Emotiva XMC-1 coming soon (please limit posts to technical issues) - Page 20 - AVS Forum
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post #571 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 04:11 PM
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Thanks, carfanm.

"pretty much the full version" needs to be clarified, as well as the # of target curves and filter sets which can be stored in the $99 option.

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post #572 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 04:11 PM
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Looks nice. Sounds like it will be towards the end of the year before it will be released though. If that is accurate, I think they should reconsider not going full HDMI 2.0. Pretty much all the receivers selling then will have 2.0 capability and the new 4k Vizio's with 2.0 should be out then as well.

I don't really doubt the $100 extra for full Dirac. Emotiva will be paying Dirac a licensing fee for each XMC-1 and probably an additional fixed amount. Giving users the option of an upgrade keeps Emotiva from having to add an additional $100 to the price of the XMC-1, and gives Dirac an additional revenue stream. If, for instance, Emotiva is paying Dirac $100 per XMC-1 sold and 85% of users upgrade for an additional $100, then Dirac is making $185 per XMC-1 sold plus a likely flat fee ... not bad.

Sure the other processors are a lot more money, but we don't know how much of that $20k goes to Dirac. Probably a small fraction. We also don't know the volume of sales those processors generate. If the XMC-1 generates high sales volume, then Dirac could stand to make more money on it than they do the much higher priced processors even if the licensing fees are significantly less.
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post #573 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
"pretty much the full version" needs to be clarified, as well as the # of target curves and filter sets which can be stored in the $99 option.

Agree. As long as there are at least 1 target curve that's adjustable and at least 2 filter sets, that would meet my needs (if I were thinking of this unit). More is always better, but I doubt I would use more.
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post #574 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 05:15 PM
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Agree. As long as there are at least 1 target curve that's adjustable and at least 2 filter sets, that would meet my needs (if I were thinking of this unit). More is always better, but I doubt I would use more.
LOL....I've heard the results from tweaking a pro Trinnov unit's target curves in almost real time. If the Emotiva's "full" version supports multiple target curves, and you tweak music (with far less mixing standards than movies) to taste, those filter sets will multiply soon enough...
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post #575 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 05:29 PM
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Agree. As long as there are at least 1 target curve that's adjustable and at least 2 filter sets, that would meet my needs (if I were thinking of this unit). More is always better, but I doubt I would use more.
Take it from a guy who's been dinking with definable target curves for five years, now - you don't need many, but 3 or 4 would sure be nice.
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post #576 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 06:04 PM
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LOL....I've heard the results from tweaking a pro Trinnov unit's target curves in almost real time. If the Emotiva's "full" version supports multiple target curves, and you tweak music (with far less mixing standards than movies) to taste, those filter sets will multiply soon enough...

Based on my experience with room correction systems, I don't think I need many target curves to know what I like and don't like. I do need the target curve adjustable as I often don't like the results of the typical built-in target curve. As for tweaking with DIRAC, it is my understanding that the tweaking is in the target curve. There's not really any tweaking of the filters (even in full DIRAC Live). So...find a target curve one likes, run it, and done. Don't like the result? Change the target curve and re-run it.


Correct me if I am wrong.
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post #577 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 06:13 PM
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Thanks ambesolman! The photos of the XMC-1 look great. Is there a way to turn the lights down or off on the front display? I would find them a bit bright in a dark room while watching...
I believe they stated on the forum you can shut the front completely off. I hope that includes the power button unlike their amps. Those blue LEDs are way too bright in a dark room. I've criticized them a couple times on the forum, it's unnecessary and just damn annoying for a piece of equipment targeted for a home theater to have a bright blue night light on it that lights up the room.

