Emotiva XMC-1 coming soon (please limit posts to technical issues) - Page 26 - AVS Forum
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post #751 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Never ! THe announcement of Dolby Atmos sent this thing to the bottom of the ocean.
They were already sinking "beyond expectations" by self-inflicted causes before the iceberg that is Dolby Atmos was announced.

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post #752 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 06:07 AM
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Never ! THe announcement of Dolby Atmos sent this thing to the bottom of the ocean.
Just like krell, Classe, Outlaw, Bryston, and all of the other companies not releasing an Atmos device this year?

Even if this thing came out supporting 5.1.2, it would still be criticised for only doing 5.1.2.

Can we wait until these actually ship before sinking the ship?

is there even a ship? but that is not a tech topic question so I'll drop it right there.
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post #753 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 06:13 AM
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Emotiva has given us some fine amplifiers and some decent CD players, preamps and speakers, but they haven't been very successful with the more challenging processors. They further dug themselves into a deep hole with respect to their credibility in the marketplace with unfulfilled promises, repeated misstatements, and poor website management over a period of several years.

It is plainly evident that there is a complete lack of professional software engineering and project management involved with this XMC-1 project. Everything they do seems to come from "the seat of their pants" and wishful thinking. They are unwilling to take sound advice and stubbornly will not learn from past mistakes and learn their own limitations. Their repetitive delays continually move the XMC-1 into repetitive obsolescence.

The XMC-1 is truly "beyond expectations". Unfortunately this is exactly opposite of what they intended.
All fair points and valid points of view until they finally release this thing.
And if they do and it doesn't perform just cements these views.
I hope not even though I'm not in the market for this.
I don't wish bad things on people.
Karma always seems to bite me back so I know better.
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post #754 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 06:31 AM
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Karma doesn't bite back when you reveal the truth. I would say that Emotiva created its own negative Karma with several years of repeated false promises and misleading hype concerning this XMC-1 product. Their fanboys also ignore all of this and continue to enable Emotiva's behavior which fuels the ego of their management which in turn escalates their problems "beyond expectations."

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post #755 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Just like krell, Classe, Outlaw, Bryston, and all of the other companies not releasing an Atmos device this year?

Even if this thing came out supporting 5.1.2, it would still be criticised for only doing 5.1.2.

Can we wait until these actually ship before sinking the ship?

is there even a ship? but that is not a tech topic question so I'll drop it right there.
It is really hard for these companies to keep up with the big box companies with all the new formats always coming out. Much harder for a team of a few engineers to get this done then a big team like at Onkyo. Still wouldn't buy this without Atmos at this point. if buying a new pre amp or avr I would want atmos at this point.
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post #756 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 06:51 AM
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It is really hard for these companies to keep up with the big box companies with all the new formats always coming out. Much harder for a team of a few engineers to get this done then a big team like at Onkyo. Still wouldn't buy this without Atmos at this point. if buying a new pre amp or avr I would want atmos at this point.
This is so true. The software-based technologies have progressed to the point where "old school" engineering cannot compete. We've seen this in many other industries. We are also seeing old companies get out of the business and other companies with bonafide high tech smarts take over.
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post #757 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 07:10 AM
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It is really hard for these companies to keep up with the big box companies with all the new formats always coming out. Much harder for a team of a few engineers to get this done then a big team like at Onkyo.
All the new formats are usually already supported by the chip manufacturers. So, there is not much to do for them to incorporate it into the product. There is still a lot of work to integrate it with their own hardware, but in reality such things are rarely done by large teams, even in companies much larger than Onkyo. Large team is often a brake in the development, not something that accelerates it or makes it better.
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post #758 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 07:12 AM
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This is so true. The software-based technologies have progressed to the point where "old school" engineering cannot compete. We've seen this in many other industries. We are also seeing old companies get out of the business and other companies with bonafide high tech smarts take over.
The sad part about it is you don't get the same quality analogue components from the big name manufacturers on the flip side you don't get the latest software from the little guy. Getting very complex now with object based sound and room correction technology. Even the big guys are starting to have to pick and choose what to put in there latest receivers because they just don't have enough processing power to do everything.
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post #759 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 07:42 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Just like krell, Classe, Outlaw, Bryston, and all of the other companies not releasing an Atmos device this year?

Even if this thing came out supporting 5.1.2, it would still be criticised for only doing 5.1.2.

Can we wait until these actually ship before sinking the ship?

is there even a ship? but that is not a tech topic question so I'll drop it right there.
Yep, they are all dinosaurs if they don't get on board. But really I don't know why I am even worried about this thing anymore.

