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post #781 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 04:11 PM
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Not only that but we've yet to see the studio commitment to Atmos. At the end of the day content is definitely king and we've heard absolutely nada from the studios about Atmos soundtracks. And with the majority of studios doing DTS-HD MA exclusively on their BDs at the moment there would have to be a paradigm shift for the market to all of a sudden have a lot of Dolby content unless you're talking about streaming content. I was honestly hoping for the initial Dolby press release and unveil to have a list of studios on board and titles in the works. Just because a movie had an Atmos theatrical release in no way guarantees it will see the same in its home release. And who knows if DTS has already locked up their regulars for what they have coming down the pipe. Way too many variables and unknowns still to get me too excited about Atmos at home.
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post #782 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 04:13 PM
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^^^
I am not sure I follow. The majority of systems are 5.1 and 7.1, I am not sure how many will opt for ceiling or ceiling bank shot speakers.
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The people who are enjoying earbuds and soundbars are not the target market for Atmos, much like most people are not the target market for Porsches. That doesn't stop Porsche from being immensely successful in its own right.

The fact that the "majority" of systems are 5.1 or 7.1 is perfect for Atmos. Just buy 4 relatively inexpensive Atmos speaker modules, put them on top of your existing FL, FR and surround speakers and you are all set (with your new AVR of course). Not many will opt for in/on-ceiling speakers - probably only those with dedicated rooms. But most people have a flat 8ft ceiling - perfect for the modules.
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post #783 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Kris Deering View Post
Not only that but we've yet to see the studio commitment to Atmos. At the end of the day content is definitely king and we've heard absolutely nada from the studios about Atmos soundtracks. And with the majority of studios doing DTS-HD MA exclusively on their BDs at the moment there would have to be a paradigm shift for the market to all of a sudden have a lot of Dolby content unless you're talking about streaming content. I was honestly hoping for the initial Dolby press release and unveil to have a list of studios on board and titles in the works. Just because a movie had an Atmos theatrical release in no way guarantees it will see the same in its home release. And who knows if DTS has already locked up their regulars for what they have coming down the pipe. Way too many variables and unknowns still to get me too excited about Atmos at home.
So do you really think, Kris, that Onkyo, Denon, Marantz and Pioneer (with Yamaha about to unveil) have all decided that their entire new range of AVRs for fall 2014 will incorporate a system that will have little or no content behind it? I mean, really? They've all invested vast amounts into new product lines without being sure that content would be available?

And why do you think that a movie mixed for an Atmos theatrical release wouldn’t have a corresponding Bluray release, when all the work has already been done? One of the beauties of Atmos is how it is scalable to home theater.
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post #784 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 05:06 PM
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So do you really think, Kris, that Onkyo, Denon, Marantz and Pioneer (with Yamaha about to unveil) have all decided that their entire new range of AVRs for fall 2014 will incorporate a system that will have little or no content behind it? I mean, really? They've all invested vast amounts into new product lines without being sure that content would be available?

And why do you think that a movie mixed for an Atmos theatrical release wouldn’t have a corresponding Bluray release, when all the work has already been done? One of the beauties of Atmos is how it is scalable to home theater.
Um, what do anything that the CE companies do have anything to do with what the studios are going to do?? This isn't one of those build it and they will come things. Do you know how many technologies the CE companies have put in hardware that have gone completely unused by the studios releasing content? I'm not saying that we'll never see any Atmos content, anything but, but we CLEARLY see studios overwhelmingly supporting DTS over Dolby in the Blu-ray market space and unless they decide that they are going to forgo that arrangement and cater to Dolby now (and I'm sure those arrangements are made by licensing fees so they have their own deals in place that have absolutely NOTHING to do with what CE companies are or aren't putting in their products) there is a chance that Atmos soundtracks could be very scarce. And you're still ignoring the FACT that we know that DTS has their own solution in the works and could have very well snatched up those same studios that are supporting them now for that system down the line. I've seen lots of "the next big thing" go by the way side despite the overwhelming craze of people clamoring to it. And I can't help but think that if Atmos had a lot of studio support there would have been a lot of that buzz in the rollout as opposed to something along the lines of their will be titles later this year. I've been to WAY too many CE based product and feature launches to know that they absolutely love name dropping for stuff like this. So yes, call me hesitant or skeptical, but I've NEVER been a kool-aid drinker for anything, especially the kool-aid that hasn't even made it to market yet. But I am definitely holding out hope.