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Looks nice. Sounds like it will be towards the end of the year before it will be released though. If that is accurate, I think they should reconsider not going full HDMI 2.0. Pretty much all the receivers selling then will have 2.0 capability and the new 4k Vizio's with 2.0 should be out then as well.
Well what in HDMI 2.0 do you need that the XMC-1 doesn't support? I believe they'll have the bandwidth to support 4k@60p. Obviously they can't support all 32 channels or whatever HDMI 2.0 supports, because it's only a 7.2 receiver so it doesn't need that. What caught them out with their 2.0 announcement was getting a handle on what all features you have to support in HDMI to claim 2.0 compatibility. Furthermore the folks behind the HDMI standard don't even want people using version numbers because they think that gets confusing. They say manufacturers should just state what they support, i.e. HDMI with 4K@60p with 3D, ARC, ethernet, etc. I'm pretty sure the XMC-1 supports pretty much everything that's out there in the consumer market today. And to verify full 2.0 compatibility would be quite difficult. The bigger companies can dance around this with marketing speak and won't get in trouble for it with the HDMI group, so they can claim 2.0, for whatever that's worth, whereas a little company like Emotiva has to be a bit more cautious.

As for Dirac, isn't Dirac Live a gimped version of the full Dirac software? Which means the version that comes with the XMC-1 is a limited version of a limited version of Dirac. The 8 channel version of Dirac Live is 650 euro (I didn't find an American link right off but that's about $900). Does the Datasat run Dirac Live or something else?
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post #578 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
Based on my experience with room correction systems, I don't think I need many target curves to know what I like and don't like. I do need the target curve adjustable as I often don't like the results of the typical built-in target curve. As for tweaking with DIRAC, it is my understanding that the tweaking is in the target curve. There's not really any tweaking of the filters (even in full DIRAC Live). So...find a target curve one likes, run it, and done. Don't like the result? Change the target curve and re-run it.


Correct me if I am wrong.
Nope, you're not wrong. The difficulty lies in the fact that there are no standards for music mix/mastering so the spectral balance the engineer hears and corrects for varies considerably, thus so will the spectral balance of different recordings in your room - See Toole's Circle of Confusion. In practice, the vast majority of recordings will sound fine with a single target curve. It's the outliers that can be problematic.

AFAICT, film mixing is better standardized and less problematic for reproduction.
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post #579 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 06:36 PM
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Absolutely. I just don't quite understand Dirac's thinking on it. If they can sell to the 20k market successfully, why on earth devalue their currency by offering their product in something like the XMC-1, and for $800? Datasat must be cockahoop. Not.
Because the $2k (or $1k or $500) market is so much bigger than the $20k market. If Dirac's plan is to swoop in and replace Audyssey as the de facto room correction software on the market, they can't just cater to the ultra high end market. You've said yourself that you'd love to see Dirac successfully implemented in the XMC-1 because you hope to see it gain wider adoption. This looks like step #1 to me.
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post #580 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 08:46 PM
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I believe they stated on the forum you can shut the front completely off. I hope that includes the power button unlike their amps. Those blue LEDs are way too bright in a dark room. I've criticized them a couple times on the forum, it's unnecessary and just damn annoying for a piece of equipment targeted for a home theater to have a bright blue night light on it that lights up the room.
Thanks Keith! I have this same problem with my current Pioneer AVR and have to end up covering up the power button LED. I would think that the display dimming would be minimal, at least.

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post #581 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 08:49 PM
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Because the $2k (or $1k or $500) market is so much bigger than the $20k market. If Dirac's plan is to swoop in and replace Audyssey as the de facto room correction software on the market, they can't just cater to the ultra high end market. You've said yourself that you'd love to see Dirac successfully implemented in the XMC-1 because you hope to see it gain wider adoption. This looks like step #1 to me.
/Quote

Not so sure on that one. Emotiva, an upstart company with a dreadful record in the processor market, and Dirac sought them out as a "step #1"? After TacT had tried and failed? Let's face it, after TacT was found to have failed, Dirac was hardly pounding on Emotiva's door. I'd be tempted to think that Dirac must have fallen on hard times to agree to such a marriage of convenience.

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post #582 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 09:42 PM
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Not so sure on that one. Emotiva, an upstart company with a dreadful record in the processor market, and Dirac sought them out as a "step #1"? After TacT had tried and failed? Let's face it, after TacT was found to have failed, Dirac was hardly pounding on Emotiva's door. I'd be tempted to think that Dirac must have fallen on hard times to agree to such a marriage of convenience.
TacT was never going to work out. The company was moribund well before the planned TacT/Emo latchup, and Boz was already moving on to a lighting company startup. I suspect it didn't really fail so much as it never got off the ground.

