need a suggestion for $3000budget receiver - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 25 Old 10-12-2012, 12:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Now i am looking at onkyo 5010 and integra DTR 80.3.
or should i spend more to have pre-amp and power amp?
i am only planning to build a 5.1 system.
any suggestion will be appreciate: )
the receiver will pair with B&W CM9 speaker in the front.
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post #2 of 25 Old 10-12-2012, 12:59 AM
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That's an excellent receiver. You may also want to take a look at the Denon AVR-4520CI, or the Onkyo TX-NR3010. If you want to listen to your system at reference level, or if you want an 11.1 surround setup, you should also get an external amplifier for at least the main LCR speakers. Some amps to look at are the ATI AT1805, the AT2005, the Outlaw 7200, the 7500, or the 7700. If you want to go all out, you can also get a Parasound Halo A51 amp, or if you want to save as much as possible, you can get the Emotiva XPA-5.

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post #3 of 25 Old 10-12-2012, 01:49 AM - Thread Starter
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thanks for your fast response:)
i am only planning to do a 5.1 systems. 50%movie 50%music
does support 9.2 channel receiver sounds better than those 7.2 channel receiver when i only need 5.1 channel?
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post #4 of 25 Old 10-12-2012, 01:09 PM
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Since you only want a 5.1 system, then you should probably go with an Onkyo TX-NR818 or a Denon AVR-3313CI. The Onkyo has the more advanced Audyssey MultEQ XT32, while the Denon has MultEQ XT. If you are thinking of using more than one subwoofer in the future, then you should get a receiver that has Audyssey Sub EQ HT. You can get last year's Denon AVR-4311CI, Onkyo TX-NR3009, or TX-NR5009, all of which have Sub EQ HT.

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post #5 of 25 Old 10-12-2012, 08:16 PM
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Personally I won't spend that much money ($3K) on a Denon or Onkyo, at that price level you can get Anthem and some other non-mass market brands too. You don't need to spend that much, certainly not more for separates for the CM. More expensive Japanese brands only gets you more channels, more features you didn't mention you need. Since you're going to have one sub you don't need Sub EQ HT, even if you get two subs, the Sub EQ is only needed if they are non-identical in response and placed asymmetrically in the room.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #6 of 25 Old 10-13-2012, 06:21 AM
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The NAD T 777 is $3K MSRP:

http://nadelectronics.com/products/av-receivers/T-777-A/V-Surround-Sound-Receiver

I want Auro-3D 13.3 Surround!
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post #7 of 25 Old 10-13-2012, 07:13 AM
 
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Your speaker choice isn't very efficient. For home theater this makes a huge difference on sound quality and the amount of amplification one requires. Before picking the B&W CM9, for home theater (5.1) use, I'd seriously consider other speakers.

At your stated budget, for home theater use, I'd recommend a Denon, 4311Ci for the Audyssey, MultEQ XT32 as this in of itself, is said to be a huge upgrade. So for starters, for 5.1, home theater purposes, I'll recommend the Klipsch, RF-7 II's, the Denon, AVR 4311 Ci and go from there.

Hope the above helps.

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post #8 of 25 Old 10-13-2012, 08:55 PM
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The CM9 at 89dB is about average sensitivity and 95dB at 4m requires about 64W. The Klipsch would give you 107dB for the same W and distance, who listens at that level? To say 89dB isn't very efficient is overstating the case.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #9 of 25 Old 10-14-2012, 05:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

The CM9 at 89dB is about average sensitivity and 95dB at 4m requires about 64W. The Klipsch would give you 107dB for the same W and distance, who listens at that level? To say 89dB isn't very efficient is overstating the case.

At four meters, a speaker with a sensitivity of 89dB would suffer falloff of, at minimum, of 12dB which would work out to 77dB, not to mention the loss suffered by reproducing sound into the open nature of most listening venues which open out into hallways and kitches. Stating the obvious, any close proximity speaker reinforcement, would not be added back in until after the room and distance falloff is subtracted.

I spec my Klipsch, Epic, CF-3's, which are rated at 100dB, 1w/1m at 86dB at 1w/4m. When a movie track is cranked up to 0dB, set by Audyssey, MultEQ XT, the dialogue/action sequences are sound meter measured at 85dB-95dB (main listening position) as I've not measured for peak sound levels with explosions and such. The point, our measurements mirror expectations based on specs that are based on realistic falloff due to the open nature of the room and the distance of the main listening position from the speakers.