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post #785 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 05:11 PM
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Let's go another way with this Keith, how many titles were eventually released with DTS NEO X? Now how many AVRs and processors have this feature? Obviously not billed as the second coming when it launched to market but we still see this as a pretty prevalent feature on AVRs and they paid money to put it in their products. The studios responded with what, two titles?? And lets not even get into the last great coming, 3D. I have every expectation that Atmos will probably have a bigger market of titles on Blu-ray than 3D (god I really hope so on that one) but there is also more competition in the pipeline including a MAJOR surround sound competitor that seems to be the belle of the ball with the studios and their Blu-ray support at the moment. Heck even 7.1 isn't the mainstay even for soundtracks that were more than 5.1 in the theaters.

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post #786 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 05:44 PM
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Personally I cant wait for Porcupine Tree to release music in 5.1.4! To bad Pink Floyd members are old and hate each other, imagine something like the Meddle or Atom Heart Mother albums in Atmos. Would be epic.
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post #787 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 06:09 PM
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Personally I cant wait for Porcupine Tree to release music in 5.1.4! To bad Pink Floyd members are old and hate each other, imagine something like the Meddle or Atom Heart Mother albums in Atmos. Would be epic.
I agree, a 5.1.4 of Wish You Were Here or DSOTM would be awesome too. But Roger Waters is too much into his solo career and politics these days. Maybe Bruce or Talking Heads...we can dream, anyway...
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post #788 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 06:21 PM
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There's no question Atmos is a total revolution ...
Can you define for me a "total revolution" in the film-making/AV context? Maybe I can get an idea of what this phrase means to you in the following way. Let's say that with respect to the status quo ante a "total revolution" (Atmos) is a 10, a mere revolution is a 7, evolution is a 4, and no change at all is a 0. What numbers are attached to the following?

hand-held movie camera, camera dolly, editing, film compositing, color, widescreen, stereoscopic imaging, digital camera, steadicam, CGI

sound, sound compositing, (3 channel Bell) stereo, Disney Fantasound, multi-track recording, quadraphonic, dolby surround/matrixing, dolby digital surround

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post #789 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:03 PM
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Let's go another way with this Keith, how many titles were eventually released with DTS NEO X? Now how many AVRs and processors have this feature? Obviously not billed as the second coming when it launched to market but we still see this as a pretty prevalent feature on AVRs and they paid money to put it in their products. The studios responded with what, two titles??
I'm surprised anyone released any titles at all.

Neo:X matrix surround processing was released as the successor to Neo:6 matrix surround processing. The fact that one studio decided to use it instead for matrix encoding/decoding as a lark on 3 titles is not only surprising but in no way analogous to the situation with Atmos.

The studio had to create discrete 11.1 mixes of those 3 movie soundtracks specifically for home video release and matrix them down to 7.1 channels for backwards compatibility. Neither the 11.1 discrete mix nor the 7.1 matrixed Neo:X encode existed for theatrical release. By comparison, Atmos theatrical mixes already exist.

By your logic, PLIIx must have been an even bigger failure than Neo:X, since the studios responded with what, zero titles???

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post #790 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 08:24 PM
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Um, what do anything that the CE companies do have anything to do with what the studios are going to do?? This isn't one of those build it and they will come things. Do you know how many technologies the CE companies have put in hardware that have gone completely unused by the studios releasing content? I'm not saying that we'll never see any Atmos content, anything but, but we CLEARLY see studios overwhelmingly supporting DTS over Dolby in the Blu-ray market space and unless they decide that they are going to forgo that arrangement and cater to Dolby now (and I'm sure those arrangements are made by licensing fees so they have their own deals in place that have absolutely NOTHING to do with what CE companies are or aren't putting in their products) there is a chance that Atmos soundtracks could be very scarce. And you're still ignoring the FACT that we know that DTS has their own solution in the works and could have very well snatched up those same studios that are supporting them now for that system down the line. I've seen lots of "the next big thing" go by the way side despite the overwhelming craze of people clamoring to it. And I can't help but think that if Atmos had a lot of studio support there would have been a lot of that buzz in the rollout as opposed to something along the lines of their will be titles later this year. I've been to WAY too many CE based product and feature launches to know that they absolutely love name dropping for stuff like this. So yes, call me hesitant or skeptical, but I've NEVER been a kool-aid drinker for anything, especially the kool-aid that hasn't even made it to market yet. But I am definitely holding out hope.
Kris, i'm surprised that somebody at your calibre haven't known that Disney and Fox (among others) already have several titles pressed and ready to be launched together with the official announcement of Atmos at CEDIA.