Dirac was and is a much more suitable partner.
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post #583 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 10:20 PM
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Not so sure on that one. Emotiva, an upstart company with a dreadful record in the processor market, and Dirac sought them out as a "step #1"? After TacT had tried and failed? Let's face it, after TacT was found to have failed, Dirac was hardly pounding on Emotiva's door. I'd be tempted to think that Dirac must have fallen on hard times to agree to such a marriage of convenience.
That's completely unfounded. There's no evidence that Dirac is a floundering company. I think a lot of people in this thread are letting their personal dislike for Emotiva get in the way of seeing that Emotiva is a successful small company (much like Dirac). It's a great place for a company like Dirac to try to get a foothold in the lower end market. Dirac is going to have a hard time convincing a company like Denon to drop Audyssey, or a company like Yamaha to scrap their home grown solution and go with Dirac.
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post #584 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 10:22 PM
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TacT was never going to work out. The company was moribund well before the planned TacT/Emo latchup, and Boz was already moving on to a lighting company startup. I suspect it didn't really fail so much as it never got off the ground.

Dirac was and is a much more suitable partner.
Well hindsight is always 20/20, isn't it? Failure, never getting off the ground, what's the difference?

I well remember when the "TacT is coming" announcement was made in Emoland. Big Dan was pretty giddy like he'd made a major coup. Updates were forthcoming, expectations on a release date, etc., and heavy hitters joined the Emo forum to spread the good word. They claimed to own multiple thousands of dollars in TacT gear and praised its performance. I remember challenging one such poster, and got reprimanded by a mod.

Whatever, it's just another Emotiva failure among many like Sherbourn and the Bob Carver thing. Dirac's interest in a company like Emotiva does indeed reveal something about them. Maybe it'll all work out, but Dan's silence on the matter is quite telling, as is the continued delay of release.
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post #585 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 10:36 PM
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Dirac's interest in a company like Emotiva does indeed reveal something about them.
Like their partnerships with Theta and miniDSP, not to mention various luxury auto manufacturers, I view it as a healthy effort to license their product. YMMV.
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post #586 of 1211 Old 06-21-2014, 11:22 PM
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And what's the difference for you between failure and "never getting off the ground"? Maybe you weren't following Emotiva when they announced with great fanfare that TacT was going to transform the XMC, but I was. YMMV indeed.
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post #587 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 02:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Bluescale View Post
Because the $2k (or $1k or $500) market is so much bigger than the $20k market. If Dirac's plan is to swoop in and replace Audyssey as the de facto room correction software on the market, they can't just cater to the ultra high end market. You've said yourself that you'd love to see Dirac successfully implemented in the XMC-1 because you hope to see it gain wider adoption. This looks like step #1 to me.
Good points. But Datasat must be furious at the idea I’d like to see Dirac get into the larger market - Audyssey have ceased development of XT32 it seems and Onkyo have dropped Audyssey altogether we now discover. Time for new blood in the affordable, automated REQ market.
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post #588 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 02:27 AM
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Not so sure on that one. Emotiva, an upstart company with a dreadful record in the processor market, and Dirac sought them out as a "step #1"? After TacT had tried and failed? Let's face it, after TacT was found to have failed, Dirac was hardly pounding on Emotiva's door. I'd be tempted to think that Dirac must have fallen on hard times to agree to such a marriage of convenience.
Also good points, from an alternative perspective. If I made an innovative REQ solution I doubt if Emotiva would be my first choice of partner to trial it. Given their history with processors there'd be too much risk for me that numerous (potential) problems in the processor itself (aside from REQ) would contaminate my own product.
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post #589 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 02:29 AM
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That's completely unfounded. There's no evidence that Dirac is a floundering company. I think a lot of people in this thread are letting their personal dislike for Emotiva get in the way of seeing that Emotiva is a successful small company (much like Dirac). It's a great place for a company like Dirac to try to get a foothold in the lower end market. Dirac is going to have a hard time convincing a company like Denon to drop Audyssey, or a company like Yamaha to scrap their home grown solution and go with Dirac.
I agree there is no evidence that Dirac is floundering - far from it it seems. But Onkyo didn't need much convincing to drop Audyssey this year.
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post #590 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 02:33 AM
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I agree there is no evidence that Dirac is floundering - far from it it seems. But Onkyo didn't need much convincing to drop Audyssey this year.
The point is, with a larger company like, Dirac would have had much less control/influence in the partnership. With Emotiva, things are on more even footing.
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The point is, with a larger company like, Dirac would have had much less control/influence in the partnership. With Emotiva, things are on more even footing.
You see Emotiva's influence wrt to processors as a good thing?
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post #592 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 04:43 AM
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Well what in HDMI 2.0 do you need that the XMC-1 doesn't support? I believe they'll have the bandwidth to support 4k@60p. Obviously they can't support all 32 channels or whatever HDMI 2.0 supports, because it's only a 7.2 receiver so it doesn't need that. What caught them out with their 2.0 announcement was getting a handle on what all features you have to support in HDMI to claim 2.0 compatibility. Furthermore the folks behind the HDMI standard don't even want people using version numbers because they think that gets confusing. They say manufacturers should just state what they support, i.e. HDMI with 4K@60p with 3D, ARC, ethernet, etc. I'm pretty sure the XMC-1 supports pretty much everything that's out there in the consumer market today. And to verify full 2.0 compatibility would be quite difficult. The bigger companies can dance around this with marketing speak and won't get in trouble for it with the HDMI group, so they can claim 2.0, for whatever that's worth, whereas a little company like Emotiva has to be a bit more cautious.

