Emotiva XMC-1 coming soon (please limit posts to technical issues) - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 04:25 PM
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I guess there are "Lies, Damn Lies, and" Emotiva Promises.

One can understand technical difficulties, but when there are continued false promises and then coverup about product development, it becomes ridiculous to the serious consumer putting aside the lapdog brotherhood.

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It's called volume, and I'm sure Dirac wants as much of it as they can.
Who in their right mind would want to buy this comedy of errors that is the XMC-1? Seriously, I'm sure Dirac must be thinking of getting off this sinking ship.

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post #632 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 04:41 PM
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Someone put a poll on their forum a while back for guessing the release date. I chose by Dec. 2014, and I was being sarcastic at the time. Now I'm wondering if I was overly optimistic, and I say that with no sarcasm whatsoever.

If they fail with Dirac it will be pretty sad and I wonder where they will go from there. It's funny though, over there everyone was all excited about TacT, but as soon as that fell through and Dirac was announced it was quickly determined that was by the far best option ever, and people look down on Audyssey. If their Dirac plans fall through will they switch to Audyssey? And if so will the forum agree that Audyssey is by far the best and that Dirac is over the top and totally unnecessary?

When they fail to come through with their release dates in this manner I do believe they owe their fans an honest update. They had to have known as far back as a month ago they would not reach general release in June, and should have said "Development is ongoing, unfortunately some issues in testing have arose and release is TBD." That would have saved them a lot of ill will.

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post #633 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 04:51 PM
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At Emofest 2012, Emotiva demonstrated TacT operated on a computer with the XMC-1.

Ignoring all the carnival barking by Big Dan and his lapdogs including the false information posted on their website concerning the XMC-1, it is "beyond expectations" that they appear to be no further ahead with Dirac twenty-one months later.
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post #634 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 05:59 PM
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They haven't been working with Dirac that long, probably about a year total now. I am surprised there are still issues, but that could be just as much of an issue with Dirac as it is Emotiva. Without knowing all the circumstances I wouldn't feel comfortable pointing the finger singularly at Emotiva.

As far as the comment as to who would want to buy this, who knows? The only people that the delays "bother" are the ones waiting for it. But there are consumers that aren't waiting for anything that may or may not be future customers. The problem I see with most forums is the utter doom and gloom that surrounds EVERYTHING. I see the same things in other forums for other products and the venomous posts about how product x is going to be the downfall of company x and it ends up being a blip at best. I'm sure there are very good reasons that Dirac chose to work with Emotiva. They are a very popular brand for other products and there are quite a few products they make that integration with Dirac would be interesting with (DACs, Preamps, Processors, Receivers). Not a lot of other options out there that have the breadth of product that Emotiva is attempting.

The XMC will either be a product people want or it won't be. Emotiva haven't helped themselves a lot with the timeline issues and it remains to be seen if the performance of the processor will help mend that wound or not. I don't find the lack of Atmos to be a real deal breaker any more than I don't see the lack of a multitude of enhanced surround modes an issue with a multitude of other surround processors on the market today. Height and width channels have been around forever and how much Atmos will or will not enhance the home surround system remains to be seen. I'm sure if Atmos eventually becomes the must have feature some make it out to be, it will eventually find its way to one of their future products, just like other companies will eventually adopt as well.
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post #635 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
I'm sure if Atmos eventually becomes the must have feature some make it out to be, it will eventually find its way to one of their future products, just like other companies will eventually adopt as well.
From what I gather over at the Lounge, Lonnie hinted to one of the people who attended the road show that they already have something in the works, but are bound by gag order from Dolby not to discuss it. He said that at the same time he said that the RMC-1 was being developed alongside the XMC-1. Now, anyone who has followed Emotiva's history with processors knows to take any such hints with a few buckets full of salt. I think it's fair to say they're keeping an eye on the market to see if it's worth going down that path in the future.
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post #636 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 06:52 PM
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I think Dolby has a gag on everyone until cedia.
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post #637 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 07:19 PM
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Any hints dropped by Emotiva are pretty much vaporware. They're quite late on another promised release, tube amps and preamps, so I'd take a page out some past president when he said, "trust but verify". When the units are shipping and customers report no issues, then you've got something.
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post #638 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
<snip>I'm sure there are very good reasons that Dirac chose to work with Emotiva. They are a very popular brand for other products and there are quite a few products they make that integration with Dirac would be interesting with (DACs, Preamps, Processors, Receivers). Not a lot of other options out there that have the breadth of product that Emotiva is attempting. <snip>