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post #791 of 1211 Old 07-03-2014, 09:46 PM
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Nope. Don't have anything to do with software. Will be interesting to see what's in store at cedia.
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post #792 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 02:57 AM
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Um, what do anything that the CE companies do have anything to do with what the studios are going to do?? This isn't one of those build it and they will come things. Do you know how many technologies the CE companies have put in hardware that have gone completely unused by the studios releasing content? I'm not saying that we'll never see any Atmos content, anything but, but we CLEARLY see studios overwhelmingly supporting DTS over Dolby in the Blu-ray market space and unless they decide that they are going to forgo that arrangement and cater to Dolby now (and I'm sure those arrangements are made by licensing fees so they have their own deals in place that have absolutely NOTHING to do with what CE companies are or aren't putting in their products) there is a chance that Atmos soundtracks could be very scarce. And you're still ignoring the FACT that we know that DTS has their own solution in the works and could have very well snatched up those same studios that are supporting them now for that system down the line. I've seen lots of "the next big thing" go by the way side despite the overwhelming craze of people clamoring to it. And I can't help but think that if Atmos had a lot of studio support there would have been a lot of that buzz in the rollout as opposed to something along the lines of their will be titles later this year. I've been to WAY too many CE based product and feature launches to know that they absolutely love name dropping for stuff like this. So yes, call me hesitant or skeptical, but I've NEVER been a kool-aid drinker for anything, especially the kool-aid that hasn't even made it to market yet. But I am definitely holding out hope.
Well fair enough, Kris. You have your view and you are, of course, entitled to it. I just think it's wrong. I think it is extremely unlikely that a coordinated, world-wide move, involving manufacturers of all the major brands together with Dolby, would be even contemplated if, at the end of the millions of dollars investment, someone suddenly woke up and said "hey, there won't be any content will there, because right now the studios favor DTS for their Blurays." Ignoring of course customer demand from all those who now have Atmos-enabled AVRs (which will be everyone by this time next year who buys a new AVR, because they will all be Atmos units (from the major players).

I guess we'll have to revisit this in some months and see how it panned out in reality.
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post #793 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 03:07 AM
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Let's go another way with this Keith, how many titles were eventually released with DTS NEO X? Now how many AVRs and processors have this feature? Obviously not billed as the second coming when it launched to market but we still see this as a pretty prevalent feature on AVRs and they paid money to put it in their products. The studios responded with what, two titles?? And lets not even get into the last great coming, 3D. I have every expectation that Atmos will probably have a bigger market of titles on Blu-ray than 3D (god I really hope so on that one) but there is also more competition in the pipeline including a MAJOR surround sound competitor that seems to be the belle of the ball with the studios and their Blu-ray support at the moment. Heck even 7.1 isn't the mainstay even for soundtracks that were more than 5.1 in the theaters.
There is no comparison between an upscaling algorithim that sort-of-works, a bit, and that has no theatrical counterpart, and Atmos. Every major development in home AV has been seen first in theaters and then it has trickled down to the home. That isn’t the case with Neo:X and maybe explains what you call its failure. But essentially I can't see a valid comparison there. The two titles were 'optimised upscaling' that's all. Neo:X works with any content (as well as it works with anything at all) and I imagine many people with height and wide speakers do use it. I, for example, permanently use PLIIz to support my existing height speakers and it works well enough for what it is. But it is light years from being object-based, 3 dimensional sound with objects placed precisely on x, y, z co-ordinates and given a 'size' of 0-100.