As for Dirac, isn't Dirac Live a gimped version of the full Dirac software?
My thoughts on hdmi2.0 as well Keith ; I can't even envisage 4k60p downloads or however it arrives with Aus crap download speeds

Dirac on the xmc1 looks like it won't skimp on filters which is a relief and its pc full nomenclature is dirac live - hopefully the reported substantial manual will fill in the finer points .

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1) On the XMC-1's version of DIRAC, in what ways is DIRAC LE different the full DIRAC Live?
Custom version for Emotiva. All the same time and freq an filters but it allows for a preset curve
.

This is 3rd party annotated so feel free to substitute 'customized response curve ' for 'preset curve '
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You see Emotiva's influence wrt to processors as a good thing?
I think its a question of leverage Keith that bluescale is saying ; dirac wouldn't have as much with a big ce which could dictate terms or be shut out of a big wodge of the licensing market

Obviously audyssey licensing charges [ being a bit de rigeur these days ] has overstepped the fees that onkyo want /will sustain so its dropped
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post #594 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 05:09 AM
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I think its a question of leverage Keith that bluescale is saying ; dirac wouldn't have as much with a big ce which could dictate terms or be shut out of a big wodge of the licensing market

Obviously audyssey licensing charges [ being a bit de rigeur these days ] has overstepped the fees that onkyo want /will sustain so its dropped
Onkyo dropped Audyssey calibration as they did not want to include 4 processors in the new up coming models for XT32 to handle Dobly Atmos and other new formats. This also allows them to maybe shoe horn Dobly Atmos and other formats into lower tierd AVR's as Onkoy's RC skips calibrating the FL & FR speakers.

This is proven by Denon's new releases coming soon (X4200, X5200, X7200) with Dolby Atmos as they all have 4 processors now for audio processing for Audyssey XT32
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post #595 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 05:16 AM
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I think its a question of leverage Keith that bluescale is saying ; dirac wouldn't have as much with a big ce which could dictate terms or be shut out of a big wodge of the licensing market

Obviously audyssey licensing charges [ being a bit de rigeur these days ] has overstepped the fees that onkyo want /will sustain so its dropped
The talk is that Atmos requires quite a lot of processing power, and so does Audyssey, so having both in one unit makes exceptional demands. Denon have overcome this by using quad processors in their Atmos units, but Onkyo decided to develop their own REQ (AccuEQ) as an alternative. Seems like a bad mistake to me. REQ is an established concept which customers see as beneficial, so to dump the market leader in favour of their own, unknown REQ seems retrograde to me. Especially if the reason for dumping it is Atmos. While I am a massive advocate of Atmos personally, it has yet to be proven in the market and demand for it is, at this time, unknown.