The point, you're correct when you post that 89 dB at the main listening position is not inefficient but to say that one who has a speaker system that has a sensitivity rating of 89dB, 1w/1m is going get 95dB with 64w's of power, is overstating the case. As to listening at 107dB (and you know this wink.gif) considering the THX reference level is 85dB - 105dB and the subwoofer standard is 115dB, I'd say pretty much everybody who goes to their local movie theater to watch a quality action flick is doing what you suggest.

If I've missed anything, please straighten me up.

The calculator above says one will have r77dB if a stated sensitivity of 89dB, 1w/1m. One would need 128w to reach 98dB, not counting reduction for room size and loss due to bleeding into hallways and the kitchen; contemporary, open room, architectural design. The point of my above efforts is not to bag on the CM9's but to realistically take into consideration room configuration and main listening position distance from speaker setup and what amplifier requirements one would reasonably expect to need if working towards THX reference listening level standards; proper speaker/amplifier match-up for expectations.

If THX reference level listening levels is the expectation, and one doesn't want to feel they're missing out, then, if using these speakers, they should give consideration to picking up a pair of 500w monoblocks, plug them into a dedicated 20A circuit to prevent current sag during reproduction peaks. If this is not their stated goal, then they'll be happy as a clam in a tidal zone using the ~125w's a 4311Ci is capable of reproducing, five channels being driven, to power these speakers with.

The above said, personally, my opinion, using these speakers, coupled with this AVR, I find the 4311Ci to be underpowered if one is expecting a consistent THX reference level listening experience. My personal philosophy is, never use more than 80% of what a piece of gear is rated for if you want things to last. In this case, using these speakers, to consistently reach THX reference levels, the amplifier section of the 4311Ci falls a few watts short of a full load, necessitating the addition of an outboard amplifier. Using this 80% standard, agreeing with you, using our 11dB more efficient Klipsch speakers and our AVR of choice (Marantz, SR5007), despite easily reaching THX reference level listening levels, one would be well served by the addition of an Emotiva, XPA-5; 200w x 5. Using the CM9's for mains, one would be well served using, at minimum, an Emotiva, XPR-5: 400w X 5.

The purpose of my exercise is to elucidate and eliminate the nagging doubts one has, when wondering or asking if one is missing out.

Question: "With these speakers, married to this AVR, am I missing out?"

Answer:.. "Not if you add a quality, powerful, outboard Amp."

Question: "Why?"

Answer:.. "See my above last few posts."

.............biggrin.gif

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post #10 of 25 Old 10-14-2012, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Personally I won't spend that much money ($3K) on a Denon or Onkyo, at that price level you can get Anthem and some other non-mass market brands too. You don't need to spend that much, certainly not more for separates for the CM. More expensive Japanese brands only gets you more channels, more features you didn't mention you need. Since you're going to have one sub you don't need Sub EQ HT, even if you get two subs, the Sub EQ is only needed if they are non-identical in response and placed asymmetrically in the room.

thanks so much for the reply.
Could you recommend some speaker and the receiver or the amp?
the budget for this system will be $10000.smile.gif
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post #11 of 25 Old 10-14-2012, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

The NAD T 777 is $3K MSRP:
http://nadelectronics.com/products/av-receivers/T-777-A/V-Surround-Sound-Receiver

anyone has experienced with those receiver??
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post #12 of 25 Old 10-14-2012, 10:51 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Your speaker choice isn't very efficient. For home theater this makes a huge difference on sound quality and the amount of amplification one requires. Before picking the B&W CM9, for home theater (5.1) use, I'd seriously consider other speakers.
At your stated budget, for home theater use, I'd recommend a Denon, 4311Ci for the Audyssey, MultEQ XT32 as this in of itself, is said to be a huge upgrade. So for starters, for 5.1, home theater purposes, I'll recommend the Klipsch, RF-7 II's, the Denon, AVR 4311 Ci and go from there.
Hope the above helps.
-

thanks for your suggestion.
i will find a retailer to listen this systems.wink.gif
if my budget for the whole systems is $ 10,000, what would you suggest??
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post #13 of 25 Old 10-14-2012, 06:10 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s169691 View Post

thanks for your suggestion.
i will find a retailer to listen this systems.wink.gif
if my budget for the whole systems is $ 10,000, what would you suggest??

In the simple, the Klipsch Reference series, a Denon 4311Ci (for the Audyssey, MultEQ XT32) and a pair of SVS subwoofers with what's left over. I would recommend listening to the Klipsch Reference Series speakers first as Klipsch horn speakers are not a sound that all people like.