I don't know how many of the 3D movies released theatrically were not also released on Bluray. Are you saying that not many were? I thought most of them were BICBW. Have there even been 160 3D movies in total (the number of current Atmos releases)? Studios can hardly release 3D Blurays if movies aren't being made in 3D in quantity can they? Can't see the point of the analogy TBH.

The problem DTS have with their 'belle of the ball' status is this: remind me again how many movies there are in theaters that have a DTS UHD mix? I counted about 160 Atmos movies I think last time I checked, and the number is rising exponentially now. On my current wish list at Amazon, for upcoming movies on BD, only two of 12 are NOT mixed in Atmos. But you say that studios will, what, just hope that DTS catches on in theaters and ignore the ever more successful Atmos in the meantime? Really?
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post #794 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 03:12 AM
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Can you define for me a "total revolution" in the film-making/AV context? Maybe I can get an idea of what this phrase means to you in the following way. Let's say that with respect to the status quo ante a "total revolution" (Atmos) is a 10, a mere revolution is a 7, evolution is a 4, and no change at all is a 0. What numbers are attached to the following?

hand-held movie camera, camera dolly, editing, film compositing, color, widescreen, stereoscopic imaging, digital camera, steadicam, CGI

sound, sound compositing, (3 channel Bell) stereo, Disney Fantasound, multi-track recording, quadraphonic, dolby surround/matrixing, dolby digital surround
Object based audio is a revolution. All the other sound-related things you mention are channel based. Atmos is object based. Everything you mention that has nothing to do with sound is not relevant.

Feel free to disagree.
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post #795 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 03:14 AM
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Nope. Don't have anything to do with software. Will be interesting to see what's in store at cedia.
Now you tell me! After I just spent part of my life replying to your post which was all about software!
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post #796 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 03:19 AM
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Kris, i'm surprised that somebody at your calibre haven't known that Disney and Fox (among others) already have several titles pressed and ready to be launched together with the official announcement of Atmos at CEDIA.
Given the classic, worldwide, co-ordinated, text-book product launch that we are seeing with Atmos and the major AVR brands (I speak with decades of professional experience of product launches) I'd have been shocked if it was not the case. Thanks for confirming it.
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post #797 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 05:24 AM
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Object based audio is a revolution. All the other sound-related things you mention are channel based. Atmos is object based. Everything you mention that has nothing to do with sound is not relevant.

Feel free to disagree.
From what I have read, HT Atmos is a standard mix with up to 4 objects layered on.
If that is correct, it hardly seems revolutionary.


3D was a much larger event in the HT world and it has taken over the HT environment.
It is not possible to buy products without.
So, 3D some churn in the home electronics but not for media sales.
Is 3D considered a success in the home market?


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post #798 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 06:20 AM
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^^^
I am not sure I follow. The majority of systems are 5.1 and 7.1, I am not sure how many will opt for ceiling or ceiling bank shot speakers.
HT itself has been on the wane. Personal Audio and soundbars are the rage


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Here is what I am saying.

Lets say that it is August or September and the XMC 1 is released in August, however we all know that the majority of the big name companies have committed to an Atmos capable unit and have given a target date of September. Would you still buy the XMC 1 or would the curiosity of new technology eat at you? If you get the XMC1, you will never have the opportunity to at least try it, however if you went with the Marantz 8802, the door would still be wide open. Even if you don't plan on using Atmos, it is still nice to know that you could if you change your mind later on. Why would anyone spend $2K on a pre pro and say I will wait for Atmos to be perfected when you can get a better unit like the 8802 and know it is capable. Don't get me wrong, not everyone is going to want get involved, however my hunch is that as soon as these new Atmos AVR's are released and everybody around here starts posting about how awesome Atmos is, it is going to eat at allot of people and they are going to jump on board. Any avid AVS'r knows that people around here will figure this all out and it will become quite easy to enable any existing theater or media room over to an Atmos room.

Believe me, when I first heard about Atmos for home theater, I completely dismissed it, but now thinking it over, it will not be that hard to convert over to it. I mean can you imagine how awesome it will sound in your own theater? I know Atmos is certainly pretty far off, but Christmas will be here before you know it and I would imagine that Atmos should be taking off pretty good by then.
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post #799 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 06:22 AM
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Is 3D considered a success in the home market?
This is the point. It is a lot easier to sell 3D (even if it is not what customer needs), than better picture quality. Same with Atmos...
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post #800 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 06:26 AM
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From what I have read, HT Atmos is a standard mix with up to 4 objects layered on.
If that is correct, it hardly seems revolutionary.