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post #760 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 07:47 AM
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Originally Posted by xcapri79 View Post
Karma doesn't bite back when you reveal the truth. I would say that Emotiva created its own negative Karma with several years of repeated false promises and misleading hype concerning this XMC-1 product. Their fanboys also ignore all of this and continue to enable Emotiva's behavior which fuels the ego of their management which in turn escalates their problems "beyond expectations."
...and what is the problem with that if sales for them continue to be strong?

Their beliefs (fanboys as you refer to) should not require you to also believe in them.
So I don't get why you behave as if they do?

Not trying to poke you but trying to get an understanding on the whole "battle".

But this is really a discussion for another thread.
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post #761 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 07:48 AM
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Yep, they are all dinosaurs if they don't get on board. But really I don't know why I am even worried about this thing anymore.
My point exactly, why are we all worked up over this product again?
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post #762 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
Never ! THe announcement of Dolby Atmos sent this thing to the bottom of the ocean.
I pretty much have been saying the same for a while. The endless delays have meant that by the time it is released, it will be yesterday's old tech. There are $600 AVRs with preouts that would be a better buy than an XMC-1 IMO. It only has Dirac going for it now - and that will have to be better than Audyssey's XT32 for it to be meaningful.
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post #763 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:00 AM
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My point exactly, why are we all worked up over this product again?
It's just something to chat about while we wait. And wait. And wait...
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post #764 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:06 AM
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My point exactly, why are we all worked up over this product again?

Emotiva's scoring low on the veracity scale, and that hurts them.
It is in their best interests to do better communicating with their base and potential customers.


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post #765 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:18 AM
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There are $600 AVRs with preouts that would be a better buy than an XMC-1 IMO.
Dirac alone (standalone PC version) is already more than that, so... if you do not have more money, then it is probably better buy, but if you do - they are not comparable. And yes, Dirac is better than XT32 (not to mention issues with quality of Audyssey mic/pre-amp calibration, that is really a win or lose - pure lottery, add here $650 for Pro version), and pre-outs on $600 AVR are of lesser quality... and no - they are far from sonically transparent... quite commonly unfortunately.
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post #766 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:19 AM
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Emotiva's scoring low on the veracity scale, and that hurts them.
It is in their best interests to do better communicating with their base and potential customers.


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Wow, so everyone in this thread a potential customer?
I thought not judging by the posts.

...all kidding aside, good point indeed.
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post #767 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:27 AM
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Dirac alone (standalone PC version) is already more than that, so... if you do not have more money, then it is probably better buy, but if you do - they are not comparable. And yes, Dirac is better than XT32 (not to mention issues with quality of Audyssey mic/pre-amp calibration, that is really a win or lose - pure lottery, add here $650 for Pro version), and pre-outs on $600 AVR are of lesser quality... and no - they are far from sonically transparent... quite commonly unfortunately.
Well, at this time we have no idea what Dirac LE is, so whether it is as good, better or worse than existing versions of Dirac is not known, and therefore we have no idea if Dirac LE, whatever it is, is as good, better or worse than XT32.

I’d need to see some measurements to support the view that preouts on an AVR are sonically inferior to a dedicated processor, before I believed it. Electronics, of the modern SS kind, in my view contribute very, very little to sound quality differences (REQ and DSP apart of course for obvious reasons).

I think the XMC-1 will live or die on the quality of Dirac LE. It will have to blow XT32 out of the water for people to put up with tech that is three years behind the times IMO. And even then, Atmos will deliver the death blow. All just IMO of course.


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post #768 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by bootman_head_fi View Post
Wow, so everyone in this thread a potential customer?
I thought not judging by the posts.

...all kidding aside, good point indeed.
Potential customer for other Emo products maybe. If the brand contamination that the XMC-1 'launch' has caused hasn't put everyone but the fanboys off Emotiva for good.


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post #769 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:36 AM
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Potential customer for other Emo products maybe. If the brand contamination that the XMC-1 'launch' has caused hasn't put everyone but the fanboys off Emotiva for good.
I plan to buy one of their amps..not sure when so I tell myself.."It's coming soon"..
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post #770 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:41 AM
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I plan to buy one of their amps..not sure when so I tell myself.."It's coming soon"..
LOL. I can highly recommend their amps. I have four of them and they have all performed flawlessly for years now. And there is no denying their fantastic value for money.

If I was going to buy a new amp and, for whatever reason, I didn’t want an Emotiva, I'd look at Pro amps like the Crown XLS series.