Quite a few Emotiva, "DACs, Preamps, Processors, Receivers"? Last I recall, you could count on one hand with even a finger or two left to spare the number of such devices currently being offered by Emotiva.
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post #639 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
They haven't been working with Dirac that long, probably about a year total now. I am surprised there are still issues, but that could be just as much of an issue with Dirac as it is Emotiva. Without knowing all the circumstances I wouldn't feel comfortable pointing the finger singularly at Emotiva.
It has been approx. 21 months since the highly promoted TacT demonstration at Emofest 2012.

From reports, Emotiva demonstrated Dirac in a similar manner at the recent Atlanta show. Dirac wasn't actually installed on the XMC-1. From this it appears that Emotiva isn't so much further ahead with Dirac as it was with TacT at Emofest 2012 and we all know what happened there.

Yeah, I guess we can't point the finger singularly at Emotiva. Ignore their boasting from June 2013.

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You can bet you'll get an e-mail notification when the XMC-1 is ready to ship.
There'll also be headlines all over the website.
And perhaps even a few skyrockets.
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...Besides, if everyone's questions were to be answered in a (very long) podcast, what will the naysayers do?
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EXACTLY the point! Time spent answering the key, not ALL questions from folks here will make it difficult for the naysayers to, well, say "nay". Wouldn't that be refreshing?

The buck stops nowhere nowadays.

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The problem I see with most forums is the utter doom and gloom that surrounds EVERYTHING. I see the same things in other forums for other products and the venomous posts about how product x is going to be the downfall of company x and it ends up being a blip at best. I'm sure there are very good reasons that Dirac chose to work with Emotiva. They are a very popular brand for other products and there are quite a few products they make that integration with Dirac would be interesting with (DACs, Preamps, Processors, Receivers). Not a lot of other options out there that have the breadth of product that Emotiva is attempting.
If it were only product x with Emotiva, that would be one thing, but you seem to forget the number of processors (LMC, UMC, XMC) that Emotiva have failed on or barely passed with over a long number of years.

There is a distinctive pattern of processor design/implementation failures over a long number of years that shouldn't be ignored.

There are many other options other than Emotiva that Dirac might consider, I'm not sure how you came up with that one? In fact, Emotiva is probably one of the most limited options. Dirac getting into bed with Emotiva is probably due to Big Dan's "gift of the gab". But what looked like a coup is now looking more like a crap.

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post #640 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 07:36 PM
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Any hints dropped by Emotiva are pretty much vaporware. They're quite late on another promised release, tube amps and preamps, so I'd take a page out some past president when he said, "trust but verify". When the units are shipping and customers report no issues, then you've got something.
Well so much for the XMC-1. looks like I am moving on to the 8801.
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post #641 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 07:42 PM
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Well so much for the XMC-1. looks like I am moving on to the 8801.
I may end up doing the same thing. I was really looking forward to Dirac but I can't wait forever for this thing. I've got an LG just waiting to be fired up and I need balanced outs!
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post #642 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 08:00 PM
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From what I gather over at the Lounge, Lonnie hinted to one of the people who attended the road show that they already have something in the works, but are bound by gag order from Dolby not to discuss it. He said that at the same time he said that the RMC-1 was being developed alongside the XMC-1. Now, anyone who has followed Emotiva's history with processors knows to take any such hints with a few buckets full of salt. I think it's fair to say they're keeping an eye on the market to see if it's worth going down that path in the future.