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Where did you read that?
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post #801 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 06:31 AM
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Here is what I am saying.

Lets say that it is August or September and the XMC 1 is released in August, however we all know that the majority of the big name companies have committed to an Atmos capable unit and have given a target date of September. Would you still buy the XMC 1 or would the curiosity of new technology eat at you? If you get the XMC1, you will never have the opportunity to at least try it, however if you went with the Marantz 8802, the door would still be wide open. Even if you don't plan on using Atmos, it is still nice to know that you could if you change your mind later on. Why would anyone spend $2K on a pre pro and say I will wait for Atmos to be perfected when you can get a better unit like the 8802 and know it is capable. Don't get me wrong, not everyone is going to want get involved, however my hunch is that as soon as these new Atmos AVR's are released and everybody around here starts posting about how awesome Atmos is, it is going to eat at allot of people and they are going to jump on board. Any avid AVS'r knows that people around here will figure this all out and it will become quite easy to enable any existing theater or media room over to an Atmos room.

Believe me, when I first heard about Atmos for home theater, I completely dismissed it, but know thinking it over, it will not be that hard to convert over to it. I mean can you imagine how awesome it will sound in your own theater? I know Atmos is certainly pretty far off, but Christmas will be here before you know it and I would imagine that Atmos should be taking off pretty good by then.
+1. And when the early adopters (ie me ) are here on AVS, with an Atmos-enabled AVR and a clutch of Atmos Blurays of the latest movies, saying what an amazing experience it is* surely some will just think "hmmm... maybe I really do need to check this out after all.... good job I didn’t just drop 2 grand on an XMC-1..."

* I am, of course, assuming that the glowing reports from trusted industry professionals (I am thinking FilmMixer, David Susilo, Andrew Jones etc) are right. I have no reason to question their judgement or professional integrity. But in a couple of weeks I will be able to report first hand.... cannot say more at this time.
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post #802 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 06:33 AM
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Just buy 4 relatively inexpensive Atmos speaker modules, put them on top of your existing FL, FR and surround speakers and you are all set
with a relatively over-expensive soundbar... All the advertised benefits of object based audio are ruined down to the floor by cheap trick with reflections that create some "space" but kill the accuracy.

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Not many will opt for in/on-ceiling speakers - probably only those with dedicated rooms. But most people have a flat 8ft ceiling - perfect for the modules.
I've just ordered absorbing ceiling, supposed to kill my ceiling reflection that creates a deep wide dip above 120Hz... Now those Atmos toy speakers have no chance to work at all for me
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post #803 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 06:48 AM
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with a relatively over-expensive soundbar... All the advertised benefits of object based audio are ruined down to the floor by cheap trick with reflections that create some "space" but kill the accuracy.
That isn't what those who have heard them say, Igor. Andrew Jones was effusive in his praise of the add-ons. Now you could say he is biased, but personally I trust both his judgement and integrity. I think it is not possible to be sure until one has heard the add-ons onself, but everything I have read, from highly regarded sources, says we will be surprised. I understand that the effect with add-ons is so good that Dolby themselves demo Atmos this way, which reinforces the other things I have read.

Are you speaking from experience? Have you heard the add-on modules?

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I've just ordered absorbing ceiling, supposed to kill my ceiling reflection that creates a deep wide dip above 120Hz... Now those Atmos toy speakers have no chance to work at all for me

Not for me either, as I too have ceiling treatments. I am installing 'real' speakers on the ceiling. But just because it isn’t a good solution for you and me doesn't mean it isn't a good solution full stop.
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post #804 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 07:12 AM
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That isn't what those who have heard them say, Igor. Andrew Jones was effusive in his praise of the add-ons. Now you could say he is biased, but personally I trust both his judgement and integrity.
They are supposed to sell them... so, I cannot expect any other opinion from them.