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post #771 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 09:11 AM
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In the fall of 2012 I was shopping for processors in the sub $2000 range and the XMC-1 was of real interest along with the Onkyo PRSC and Denon 4311. The onkyo won out for price/performance(claimed)/availability. The processor has been wonderful and sounds great in my house. I still keep track of the XMC1 and now the 4520 and the new Atmos processors because I count on this part of my system needing to be changed out every 3 to 5 years. The comedy I see to this thread is the time to market - I would be spitting mad if I had waited and believed the claimed release dates. Since I did not wait a read this thread for amusement and hope that the XMC1 sounds fabulous and is solid when released. There is a very hopeful part of me that wants a very good processor to be made in the USA and not cost over $2000. That being said, every day that the unit is not released raises my B.S. radar and makes me more leery to consider buying anything from Emotiva. Anything!
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post #772 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 10:08 AM
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Well, at this time we have no idea what Dirac LE is, so whether it is as good, better or worse than existing versions of Dirac is not known, and therefore we have no idea if Dirac LE, whatever it is, is as good, better or worse than XT32.
We know it is the same as any other Dirac Live just for $100 over the price of XMC-1 (the only difference you do not have the license to use it on second device - usually you get 'second license' for free with Dirac). And it is much more realistic difference than Audyssey vs Pro. And without those $100 it is again the same except target curve is fixed aka 'Audyssey Reference' or 'Movie' curve. Not quite a choice, but the mic is still individually calibrated, so less issues due to mic variance.

Ahh.. and it is limited to 48kHz sampling rate, but we know - it is really not an issue as long as it does proper math.

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I’d need to see some measurements to support the view that preouts on an AVR are sonically inferior to a dedicated processor, before I believed it.
I have varying frequency response on mine pre-outs depending on MV level (with a 2dB step appearing in the midrange!!! not something on the sides of the audio band) and clicking mute on pre-outs just kills me... I've seen heavy increase in distortion at high frequencies on some other devices. The reports from users that some brands have varying quality depending on what is connected to HDMI as a source suggests there are jitter issues (very tricky to measure, but I doubted it also myself heavily as it seems totally unrealistic that someone in 2000-nds is not able to put and correctly tune a decent, but really cheap circuit called PLL, invented and heavily adapted somewhere in 60-s, but I've heard how bad can be the difference). All different reasons, but most are flawed in one way or another (it is easy to get into conspiracy theories seeing all this ).

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Electronics, of the modern SS kind, in my view contribute very, very little to sound quality differences (REQ and DSP apart of course for obvious reasons).
They shouldn't contribute... but they do... just because people who are doing (and also driving) technology often careless, sometimes lazy, sometimes (a lot more often than I would like it to be) just incompetent. Usually because the one who pays doesn't care anyway (the root of the evil in my POV).

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I think the XMC-1 will live or die on the quality of Dirac LE. It will have to blow XT32 out of the water for people to put up with tech that is three years behind the times IMO. And even then, Atmos will deliver the death blow. All just IMO of course.
There are a lot of people (me included) who do not want or simply cannot put more than 5 channels in their room but still want the best sound they can get out of it. For them there is absolutely no advantage in Atmos and actually there is no other alternative than XMC-1, would it being selling. It would be the most balanced AV processor, although I agree - a bit too pricy for the hardware they use, but still there is nothing in cheaper range that can beat it within those conditions.

I am most probably will not go the XMC-1 route, because I would like to try the DIY route... Including the EQ. But if that would be inaccomplishable for me (or if after all I will find myself too lazy) I would go with XMC-1, and if it is not released - a HTPC with a Dirac.
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post #773 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 10:23 AM
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Wow, so everyone in this thread a potential customer?
I thought not judging by the posts.

...all kidding aside, good point indeed.
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post #774 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 10:29 AM
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Good reply, Igor. Thanks.


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post #775 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 12:04 PM
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Had they just paid the audessey licensing fees they could have had a product on the market 4 years ago. While Diriac may prove to be better by the time it comes to market it may be game over. I thought several weeks ago the delay was due to implementation of Diriac - I am not sure it is not fees for the amout of processing emotiva wants vice what they are willing to pay.

I get Emotiva's desire to stand out from the crowd. But small companies tend to do best by focusing on the analog side and partnering with well established players for the digital/programming side.
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post #776 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 01:03 PM
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I find Keith L's comment about not being able to trust the hotel WiFi problematic on a number of fronts. If it was ONLY their concern about the WiFi speed they could have:

1. Arranged with the hotel to provide wired broadband connectivity. I've done many a meeting and in most cases when you work in advance with the hotel, particularly a modern and upscale one such as they were in last month, the Banquet Services people can "turn on" the wired jacks you always find in meeting rooms.

