of the XMC-1 put you off Emotiva amps.
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post #509 of 1211 Old 06-20-2014, 07:53 AM
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Onkyo

Markus

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Yes - one has to learn to speak Emo. In Emospeak, "shipped in April" and "shipped in May" means "units out on beta test". Surely you didn’t make the basic mistake of thinking that "some units were shipped in April" meant that some units had been shipped, in April?

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