This is rather amusing. the path Emotiva tends to take is long and winding, and most likely ends up in the ditch.
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post #643 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 08:59 PM
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So who is going to start the class action lawsuit for all of the damages caused by these delays?
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post #644 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 09:12 PM
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So who is going to start the class action lawsuit for all of the damages caused by these delays?
All the folks who've lost money on this so far, of course!

Oh wait...
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post #645 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 09:19 PM
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But to date Emo has not taken any money.... so how can a suite take place.?
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post #646 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 10:34 PM
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I'd like to know how one uses a tone to set up an equalizer.
Leaving aside the merits of the approach, it's more a "sweep" than a "tone." The tone generator can be used to make sweeps.

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There are many other options other than Emotiva that Dirac might consider.
Honest question: who?

Denon's with Audyssey, and Marantz is just dressed up and marked up Denon.

Anthem spent a lot of time and money developing their excellent ARC package, so why would they abandon it when it works so well?

Pioneer, it seems, is getting out of the business.

Onyko's busy cutting costs, not adding them.

Sony, do they ever use third party anything when they don't absolutely have to?

Yamaha...see Sony.

Arcam, based on their public comments, seems uninterested in developing the intellectual or operational horsepower to handle anything that's a real advance.

Cambridge Audio...see Arcam.

Parasound isn't in the reasonably-priced pre-pro or high-end AVR market.

Rotel...are they even still around at all?

NAD? OK, there's a legitimate contender that makes modern products and buys sophisticated IP (Hypex amps, etc).

So, basically if Dirac wanted to be in this market they had two options, and for whatever reason either NAD wasn't interested or Dirac picked Emotiva over NAD.
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post #647 of 1211 Old 06-22-2014, 11:24 PM
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Leaving aside the merits of the approach, it's more a "sweep" than a "tone." The tone generator can be used to make sweeps.
The original quote said: "There is a tone generator built into the XMC-1 for just about the whole range of frequencies. Lonnie and Damon use them along with a SPL to set the theater up."

That gives the impression that there are tones at certain frequencies (not a sweep). Measure each frequency with a SPL meter and graph the level to get a frequency response chart. That's how room correction was initiated on the old Tag McLaren pre-pro.

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post #648 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 12:42 AM
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The original quote said: "There is a tone generator built into the XMC-1 for just about the whole range of frequencies. Lonnie and Damon use them along with a SPL to set the theater up."

That gives the impression that there are tones at certain frequencies (not a sweep). Measure each frequency with a SPL meter and graph the level to get a frequency response chart. That's how room correction was initiated on the old Tag McLaren pre-pro.

That's what it looked like to me as well at emofest yesterday. You can even set the dB level the tone is played at so the main vol doesn't need to be at 0.


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post #649 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 01:07 AM
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That's what it looked like to me as well at emofest yesterday. You can even set the dB level the tone is played at so the main vol doesn't need to be at 0.
It's still utter nonsense to do it that way.

First you need to measure a large amount of frequencies and write the result down for each one. This will take you a very long time.
Then you need to know the response curve of your SPL meter (which you probably don't know) and adjust your measured data accordingly.
You end up with the steady-state response of a single point in space. Additionally all phase information is lost. This is not enough information to do proper room correction.
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post #650 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 02:59 AM
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That gives the impression that there are tones at certain frequencies (not a sweep). Measure each frequency with a SPL meter and graph the level to get a frequency response chart. That's how room correction was initiated on the old Tag McLaren pre-pro.
RABOS, yes. TMREQ used sweeps just like REW, which is where REW came from.
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post #651 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 03:24 AM
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It's called volume, and I'm sure Dirac wants as much of it as they can.
Good point Kris, in general. But volume from the XMC-1? How many XMC-1s do you think Emotiva will sell, assuming even that it works properly when eventually released, and given that it has a spec about 3 years behind the curve? 500? 1000? 2000?