2. Failing that, it would have been easy enough to get a 4G hotspot from a wireless carrier such as Verizon, AT&T, Sprint, T-Mobile, etc. THe one I have typically delivers 5Mbps.

3. The claim is along the lines of no faith in the hotel wifi. If that is the case, it prompts one to ask what the requirements are to send up and download back the files. What level of speed is required? How big ARE the files? Yes, some hotel wifi systems are a bit slow, but even if choice #1 , above, isn't available, most hotels deliver a reliable 2Mbps or more. And, though I doubt it, is there any speed required? If so, what is it? Will that be a limitation for those who might buy an XMC?

If speed, itself, isn't a problem, and I suspect that it is not, I just don't see why the any of the three above options wouldn't have made the connection for them to demo Dirac. Sorry, something just isn't right with this excuse. I could be wrong, but don't see what the problem was if it was JUST a "connection issue".
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post #777 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 01:35 PM
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I think it is more along the lines of they "fixed" something that "broke" something and thus could not provide an "adequate" demo.

Seems convenient IMO, but that is just my opinion. I really have no reason to trust anything Emo says at this point given their continued misdirection with the XMC-1.
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post #778 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
I pretty much have been saying the same for a while. The endless delays have meant that by the time it is released, it will be yesterday's old tech. There are $600 AVRs with preouts that would be a better buy than an XMC-1 IMO. It only has Dirac going for it now - and that will have to be better than Audyssey's XT32 for it to be meaningful.
I know that you have said it allot but I was not so sure that Atmos would hurt the XMC-1. Even with the announcement of Atmos, I was still set on getting the XMC-1 myself. I wanted something simple, Dirac was a plus, be great for music and you would still have a great unit for home theater, not to mention the XMC-1 is pretty classy looking. However, Atmos really seemed to explode over the forums in the past couple of weeks and the more discussion I read, the more I became interested. To be honest, I have actually been more excited over it than anything and realizing that Atmos is possible in anybody's system and it is the direction I now want to go. Atmos is really the biggest thing to come to audio in a decade and to my surprise allot of guys are eating this up and I think it is going to be huge. Something I thought 10% of the HT market would go after, I have now changed that to probably 75% or more will be setting up and going with Atmos. There are still going to be lots of people interested in the XMC-1, but I really don't see the popularity it once had even if it was shipped tomorrow.
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post #779 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 01:46 PM
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^^^
I am not sure I follow. The majority of systems are 5.1 and 7.1, I am not sure how many will opt for ceiling or ceiling bank shot speakers.
HT itself has been on the wane. Personal Audio and soundbars are the rage


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post #780 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 04:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefdvr27 View Post
I know that you have said it allot but I was not so sure that Atmos would hurt the XMC-1. Even with the announcement of Atmos, I was still set on getting the XMC-1 myself. I wanted something simple, Dirac was a plus, be great for music and you would still have a great unit for home theater, not to mention the XMC-1 is pretty classy looking. However, Atmos really seemed to explode over the forums in the past couple of weeks and the more discussion I read, the more I became interested. To be honest, I have actually been more excited over it than anything and realizing that Atmos is possible in anybody's system and it is the direction I now want to go. Atmos is really the biggest thing to come to audio in a decade and to my surprise allot of guys are eating this up and I think it is going to be huge. Something I thought 10% of the HT market would go after, I have now changed that to probably 75% or more will be setting up and going with Atmos. There are still going to be lots of people interested in the XMC-1, but I really don't see the popularity it once had even if it was shipped tomorrow.
There's no question Atmos is a total revolution - object audio is here to stay and it is the biggest news the AV world has had for a long time wrt to movie audio. I think more people, like you, will come to realise that Atmos is doable in their Hts. All it takes to get started is a new AVR (and they are available from very modest prices) and some of the on-speaker 'modules' that fire up the ceiling. That is going to be very easy for most people to arrange, and at fairly modest cost. By all accounts, the add-on modules deliver a fantastic Atmos experience that has to be heard to believed. Some will want the full-blow, maximum speaker possibility, with in-ceiling or on-ceiling speakers for sure - but that is not a necessity, which opens up Atmos to pretty much everyone. I think people are beginning to see what some of us have been saying when we said the XMC-1 is too little, too late.
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