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I think it is not possible to be sure until one has heard the add-ons onself, but everything I have read, from highly regarded sources, says we will be surprised. I understand that the effect with add-ons is so good that Dolby themselves demo Atmos this way, which reinforces the other things I have read.
I didn't tell it can't be impressive. Sure it is, same as the extra bass and room modes. But not all that is impressive is accurate.

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Are you speaking from experience? Have you heard the add-on modules?
No, I haven't. But I know a little bit of physics and a little bit of (psycho-)acoustics. Enough to understand how those speakers are working, and how they don't. And I could easily extrapolate that with other real-life experience with similar technologies (soundbars again, dipole sound), that also can be very impressive... but still nothing related to accuracy.

But... In the end. If you want to "impress", you don't need Atmos. If you want accuracy, you need to do it right (and it is only Trinnov Altitude that seems to do it that way, but hardly affordable). And if you don't do it right - well, it is no better than anything else, like Neo:X DPLIIz, etc. etc. etc.).
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post #805 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 07:33 AM
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They are supposed to sell them... so, I cannot expect any other opinion from them.
Sure - but these are people of huge credibility, Igor, with professional credentials and reputations to maintain. They are not going to potentially damage that credibility by endorsing products that do not merit their endorsement. Personally, I believe what Andrew Jones says.

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I didn't tell it can't be impressive. Sure it is, same as the extra bass and room modes. But not all that is impressive is accurate.
That is, of course, true. But not having (yet) had the opportunity to hear these modules, I can’t comment on whether they are impressively inaccurate or impressively accurate or not even impressive or accurate.

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No, I haven't. But I know a little bit of physics and a little bit of (psycho-)acoustics. Enough to understand how those speakers are working, and how they don't. And I could easily extrapolate that with other real-life experience with similar technologies (soundbars again, dipole sound), that also can be very impressive... but still nothing related to accuracy.
I know that you know your subject, Igor, and I am one of your biggest supporters for objective measurements and results, as you know. But I still think that you are discussing theory and theory does not always translate into practical reality, especially when a new technology is concerned. To condemn these modules without having heard them seems to me to be premature. Surely keeping an open mind is a good thing?

This is what Andrew Jones had to say in the Pioneer thread:

"As Chris says, I was initially wary of the Atmos system, until I heard it. One of the few times recently where I have entered with a negative attitude, then been won over, and especially by the upward firing driver approach. That's the reason I wanted to implement a speaker design to meet the Atmos requirements. It wasn't a marketing division directive...Chris and I are the team that determines what we design!!"


Andrew designs $80,000 speakers as well as these Atmos modules. I think he is worth listening to (literally).

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But... In the end. If you want to "impress", you don't need Atmos. If you want accuracy, you need to do it right (and it is only Trinnov Altitude that seems to do it that way, but hardly affordable). And if you don't do it right - well, it is no better than anything else, like Neo:X DPLIIz, etc. etc. etc.).
I don't need to impress anyone but myself - I am usually the only person who listens to my HT system critically. What I want is to recreate the Atmos experience the creators intended, in my own home, as far as is possible and practical given all the usual considerations. Of course I want to 'do it right' and for me that means on-ceiling speakers from M&K, who made all my other speakers. But this is not possible for everyone. You seem to be dismissing a solution that will work for many people, and at low cost. It doesn’t have to be perfect, it just has to be better than what they already have
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post #806 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 07:43 AM
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There is no comparison between an upscaling algorithim that sort-of-works, a bit, and that has no theatrical counterpart, and Atmos. Every major development in home AV has been seen first in theaters and then it has trickled down to the home. That isn’t the case with Neo:X and maybe explains what you call its failure. But essentially I can't see a valid comparison there. The two titles were 'optimised upscaling' that's all. Neo:X works with any content (as well as it works with anything at all) and I imagine many people with height and wide speakers do use it. I, for example, permanently use PLIIz to support my existing height speakers and it works well enough for what it is. But it is light years from being object-based, 3 dimensional sound with objects placed precisely on x, y, z co-ordinates and given a 'size' of 0-100.

I don't know how many of the 3D movies released theatrically were not also released on Bluray. Are you saying that not many were? I thought most of them were BICBW. Have there even been 160 3D movies in total (the number of current Atmos releases)? Studios can hardly release 3D Blurays if movies aren't being made in 3D in quantity can they? Can't see the point of the analogy TBH.