EDIT: I only just saw dalumberjack's post, which amplifies on what I said above. What I didn’t know was that AccuEQ doesn't calibrate the FR and FL speakers! Onkyo lost me as a long time customer (3 units, culminating in their flagship product: the 5509 processor) when they took the decision to drop Audyssey (well, XT32 which is the only flavour of Audyssey I'd be interested in) and my next unit looks set to be one of the higher-end Denon units with Atmos.

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post #596 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 05:34 AM
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Also good points, from an alternative perspective. If I made an innovative REQ solution I doubt if Emotiva would be my first choice of partner to trial it. Given their history with processors there'd be too much risk for me that numerous (potential) problems in the processor itself (aside from REQ) would contaminate my own product.
And for Dirac Emotiva is far from the first choice. It is on Datasat, Naim, it is on Bentleys, BMWs, Rolls Royces, Volvos, now they are partnering with Pioneer, they are already successful with MiniDSP (with very short time from the idea to market) - this a lot of different niches. They fail with Emo - so what... they are still in business! And anyone can have it at their home right now, all you need is a computer, DAC, power amps and a Dirac license! And it is easy to try it. For free (sure you have everything that is needed for that)!
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post #597 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 06:08 AM
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Nope, you're not wrong. The difficulty lies in the fact that there are no standards for music mix/mastering so the spectral balance the engineer hears and corrects for varies considerably, thus so will the spectral balance of different recordings in your room.

I see your point, but I look at it like I am using a tool like DIRAC to correct for room issues, not recording/mastering issues. For me, recordings are what they are, so I don't try to adjust for their outages. But, that's just me. I understand others may prefer to try to compensate for recording outages.
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post #598 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by RUR View Post
TacT was never going to work out. The company was moribund well before the planned TacT/Emo latchup, and Boz was already moving on to a lighting company startup. I suspect it didn't really fail so much as it never got off the ground.

Dirac was and is a much more suitable partner.

I fully agree. When I met Boz at the Emofest he came to, it was clear to me that he wasn't really interesting in helping Emotiva at all. I took it as though he wanted $ and out. I seriously doubted we'd ever see TacT in the XMC after that. To the contrary, the partnership between Emotiva, MDS, and DIRAC seems quite collaborative based on seeing them interact at Emofest last year. Hopefully, it will be effective. Someone on the Lounge just reported that Lonnie is saying he fully expects DIRAC to be ready for demo at the Chicago road show (which is 7/26). We'll see. I really liked what I heard in the DIRAC 2 channel demo, and I often have not liked the results of other room correction systems.
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post #599 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by carfanm View Post
Someone on the Lounge just reported that Lonnie is saying he fully expects DIRAC to be ready for demo at the Chicago road show (which is 7/26). We'll see. I really liked what I heard in the DIRAC 2 channel demo, and I often have not liked the results of other room correction systems.
I would hope so. Perhaps a partnership with mini-DSP would have been a good idea.

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post #600 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Dalumberjack View Post
Onkyo dropped Audyssey calibration as they did not want to include 4 processors in the new up coming models for XT32 to handle Dobly Atmos and other new formats. This also allows them to maybe shoe horn Dobly Atmos and other formats into lower tierd AVR's as Onkoy's RC skips calibrating the FL & FR speakers.

This is proven by Denon's new releases coming soon (X4200, X5200, X7200) with Dolby Atmos as they all have 4 processors now for audio processing for Audyssey XT32
Interestingly, the XMC-1 also has 4 processors, I believe. I'm not sure why they need so much horsepower, unless Dirac is real beast.
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