Check with AVS, the owner of this forum, to see if they can get you the best price. From there, check with other "authorized" internet dealers to see what the best price is you can get as you should be able to get up to twenty or so percent off retail and if you go with b-stock, you can do even better.
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post #14 of 25 Old 10-14-2012, 07:38 PM
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All HT, or substantial stereo listening too? You should check out the NAD, it is more music-centric. Also, I would look at pre-pro in this price range. I was going to suggest a Marantz 7701, but they should have better room correction at that price. The latest round of top-end is a bit disappointing. I think there are others with more experience at this point.

My ears don't love Klipsch horns, but everybody to their own.
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post #15 of 25 Old 10-14-2012, 09:22 PM
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With $10,000 to spend I might allocate the dollars as follows:

  • Marantz SR 7007 7.2 channel network receiver - $1800
  • Triad Silver Monitors - (LCR) - $5000
  • Triad Silver Surrounds - (SR, SL) - $2000
  • SVS Subwoofer - $1000
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post #16 of 25 Old 10-15-2012, 02:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

The calculator above says one will have r77dB if a stated sensitivity of 89dB, 1w/1m. One would need 128w to reach 98dB

That's entirely consistent with what I said before, 95dB at 4m with 64W, so what are you really arguing about or trying to prove? Note also I said "about 64W" so it's not meant to be an absolute but implies other factors could affect the final outcome. Until you measure it in the real situation you can't say it's going to be greater or smaller than this number. It's likely to be both at different frequencies as most room FR are. The estimate is just a useful reference for comparison purpose with another speaker in the same acoustic conditions.

EDIT. Oh if only I use 10' instead of 4m I should be more or less spot on. Read the rest that follows too. smile.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by has7738 View Post


3 fronts at 89dB/1W/1m and a 100wpc amp peaks at 104 dB spl max 10 feet away. Changing to a 300wpc amp with the same system gets you to 109dB spl max. Remember, to perceive a doubling in volume you have to bump power 10X.

By the way, 104dB SPL max is quite sufficient, just a tad shy of reference max. Typical dialog in an HT will land at 75-80dB spl. If it does, the system won't hit amp clipping.

=
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

If THX reference level listening levels is the expectation

Yes, if, that's only an assumption, the OP didn't say so. You didn't mention THX before but your whole reasoning hinges on this. I don't listen at those levels. The thing to remember is 105dB is the peak, not the baseline listening level and good amps can deliver higher W for short periods so it doesn't necessarily follow that an amp that uses 128W to reach 98dB can't reach higher for short bursts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I find the 4311Ci to be underpowered if one is expecting a consistent THX reference level listening experience...one would be well served by the addition of an Emotiva...

Don't necessarily dispute that since I'm not in your room but you did recommend the 4311 before without mentioning the need for ext. amps as you're clearly stating it emphatically now. In fact I use an Onkyo 818 (Audyssey XT32) for the front height speakers only, an Arcam for the C and surrounds, and a Musical Fidelity integrated amp for the fronts. So I'm spreading the loads, not necessarily because I crave for 105dB but for other reasons. Adding a good sub also makes a difference to ease the load off the AVR and bring the SPL up.

I can turn it the other way round, since if you are going to use ext. power amps, then you should not limit your choice of speakers to only highly efficient ones. Surely that is a more flexible approach than to advise everyone to use Klipsch highly efficient speakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s169691 View Post

Could you recommend some speaker and the receiver or the amp?
the budget for this system will be $10000.smile.gif

You can see what I have above and more in my profile. I won't go as far as 'telling' you what you should get but you should formulate your own informed decision based on your needs after this thread and reading around here and elsewhere. I come from the non-mass market brand side esp. British equipment. If you have money to spend then it's more fun, you have more choice, you don't HAVE to justify everything for the cost effectiveness, you can afford to go separates, etc.smile.gif

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #17 of 25 Old 10-15-2012, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

Your speaker choice isn't very efficient. For home theater this makes a huge difference on sound quality and the amount of amplification one requires. Before picking the B&W CM9, for home theater (5.1) use, I'd seriously consider other speakers.
At your stated budget, for home theater use, I'd recommend a Denon, 4311Ci for the Audyssey, MultEQ XT32 as this in of itself, is said to be a huge upgrade. So for starters, for 5.1, home theater purposes, I'll recommend the Klipsch, RF-7 II's, the Denon, AVR 4311 Ci and go from there.
Hope the above helps.
-
While I didn't hear the Klipsch RF-7 II, I read it's indeed a very dynamic speaker that can play very loud with very little power.