The problem DTS have with their 'belle of the ball' status is this: remind me again how many movies there are in theaters that have a DTS UHD mix? I counted about 160 Atmos movies I think last time I checked, and the number is rising exponentially now. On my current wish list at Amazon, for upcoming movies on BD, only two of 12 are NOT mixed in Atmos. But you say that studios will, what, just hope that DTS catches on in theaters and ignore the ever more successful Atmos in the meantime? Really?
I've never said there would be no Atmos mixes on Blu-ray, obviously there will be. And I am not trying to be totally cynical either. I am just trying to taper my enthusiasm a bit until everything has been rolled out and we see exactly what we are or are not getting. It is obvious that your enthusiasm is over the moon for this Keith, and I honestly think that's great. If Atmos is what it takes to give the industry a shot in the arm, wonderful. But like everything else in the CE world there are always going to be challengers and we know that DTS UHD is coming down the pipe and who knows what may or may not happen with Auro.

We saw Dolby Digital EX hit theaters but never a DTS equivalent but yet we have plenty of DTS 7.1 mixes (more than Dolby in the Blu-ray market). The CE market has always taken cues from theatrical but that doesn't mean it will always do the same thing. AVR manufacturers are in the market to sell products and having another new thing to entice you to buy is what it's all about. HOPEFULLY the studios will have great support of Atmos, but nothing is a guarantee. I did find it odd that there was no talk about studio support at the launch but David is saying there will be at CEDIA. Great! But I'm waiting for all the info to be revealed before I go skipping down the yellow brick road and snatching up first generation products that are already showing signs of limitations.

Maybe CEDIA will make me do a complete 180, I hope so, but I still think there is way too much up in the air at the moment for me to get all giddy with excitement.

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post #807 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post





Not for me either, as I too have ceiling treatments. I am installing 'real' speakers on the ceiling. But just because it isn’t a good solution for you and me doesn't mean it isn't a good solution full stop.
I am also adding ceiling speakers. My plan is, I wired my theater for 9.2 and considering I am building my theater now, I took the early steps for it. I wired my current 7.2 sides and rear in wall wires in ceiling. I put the low voltage boxes in the ceiling and left a good amount of wire in the boxes. So by doing that I left the door open for ceiling mounted speakers. So that covers my quick conversion over to my 4 ceiling speakers. Now for sides and rears, I can do one of two things. I can run new wires and use tall stands or I have been looking into flat speaker wire or ghost wire and I can just run that to the new sides and rear surrounds with out having to install new wires in the sheet rock. I also have my front height speakers when needed. I did not prewire for Atmos sides and rears because I don't know the home theater configuration yet. I also have a difficult framing structure to work with, however leaving the door open for just ceiling speakers was the at most importance to me and I am happy I can add ceiling speakers in probably and hour cleanly.

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post #808 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 10:47 AM
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Where did you read that?


I did some searching and could not find it. I'll looks later:


There is this post:


The 'Official' 2014 Denon "S Series" / "X Series" AVR Model Owner's Thread & FAQ


There are less objects but how many, I am not sure.


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post #809 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
The fact that the "majority" of systems are 5.1 or 7.1 is perfect for Atmos. Just buy 4 relatively inexpensive Atmos speaker modules, put them on top of your existing FL, FR and surround speakers and you are all set (with your new AVR of course). Not many will opt for in/on-ceiling speakers - probably only those with dedicated rooms. But most people have a flat 8ft ceiling - perfect for the modules.

My ceiling is not flat. It angles upward from 8 feet to 12 and levels off.
The lack of symmetry in my room is an acoustic advantage, but it does not appear to be Atmos compatible.


Getting a good match for existing speakers is all that easy.


Folks who have a home cinema can benefit from Atmos, but I am not sure about mass appeal.
Many will want to future proof, but without HDCP 2.2 that is also not guaranteed.


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post #810 of 1211 Old 07-04-2014, 11:05 AM
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This is the point. It is a lot easier to sell 3D (even if it is not what customer needs), than better picture quality. Same with Atmos...
Sadly, It is a lot easier to sell 4K than picture quality.


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