Of course they might see this as a stepping stone to a deal with a mainstream manufacturer...
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post #652 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 04:45 AM
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So who is going to start the class action lawsuit for all of the damages caused by these delays?
This is all self-inflicted damage by Emotiva. It is their own reputation that is damaged which results in customer non-confidence for their product. This ultimately results in a loss of sales that is not recoverable. The fact is the delays have rendered the XMC-1 pretty much obsolete by the time it comes to market, a couple of years too late. Can the fanboys even see that?
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post #653 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:14 AM
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I may end up doing the same thing. I was really looking forward to Dirac but I can't wait forever for this thing. I've got an LG just waiting to be fired up and I need balanced outs!
Yeah LB, I need an amp by the end of July. I truly hate to buy anything now as the prices are going to tumble and not to mention anything new coming out, but I need an amp now. I was hoping to at least have an official order in by now.

I to was intersted in Dirac, but it is probably going to be no better than Audyssey. Sounds like that is where are the problems are anyway with this thing.

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post #654 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:15 AM
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This is all self-inflicted damage by Emotiva. It is their own reputation that is damaged which results in customer non-confidence for their product. This ultimately results in a loss of sales that is not recoverable. The fact is the delays have rendered the XMC-1 pretty much obsolete by the time it comes to market, a couple of years too late. Can the fanboys even see that?
I guess not but why would I care?
I come to this thread not so much for information (what else is there to know?) but just to see how stirred up members here get over a product they know they won't even buy.
I don't see this going on with any other manufacturer.
Maybe if they charged Theta money for their products it would be different?
Because i doubt what goes on in this thread wouldn't be tolerated as well in the theta thread.

Just a thought.

Back to tech talk!

So no Atmos for this thing?
It should be able to do at least 5.2.2.
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post #655 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:21 AM
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It's interesting how we see this differently. IMO, Atmos will become the new de facto standard for AVRs and processors. Just like DD 5.1 did after ProLogic. So any unit not featuring Atmos will be looked at like a ProLogic unit was once discrete 5.1 had arrived. Outdated.

Emo launching an Atmosless unit now the mainstream has gone that way will be like a company launching a ProLogic unit once the rest of the industry had moved to DD 5.1.
I don't know.
Are other companies launching AVPs at the smaller scale like Emotiva also offering Atmos?

Let me look at the Cary, Theta, Krell, Outlaw, etc threads and check.

If not, we should all go there and tell them their new products are no good also.
We know all we need to know now on paper right?

Fair is fair.

Now I sound like a fanboy and I'm not even getting this.
(I am a forum member, not the same thing)

You guys make people a little crazy.
I'll go back to the Pioneer thread now.
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post #656 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:22 AM
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This is all self-inflicted damage by Emotiva. It is their own reputation that is damaged which results in customer non-confidence for their product. This ultimately results in a loss of sales that is not recoverable. The fact is the delays have rendered the XMC-1 pretty much obsolete by the time it comes to market, a couple of years too late. Can the fanboys even see that?
I don't know about that. I mean their amps are pretty good and having Carver amp tecno can only make their amps better. I would imagine that the tube amps are going to be very good. I just believe they are reaching for the stars with the XMC-1. Should have just went another route with software like Audyssey and got these things on the market years ago and built up to a dirac unit. Would have been much more respect.
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post #657 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:42 AM
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I guess not but why would I care?
I come to this thread not so much for information (what else is there to know?) but just to see how stirred up members here get over a product they know they won't even buy.
I don't see this going on with any other manufacturer.
Maybe if they charged Theta money for their products it would be different?
Because i doubt what goes on in this thread wouldn't be tolerated as well in the theta thread.

Just a thought.

Back to tech talk!

So no Atmos for this thing?

It should be able to do at least 5.2.2.
You miss the point, many people here are customers of Emotiva and have purchased many of their products. These are the customers who have lost faith because of Emotiva's behavior with respect to their processor developments.