I did audition other Klipsch speakers (the in-cabinet THX series with KL-650 ). My conclusion afterwards in comparison with B&W CT-700 in-cabinet series and my own B&W CM7 is that Klipsch THX in-cabinet was/is perfect for action movies, but also lacking for music. High frequencies are too bright and the midrange is below par (IMO!). You really need to audition speakers before you buy them (ideally in your own room), so I am not saying the mentioned Klipsch's aren't good enough, only that you need to hear them.

Then worry about amplification. BTW, I read that the RF-7 II can digest peaks up to 1,000 watts... wich would be loud with a 101 dB sensitivity...

I want Auro-3D 13.3 Surround!
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post #18 of 25 Old 10-15-2012, 03:40 AM
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My 10K set:

5.1 speakers:
B&W CM9 for LR
B&W CMC-2 for Center (do not get the small CMC, I have it and the big center is far superior)
B&W CM8 for surround (same FST midrange and sonic signature as the other three)
sub: REL R-528 for it's high level connection (speaker output, very good with music), get two if budget allows. I have the predecessor and it makes my CM7 sound a lot larger.
http://rel.net/products/serie-r/r-528/

AVR:
NAD T777 or Denon 4520 or Onkyo 5010

Source:
Oppo BDP-103

I want Auro-3D 13.3 Surround!
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post #19 of 25 Old 10-15-2012, 04:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

...so what are you really arguing about or trying to prove?

Absolutely nothing. Here's what I had to say at the end of the post, as to the purpose of what I posted and after you posted what you did, what I posted hasn't changed:

"The purpose of my exercise is to elucidate and eliminate the nagging doubts one has, when wondering or asking if one is missing out."

My above comment was intended to remove any doubt as to what the purpose of my post, was.
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post #20 of 25 Old 10-15-2012, 04:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Don't necessarily dispute that since I'm not in your room but you did recommend the 4311 before without mentioning the need for ext. amps as you're clearly stating it emphatically now.

This is going sound lame but the disjointed nature of the post might be because I thought I was in another thread of a similar nature and didn't realize this point until after I had taken the time to craft and post the response. On that point, or any other point of offense, my apologies.

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post #21 of 25 Old 10-15-2012, 04:58 AM
 
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dbl post.
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post #22 of 25 Old 10-15-2012, 05:50 AM
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If you're going to spend $10k, you should get 2 subs. If you get 2 subs, you need a receiver that can Eq the two subs. So that leaves the Onkyo 3010/5010 or the Denon 4311/4520. I don't think there's a lot of difference between these receivers so you should get whichever costs the least.

As far as speakers are concerned, I would post in the speakers forum. Receivers are more or less all the same, but speakers can vary a lot. I wouldn't spend that kind of money without hearing them first.
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post #23 of 25 Old 10-15-2012, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

If you're going to spend $10k, you should get 2 subs. If you get 2 subs, you need a receiver that can Eq the two subs. So that leaves the Onkyo 3010/5010 or the Denon 4311/4520. I don't think there's a lot of difference between these receivers so you should get whichever costs the least.
As far as speakers are concerned, I would post in the speakers forum. Receivers are more or less all the same, but speakers can vary a lot. I wouldn't spend that kind of money without hearing them first.

You should definitely get 2 subs. My bass improved tremendously when I added another sub. Now I have 3 subs and wish I could add another, but then I would have to start stacking them because of a space constraint.

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post #24 of 25 Old 10-18-2012, 07:07 PM
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Hello,

I saw that you had auditioned the B&W CT700 series. What did you think of those speakers? I was thinking of getting the 7.3 for a LCR setup with my B&W 605 for rears. I sampled it for music and compared to the CM9, it wasn't as musical, but was not able to try a Home theater setup for it. The salesperson says they were best for that and I was looking for other people's opinion before I order a set. Thanks.
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post #25 of 25 Old 10-19-2012, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joechuan View Post

Hello,
I saw that you had auditioned the B&W CT700 series. What did you think of those speakers? I was thinking of getting the 7.3 for a LCR setup with my B&W 605 for rears. I sampled it for music and compared to the CM9, it wasn't as musical, but was not able to try a Home theater setup for it. The salesperson says they were best for that and I was looking for other people's opinion before I order a set. Thanks.
You will have received my PM by now.

I want Auro-3D 13.3 Surround!
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