Nobody likes to see a company fail, but there is no sympathy when continued false statements about product development and schedule are made year after year which are blown off as if that had never happened. It is a combination of vainglorious ineptitude and marketing mendaciousness that we have been witnessing.

Why one would want to be a fanboy is beyond me beside those who have cult-like attachments?
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Last edited by xcapri79; 06-23-2014 at 05:48 AM.
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post #658 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I don't know about that. I mean their amps are pretty good and having Carver amp tecno can only make their amps better. I would imagine that the tube amps are going to be very good. I just believe they are reaching for the stars with the XMC-1. Should have just went another route with software like Audyssey and got these things on the market years ago and built up to a dirac unit. Would have been much more respect.
We are not talking about their amps or any other of their products here, just their processor development and specifically the XMC-1.
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post #659 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 06:00 AM
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Everyone has their issues.
The last Cary unit is almost a clone of the UMC, Krell at least lets you upgrade their HDMI boards to a newer spec but it costs you $1000 US to do so, etc.

Their customers tend to keep those pieces because of the sheer amount of $$$ (or in you case £££ ) invested.
At least the Emotiva units while in some case just as buggy, you can just buy a different unit for the same price as another company's "upgrade".

So I guess it comes down to one's perspective on the situation.

These debates at times seem to be more often than not "us" (AVS members) vs "them" (Emotiva members) debates than really discussing the pros and cons of any said product.
If we only did that this thread would only be 2 pages at most.
Again you make some good points IMO. Especially wrt to Emotiva's value for money proposition. You may know that I am not a huge believer in electronics making much, if any, audible difference to sound quality (REQ systems aside of course). Any differences between electronic components, (discounting the use of DSP and REQ which by definition are designed to change the sound) pale into insignificance compared to the differences that speakers, subs, placement and the room make. So I doubt if anyone will ever see me in the "high end" electronics threads any time soon. I tend to spend my time (and money) on those things that I know will make an audible difference, not those that won't.

It's difficult to talk details about the XMC-1 at this time of course, as so few details are currently known for sure. We still have, for example, no concrete knowledge of their version of Dirac and how it will perform in real live situations. Like I said elsewhere recently, trying to discuss the XMC-1 in those terms is a bit like trying to discuss the singing voice and piano-playing abilities of someone who hasn't been born yet.
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post #660 of 1211 Old 06-23-2014, 06:00 AM
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It's interesting how we see this differently. IMO, Atmos will become the new de facto standard for AVRs and processors. Just like DD 5.1 did after ProLogic. So any unit not featuring Atmos will be looked at like a ProLogic unit was once discrete 5.1 had arrived. Outdated.

Emo launching an Atmosless unit now the mainstream has gone that way will be like a company launching a ProLogic unit once the rest of the industry had moved to DD 5.1.
I'm not so sure. For 99.9% of people without 13+ channel setups, the difference will be pretty subtle. And for those few with the 13+ channel setups, the difference will only show up for a few select scenes in a few select movies.

On the other hand, going to DD/DTS was a very audible leap in quality and localization in even 5 channel setups. It made movie audio quite a bit more enjoyable and immersive for a lot of people (although probably still under 10%).

Don't get me wrong. I'll probably end up setting up 13+ channels at some point, but I'm not assuming that most of the world is like me.

Ironically, when I say that good room correction and flexible routing are the revolutions, the big advance that that Atmos brings most people is flexible routing.

It is interesting to note that 13+ channels combined with good room correction are a bad combination from the standpoint of processing requirements. Maybe that's why Onkyo is dropping XT32 from their high-end, as well. Atmos also sounds processing intensive.

I thought it was strange that the XMC-1 is going to offer per-channel EQ and Dirac simultaneously, since most XT32 amps don't provide that. Maybe they felt like it makes up for the lack of user target curves or makes it accessible to a wider audience. IMO, it's a significant waste of processing, unless they managed to merge it with Dirac's FIRs.
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